RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

FreelanceWizard · **07-24-2014, 01:53 PM**

(07-24-2014, 01:33 PM)Ckayah Tia Wrote: When I started roleplaying online, I played in MUSHes that only used freeform combat, and I tend to prefer that.

(...)

I don't care for RNG based combat because the combat systems tend to be pretty simplistic and don't cover the sorts of things C'kayah does - he uses poisons, he fights dirty, etc.

Ah, MUSHes. I remember (not exactly fondly Smile

) being a wizard on a WoD MUSH and adjudicating multi-hour and sometimes multi-day timestops -- and that was with mechanics support commands like +roll, +cast and +scan (for mages), +heal (for everyone), +stealth, +initiative...

I largely agree with your point about RNG systems. Most of the ones I've seen or been asked to use either go extremely simple in the name of speed or fairness and thereby ignore situational modifiers (applicable skill set, combat techniques, relative level of ability and awareness, etc.) or end up at tabletop levels of complexity and take forever to run, producing the aforementioned timestops. Funny enough, a lot of the problems game systems have in MMOs are similar to those that they have in LARPs, as anyone who's played WoD LARP can attest to -- which makes sense, 'cause MMO RP is basically LARP anyway, just in a virtual world. Smile

LiadansWhisper · **07-24-2014, 02:18 PM**

I avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid.

I have never really had a good experience with combat RP. Â It always seems like people get butthurt if they fail, or they try to do crazy things. Â I much prefer simply hashing out what would happen in the combat and getting back to the RP.

I'm willing to lose, but a lot of other people aren't, and combat RP seems to really bring that out in people. Â No matter what I roll ("Hey, I got a Nat 20!"), there are people who will turn my perfect roll into a benefit for them, instead of a benefit for me. Â Just not worth it.

LiveVoltage · **07-24-2014, 02:31 PM**

@Lia
I think you're experience may be a little biased. Combat RP is subject to different player mindsets and scenario's. For example, when most people think of fighting in a game, it means to maim or violently kill. However, this can be different based on subjective scenarios. Players who are just RP training fighting are more likely to play fairly and honestly due to the fact that there are no repercussions in loosing and it is just training for them to "better" each other.

While on the other hand, most RP fights are a result of usually conflicting personality's or ideals. People aren't going to want to get along. Some will want to kill each other. Its this imminent threat to their characters mortality that drive's them into a defensive corner.

Really, the only good RP combat in my opinion PC vs NPC on a forum thread, because there the violence and gore as well as how big the fights are can be as detailed as possible.

I think that people should look at it like this, if you know you're going to have a battle to the death with a person, avoid them. That way neither of you incite each other into a fight. That or just be the better character ICly. You don't have to settle EVERYTHING with violence. (*cough* though it does solve problems quickly. *cough*) In fact, a good way to turn the opposite of this in a positive it to try and find a common ground up to which both characters can relate, that way both characters gain a mutual respect for each other and nobody has to get stabbed/blasted with fire!Â :D

Berrod Armstrong · **07-24-2014, 02:44 PM**

(07-24-2014, 02:31 PM)LiveVoltage Wrote: @Lia
I think you're experience may be biased. Combat RP is subject to different player mindsets and scenario's. For example, when most people think of fighting in a game, it means to maim or violently kill. However, this can be different based on subjective scenarios. Players who are just RP training fighting are more likely to play fairly and honestly due to the fact that there are no repercussions in loosing and it is just training for them to "better" each other.

While on the other hand, most RP fights are a result of usually conflicting personality's or ideals. People aren't going to want to get along. Some will want to kill each other. Its this imminent threat to their characters mortality that drive's them into a defensive corner.

Really, the only good RP combat in my opinion PC vs NPC on a forum thread, because there the violence and gore as well as how big the fights are can be as detailed as possible.

I think that people should look at it like this, if you know you're going to have a battle to the death with a person, avoid them. That way neither of you incite each other into a fight. That or just be the better character ICly. You don't have to settle EVERYTHING with violence. (*cough* though it does solve problems quickly. *cough*) In fact, a good way to turn the opposite of this in a positive it to try and find a common ground up to which both characters can relate, that way both characters gain a mutual respect for each other and nobody has to get stabbed/blasted with fire!Â

Hmm. An interesting viewpoint.

I play a character who basically lives for the fight. Friendly, unfriendly -- it doesn't matter, he loves to fight, and he'll seek one out wherever he can. Sometimes this means I have to set up fights with predetermined outcomes, or simply have a good time free-forming with folks I trust. Other times it's in a controlled settings with simple attack/defense rolls where it's up to me as a writer to translate the number results into something believable and entertaining. I don't really believe that there's a right or wrong method -- simply an array of preferences and compatibilities.Â

When RP fighting, I want to enjoy the moment and do much more writing than rolling if it comes up. One thing I'll say though -- communication is a MUST. Whatever your method, whatever your preference, communication before, during and after a roleplayed fighting scene is the key to avoiding undue frustration. Make sure that you and the player of your character's opponent/opponents are clear on each step of the bout, and that you both agree on where things are at before moving on to the next.Â

Communication before the fight can easily root out undesirable opponent players so that you may easily choose to opt out of a fight. If not, well you and your fightin' buddy can lay down some ground rules and agree on a system to use. During the fight -- well I explained that bit above. Afterward? Well it's always fun to discuss the character's mindsets, strategies, reactions, upsets...and make plans for another clash, too!

This doesn't apply to everyone, but as a player whose character is MADE of fighting, just my two gil!

Eva · **07-24-2014, 02:47 PM**

(07-24-2014, 02:31 PM)LiveVoltage Wrote: Players who are just RP training fighting are more likely to play fairly and honestly due to the fact that there are no repercussions in loosing and it is just training for them to "better" each other.

This - a thousand times over! Â We RP in a merc guild and training is one element of that. Â This may vary widely from group to group though, and I have known in my experiences RPers who would get very butthurt if their characters lost bouts. Â While I understand where some characters might go out of their way to avoid this style of RP, there is a lot of good that can potentially stem forth from it. Â I can firmly say that Eva would not be the character that she is if not for certain spars/fights that have transpired over her time and the RP that came afterwards. Â One thing some of us remember fondly is when she somehow managed to topple the leader of a previous company to which she had belonged (we can safely call it a bit of a fluke) and the rather unusual RP that eventually followed as a result. Â Like most things though, YMMV and everyone RP's differently and has elements that they like or dislike more than others.

Gaspard · **07-24-2014, 03:10 PM**

It really depends on the person I am playing with.

I've used to go with a very story-driven narrative most times, where players really knew where each of their characters stood in terms of intelligence, raw power, probability of winning against another, etc. You could say we knew beforehand how a fight would look, and what the probability of a win/loss was. Moreso, we tended to only let those fights ensue if there was some valid, story rich return for it (We tended to thrown at the common assassin x120912 who just randomly showed up to 'kill someone', same for mass murderers etc).

That requires however people that are all on the same page, so most times that is only possible in a RP circle that stayed with eachother for an extended period of time. Nonethenless, most times we went with a Text, turn-based system to play out fights, omitting rolls and the likes for their degree of chance involved (Dice rolling imho only works if you go spreadsheet aswell, since that atleast puts chance together with a set of variables in favor/against your favor depending what your character is good/bad at)

Simple chance rolling without taking character specific traits into account tends to be too much of a wild-card for me to 'realistically' simulate a bout between two characters.

Many fights however often take place outside eachothers comfort group, and are initiated under 'emotionally loaded' circumstance. Especially if it is two players that do not know eachother well yet, no matter how good they are, you'll have a hard time convincing one another that character A or B should have a higher chance of winning (Even if it is that way realistically). You also have to factor in World-Realism. For example, many people believe, because their character has invested alot of time into sword-play, that their character can be at equal grounds with a mighty Thaumaturge. I'll play devils advocate here and simply say: It isn't so. There's a margin where intelligence and strategy has a foot-hold, but swinging a piece of metal will never out-weigh the ability to conjure up walls of fire or ice. Nonethenless, the Idea that their character might, infact, be inferior when it comes to fighting will unsettle many characters, and thus they will deny, even if the Roleplay environment would dictate otherwise.

So usually, you find yourself at an argument about 'Roleplay balance' against 'Roleplay Realism'. The former demands that, no matter the difference between two characters, they always stand nigh-equal chance of winning, the latter dictates that the one who, ICly has the better skills/better strategy-intelligence will win.

At last, there's even one more issue. When you enter a RP fight, you have no viable way to check if the character you fight against has actually any limits at all. Given roleplay on MMO's is not approval based (Meaning you don't have an admin to turn to, or a forum to see what kind of abilities a character is approved for), you end up having to trust the other person. Sometimes, that leads to people quite literally pulling random abilities out of their butt because 'lolmage', In order to get the upper hand, even if they sacrifice their characters integrity through it. You have no way to ascertain if he truly did invest time to achieve his abilities, or if he pulled them out of his rear, and likewise, neither does he in regards to you (unless you went the route and meticulously explained all the abilities your character has [Including skills] and their limitations).

That, in the end, puts me personally at the conclusion that the safest route to go with is to try and find a common ground before the fight starts (As in, pre-determination of the outcome), reserving actual Text-RP fights to people whom you truly trust, and where you know said characters abilities and limitations.

Rolling Dices only favors chance, never roleplay realism.

Dogberry · **07-24-2014, 03:55 PM**

All of this would be a lot simpler if SE just included a duel system like practically any other MMORPG worth its salt.

Eva · **07-24-2014, 03:57 PM**

(07-24-2014, 03:10 PM)Gaspard Wrote: Rolling Dices only favors chance, never roleplay realism.

FWIW, when I do use dice (not always) it is meant as a supplement to what I think amounts to common sense. Character traits, specialization, environmental conditions, and all the other factors that come into play that offer advantages or disadvantages to either combatant then serve to weight these dice rolls accordingly. I also use the d20 spectrum to determine the severity. Like in low light I might give Eva as a duskwight a slight advantage for night vision and hearing. Or after a particularly brutal attack I might weight my next counter negatively (e.g. need a 16 or higher for it to appear to be a success rather than an 8 or higher).

I use the dice, but I don't rely upon them. I let them be a guideline for me to introduce a random element to what would otherwise feel - to me - to be a scripted fight scene.

LiveVoltage · **07-24-2014, 04:00 PM**

(07-24-2014, 03:55 PM)Dogberry Wrote: All of this would be a lot simpler if SE just included a duel system like practically any other MMORPG worth its salt.

THIS. Ive been complaining about there not being a dueling system since day one of when I started playing. It would be SOOOOO much better for characters to settle RP fights like that.

I mean, there is no real excuse behind not having a non-arena PvP.Â Â Â :I

EDIT: AND IT SAVE'S TIME TOO... for other RP stuff and whatnot. Why sit there for thirty minutes typing when you can skewer a foe in 2 minutes time. ._.

Hiro · **07-24-2014, 04:56 PM**

(07-24-2014, 04:00 PM)LiveVoltage Wrote:
(07-24-2014, 03:55 PM)Dogberry Wrote: All of this would be a lot simpler if SE just included a duel system like practically any other MMORPG worth its salt.
THIS. Ive been complaining about there not being a dueling system since day one of when I started playing. It would be SOOOOO much better for characters to settle RP fights like that.

I mean, there is no real excuse behind not having a non-arena PvP.Â Â Â :I

EDIT: AND IT SAVE'S TIME TOO... for other RP stuff and whatnot. Why sit there for thirty minutes typing when you can skewer a foe in 2 minutes time. Â ._.

That being said (from the perspective of a heavy PVPer no less), a dueling system could be quite unbalanced. Further, if dueling were the norm for RP we'd be lending towards backwards progress in terms of exclusivity. There are strong and weak arguments for and against it, but having been part of enough RP communities where this was a standard, it lead to more problems than it solved on a social/community base. NWN, WOW, Ragnarok Online, SWTOR being primary examples.

Naunet · **07-24-2014, 05:10 PM**

(07-24-2014, 03:55 PM)Dogberry Wrote: All of this would be a lot simpler if SE just included a _________ like practically any other MMORPG worth its salt.

Could be applied to lots of things! /randomthought

Though personally I've never really liked RP duels except for silly training events with close friends. Love dueling, but usually not for RP purposes.

Fates Skein · **07-25-2014, 01:20 PM**

I like a good combination of rolls and free-form/pre-determined combat. Â IE: OOCly discuss what I and the others in the combat would like it to accomplish, who will end up winning, any major wounds/disfigurements we're open to, then use rolls to actually decide who hits on which attacks. Â I've found that my time in the Grindstone has really made the simplicity of a d100 roll appealing.

Askier · **07-25-2014, 04:05 PM**

My normal preference is using rolz.org. Normally I prefer a simple 1d6 system I can up with for my events. Basically, attacker rolls attack first them defender rolls their defense. The higher wins, defender wins on ties. If attacker is higher, defender loses 1 HP. Defender wins, no damage. Then the rolls switch and this exchange goes until.someone loses three ho at which point they lose and rp out result. I find this to feel more organic and makes sure the fight is fair to both sides.

C'kayah Polaali · **07-25-2014, 08:05 PM**

(07-24-2014, 01:53 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(07-24-2014, 01:33 PM)C Wrote: When I started roleplaying online, I played in MUSHes that only used freeform combat, and I tend to prefer that.

(...)

I don't care for RNG based combat because the combat systems tend to be pretty simplistic and don't cover the sorts of things C'kayah does - he uses poisons, he fights dirty, etc.

Ah, MUSHes. I remember (not exactly fondly ) being a wizard on a WoD MUSH and adjudicating multi-hour and sometimes multi-day timestops

That sort of thing is exactly why we stuck to freeform combat on AmberMUSH. The philosophy was "we're writing collaborative fiction, so if we can't agree on an outcome, write something else".

Zhavi · **07-25-2014, 09:14 PM**

(07-25-2014, 08:05 PM)Ckayah Tia Wrote:
(07-24-2014, 01:53 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(07-24-2014, 01:33 PM)C Wrote: When I started roleplaying online, I played in MUSHes that only used freeform combat, and I tend to prefer that.

(...)

I don't care for RNG based combat because the combat systems tend to be pretty simplistic and don't cover the sorts of things C'kayah does - he uses poisons, he fights dirty, etc.

Ah, MUSHes. I remember (not exactly fondly ) being a wizard on a WoD MUSH and adjudicating multi-hour and sometimes multi-day timestops
That sort of thing is exactly why we stuck to freeform combat on AmberMUSH. The philosophy was "we're writing collaborative fiction, so if we can't agree on an outcome, write something else".

Huh. The MUD I used to play on had a sort of half and half solution for those sorts of things. They were called duels, and if anything big was on the table, they'd follow a fairly standard format.

Each person would have three posts each. The starter, then the next person would essentially defend and attack, back, forth, back, and the ending post. There would be three judges. Those judges would vote. The one that got the most votes would win.

It had an interesting effect on combative rp -- namely, the person who won the most naturally became feared icly. Only others who had similar win rates would act tough around them. Adversely, unless you entered in to the whole duel-thing, your character couldn't really rp as being a fighter of any kind without essentially being laughed at. Either you dueled, or you weren't taken seriously if you played a combative character.

It was never really my thing, but one benefit of the system was that people played fair or they didn't get votes. Some judges would be less likely to vote for you if, during the duel, you didn't allow your character to take the damage from the other guy's attacks.

Some people even went so far as to go for DD - death duels. IE, whoever wins, lives. Whoever loses, dies. Which is fine, and all, but because of the ooc factor of it, even if your character is there watching any interference is sorta. . .frowned upon. I once had to have my character essentially sitting on her hands and watch her leader die because I was afraid of ooc repercussions for a very ic action (and, well, me being me, it's not like I would have been adverse to my character getting smote for interfering, but the culture of that particular game was err, not very open to such things and that particular fight was a Big Deal -- so I didn't do anything at all).

Hell, wars between nations would have battles determined by the dueling system, though not terribly frequently. It was definitely a very pervasive system.

Nothing will ever be perfect, but it's a system that definitely has its pros to go along with its cons.

As for me, I prefer the figure-things-out ahead of time approach with people I'm unfamiliar with.

If I've been rping with you extensively for over a year? Ehhh, let the rp happen as it will. Auto-hits and all.

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes