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Satisiun · **09-13-2010, 11:18 PM**

So. Like. While everyone is busy yukking it up over meta-gamers, I'm glad to see I am not the only one with concerns about this, much like Verence both rationally and extensively points out.

At what point, for example, is it no longer meta-gaming when a character realizes something is just a little off about that Miqo'te they are interacting with? Or that the character behind the mask has some sort of familiar tic, or personality quirk, or even a familiar facial feature or bodily feature not able to be concealed so easily?

And at what point do you look in the mirror and realize, "My god. I'm godmoding/meta-gaming myself!" by making it nigh-impossible for someone to get suspicious, curious, or wondering after a period of time of interaction between characters? Yes, if someone whom you have never played with before sees your character history and description and sees you're playing what is effectively a "Sweet Miqo'te Transvestite from Transexual Miqo'te Transylvania" comes up to you and within the first hour goes, "Something seems ... off, about you," then you have every right to call foul. Without a doubt!

In essence, the only way you'll ever be able to avoid this sort of problem is by playing in a very closed environment, with very specific people, who will always adhere to what you want in interaction without question. A bit exaggerated, yes, but you will never be able to free-form roleplay, or interact with characters on the fly without having to always worry.

That's just me, though. Huh

Asyria · **09-13-2010, 11:31 PM**

I think that it's all a matter of what is ICly done to hide the identity and how it could fail, which ultimately depends mostly on the player of the secret identity-esque character. Of coure there could be some metagaming involved in "you can,t find out cause I say so" but it should be defined ahead of time what is done to ensure that people won't find out.

This way, others can figure out if they would notice anything or not. Mind you, it -does- take a lot before a character becomes suspicious unless the disguise is poor.

There's also the thematic f the secret identity concept and for RP's sake, room can be made for that. I mean, we all know that Clark Kent is Superman, no matter how thick his glasses are. Same goes with an Eorzean with a mask. Spiderman is another story. You can't see an inch of his skin.

My character falls somewhere in between... there aren't that many blue haired Miqo'te around, but she relies on her acting skills (she loves watching plays and learned from those) as well as, like I mentioned above, perfumes and masks and things.
In the end it's a matter of respect, I guess.

On one side, respect for the player who wishes to toy around with the secret identity theme and, on the other, respect for the player who, without calling on crazy things like mind-reading and failproof sense of observation shenanigans, manages to find a realistic way to pierce the character's disguise.

To take myself as an example again, I figured that Balthazar's Favor NPC's, with enough spying (due to her meddling in their bizness) ,managed to find out who she was because they observed her long enough and managed to catch her going home. That's part of her storyline and how she joined the LS.

In RP however, I would expect people who think their character would know to ask me and we would then determine what to do. Mind you, anyone pulling any failproof shenanigans ("I read your mind so I know automatically") would likely be ignored. Someone who proposes clever ways about how their character would find out however (pointing out that "there was only Blue Moon and me, so how do you know this if you're not her, Azy?" for example), that I can deal with and enjoy.

ArmachiA · **09-14-2010, 03:28 AM**

I would consider it Godmodding and metagaming for the person with the hidden identity to never make it possible to find out their secret. A Male Miqote is going to screw up at some point, be it how they walk, or never dating, Reacting to something in a more manly way, just as someone in a secret society will always have something that identifies them as such (A ring for CB, a tattoo for Stormguard) and situations are going to rise up where your life is more important than your secret identity.. even if someone happens to be around.

It's a fine line really. A people watcher would be more likely to point out the weirdness of other characters, while a more selfish character wouldn't. If the selfish character suddenly knows your secret, it's okay to question it. A guy sitting in the back room who's been watching you all night, well he may actually know something

Mho · **09-14-2010, 05:20 AM**

I guess I'm just confused about why a male Miqo'te would NEED to cross dress. Is there anything shameful about being a Miqo'te man? The only real reason I can see for it is a sort of OOC wrenching things around to explain why your character's avatar looks feminine - but yanking things around purely OOCly to force things on the game/setting that couldn't otherwise happen seems... almost like godmodding right there, by itself. Either way there are problems... One way you'd have to constantly explain "No really, I'm a guy" and the other you have to constantly worry "What if they find out I'm a guy?!" It just seems like so much extra work and effort with so much potential to be misunderstood and messed up... I guess I'm just wondering if it's really worth it? Does it add something completely irreplaceable to the character you can't get any other, less messy way?

SamusKnight2K · **09-14-2010, 06:19 AM**

Oh believe me, I'd love to ignore the whole "guy dressed as a girl" thing, but we can owe it thanks to SE for that little bit. But some linkshells (I think T.A.L.E. for example.) require that if you're going to RP a male Miqo'te it has to be done via male pretending to be female due to the chest, appearance, etc. And after giving it some thought I'm just going to keep it simple: Keep the hair long, wear baggy clothing and a hood/hat. If someone finds out, whatever. Simple explanation is he only wears a padded chest so he can go about his business in peace. Sair would tend to keep to himself in public and all that anyway and at first glance someone probably won't really know. I kind of doubt smell is actually going to come up, and there's always deodorizing for that providing the spell still exists in this game too.

I've been overthinking it too much lately, so from this point I don't care anymore. If someone insists they can tell just by looking at him I'll cross that bridge when I come to it and deal with it then.

Asyria · **09-14-2010, 11:15 AM**

The important question however is... what if they give us male Miqo'te in the future along with an IC explanation of why they suddenly go out adventuring too)?

Trizzip · **09-14-2010, 01:31 PM**

Asyria Wrote:The important question however is... what if they give us male Miqo'te in the future along with an IC explanation of why they suddenly go out adventuring too)?

lol, this is what I've been thinking the whole time. I guess in that case, a huge RETCON would be in order. Tongue

Satisiun · **09-14-2010, 01:42 PM**

Brin Ahlrine Wrote:
Asyria Wrote:The important question however is... what if they give us male Miqo'te in the future along with an IC explanation of why they suddenly go out adventuring too)?

lol, this is what I've been thinking the whole time. I guess in that case, a huge RETCON would be in order.

That or enjoy your level 1 do-over. Laugh

Either one isn't exactly going to be the best of situations, especially if SE actually does integrate them at some point. And they have claimed they want to do so, but it being SE, one can never know.

Siben · **09-14-2010, 08:08 PM**

Hey Samus, in case you haven't heard I got linked this by a friend of mine:
http://boards.4chan.org/v/res/73123163

Of note is this image:
http://images.4chan.org/v/src/1284507643386.png

Gratz on makin' it to /v/. You're internet famous now.

ArmachiA · **09-14-2010, 08:51 PM**

hahahaha. Fucking Besaids, indeed.

Tadir · **09-14-2010, 08:56 PM**

I was talking to one of my coworkers today. She said she was on besaid. I was like me too! We should party together! She said, yeah, but all the fucking rpers chose that as there server, so I need to move. My old roomate was an rper. the 700 lb one? remember? Yeah, she sat in her room all day pretending to be a 14 year old kitty. RPers are creepy as @#$%.

I was like...I'm part of the community that made that decision...

Xzenivar · **09-14-2010, 09:04 PM**

Awesome sir, quite awesome indeed. Cool

What was her reaction Laugh

Tadir · **09-14-2010, 09:08 PM**

She went back to her desk and sent me the list of classes that was datamined and said, FFTactics Online? I responded, One can only hope.

Verence · **09-14-2010, 09:58 PM**

Back on topic, I guess the crux of the issue here, to me at least, is this... And please don't feel I'm calling you out specifically Samus, this is more sort of my general views on the issue as a whole.

If you don't want people to metagame, don't tell people things they shouldn't know. Everyone who roleplays with a character whose dark secret is public knowledge OOC will be forced to constantly second-guess themselves and weigh "Wait, should my character know as much as I do?" against "Well, could they have reasonably figured this out?" If you want to keep something a secret, the best way to do it is to... well, keep it a secret. Metagaming can be unconscious too, sometimes people simply aren't thinking and something slips out that, after the fact, they go "Oh crap, my char shouldn't know that." In the interest of keeping RP genuine, I prefer not to know things my character doesn't.

I'm honestly hesitant to RP with any character who has a huge secret that I know OOCly but my character doesn't know ICly, because then the whole thing turns into a giant metagaming tapdance and I have the constant fear of cries of "metagamer" hanging over me if I slip up - or perhaps even make an IC discovery I feel is completely legit! It has the potential for drama and for reactions and that's just not something I want to willingly subject myself to. Part of minimizing metagaming is minimizing the opportunities for metagaming. Any RPer worth their salt can keep IC and OOC separate, but mistakes can be made, misunderstandings take place, and feelings can get hurt. It's better to build a fence at the top of a cliff than have an ambulance waiting at the bottom.

If you have an idea that you'd like kept secret but need input and opinions on... Well, contact friends. Send PMs. Post a thread requesting discussion PMs with a general concept. There are also scholars, LS leaders, and knowledgeable people in the community whom I'm sure would be happy to help. I guess all of this simply to say "If people shouldn't know, don't tell them."

SamusKnight2K · **09-14-2010, 11:13 PM**

Satisiun Wrote:
Brin Ahlrine Wrote:
Asyria Wrote:The important question however is... what if they give us male Miqo'te in the future along with an IC explanation of why they suddenly go out adventuring too)?

lol, this is what I've been thinking the whole time. I guess in that case, a huge RETCON would be in order.

That or enjoy your level 1 do-over. Either one isn't exactly going to be the best of situations, especially if SE actually does integrate them at some point. And they have claimed they want to do so, but it being SE, one can never know.

I'd definitely be starting from scratch again. Since there's no PvP I don't need to be too concerned about level vs actual strength IC unless said characters were to spar. Take the character out of RP for awhile until I build the level up a bit. Alternatively I might just make a different character at launch and wait until the PS3 release before I introduce a male Miqo'te to give SE time to determine if they will be adding in males or not.

Siben Wrote:Hey Samus, in case you haven't heard I got linked this by a friend of mine:
http://boards.4chan.org/v/res/73123163

Of note is this image:
http://images.4chan.org/v/src/1284507643386.png

Gratz on makin' it to /v/. You're internet famous now.

Ok, I'm not exactly sure what the hell you're talking about that's just dead end links to 4-chan. I don't know if you're trying to be funny or sarcastic so I'm going to give you a benefit of a doubt here.

Verence Wrote:Back on topic, I guess the crux of the issue here, to me at least, is this... And please don't feel I'm calling you out specifically Samus, this is more sort of my general views on the issue as a whole.

If you don't want people to metagame, don't tell people things they shouldn't know. Everyone who roleplays with a character whose dark secret is public knowledge OOC will be forced to constantly second-guess themselves and weigh "Wait, should my character know as much as I do?" against "Well, could they have reasonably figured this out?" If you want to keep something a secret, the best way to do it is to... well, keep it a secret. Metagaming can be unconscious too, sometimes people simply aren't thinking and something slips out that, after the fact, they go "Oh crap, my char shouldn't know that." In the interest of keeping RP genuine, I prefer not to know things my character doesn't.

I'm honestly hesitant to RP with any character who has a huge secret that I know OOCly but my character doesn't know ICly, because then the whole thing turns into a giant metagaming tapdance and I have the constant fear of cries of "metagamer" hanging over me if I slip up - or perhaps even make an IC discovery I feel is completely legit! It has the potential for drama and for reactions and that's just not something I want to willingly subject myself to. Part of minimizing metagaming is minimizing the opportunities for metagaming. Any RPer worth their salt can keep IC and OOC separate, but mistakes can be made, misunderstandings take place, and feelings can get hurt. It's better to build a fence at the top of a cliff than have an ambulance waiting at the bottom.

If you have an idea that you'd like kept secret but need input and opinions on... Well, contact friends. Send PMs. Post a thread requesting discussion PMs with a general concept. There are also scholars, LS leaders, and knowledgeable people in the community whom I'm sure would be happy to help. I guess all of this simply to say "If people shouldn't know, don't tell them."

I'll keep that in mind. But anyway only those who read my character bio will really know that the character's supposed to be a Miqo'te male. I only asked about it here because I wanted feedback from others on what they thought about the hidden identities and others knowing more than they should. But if keeping the info hidden even from a posted bio is recommended I'll just do that. Or I might just post two versions, one as what people see normally and another with the real info hidden as a spoiler. That way it's there, but as a player you can decide if that's info you really want to know or not.

EDIT: Also sorry for some of my posts throughout this thread, I was just getting a little touchy about the subject and like I had posted in the start of the thread, I have had some experiences where there was an RPer or two who insisted they knew more than they should know. Of course these same individuals had tendencies to break all RP realism by making their characters overly powered and god-like in stature. It just worried me because all my RP experience has been in tightly-knit communities and this time we've got an entire server dedicated to RP. My experiences were always laid back so withholding the individuals who did, I never ran into many problems with meta-gaming and secrets known OOC. And yea, I know, slip-ups happen. I've been victim to doing a few myself but correcting them. My issue was with those who might insist they have some way to discern all this knowledge. My bad for not clarifying it and being so vague, again sorry.

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