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TheLastCandle · **02-03-2015, 03:46 PM**

10:45 for Merlwyb's part in the ARM 50 quest.

MadWater · **02-03-2015, 04:09 PM**

Eorzean firearms are nothing like firearms in the real world, based on my observations.
Garlean firearms appear to use cartridges, which contain the bullet, powder, and primer all in one convenient casing. These are what are fired from modern firearms. Eorzean firearms, based on appearance, appear to be flintlock or caplock firearms. These must be manually reloaded each shot, and the powder, shot, and primer are all separate, although might be stored together in a convenient paper pouch. The key difference is how precise the machining must be when making the firearms. The Garleans clearly have a leg up on their engineering processes, so that makes sense.

How Eorzean firearms shoot so quickly appears to be video game magic. I suppose if you had a breach loading hand gun and a lot of practice, you could go pretty quickly.

As far as punching bullets out of the air, well, that's just silly. Even if Yda could move that fast, and her fist weapons stayed intact, the energy absorbed by her hands would at least leave them so horribly bruised as to be pretty much useless.

As for armor, in the real world, firearms defeated even the heaviest of plate armor. That's why soldiers stopped wearing armor in combat until the invention of modern synthetic composite materials.

So IRL is a bad place to look for guidance on how to RP a musketeer/machinist/etc.

Gegenji · **02-03-2015, 04:15 PM**

(02-03-2015, 04:09 PM)MadWater Wrote: That's why soldiers stopped wearing armor in combat until the invention of modern synthetic composite materials.

True, but the point I'm making is that we technically already have that bulletproof material in the form of cobalt, according to the ARM cap quest. And it's understandably feasible for plenty of folks going into combat with a cobalt chain shirt (which was the crafted item in the quest) or something even heavier. Of course, it was mentioned that someone could just say "well my rounds pierce cobalt" and then the point is moot but... there's still a means of defense.

Which either means A.) the bullets are moving slow enough that a chain shirt can effectively absorb the blow if sufficiently sturdy enough, or 2.) Hydaelyn metals can possess a strength beyond modern synthetic composites. Or it's just a matter of plot and you'll survive a bullet if you're supposed to for story reasons.

TheLastCandle · **02-03-2015, 04:16 PM**

Re: Yda's Fists

Aether/Chakra/Magic: don't underestimate its use in a pair of skilled Eorzean hands.

MadWater · **02-03-2015, 04:36 PM**

I agree with both of you. I wrote the last post solely to describe how guns operate on Earth. They have to water down firearms to balance them in the game. As far as how to deal with them in RP: just get creative, there aren't any real wrong answers, I think. The godmoding problem just has a new face, deal with that as you normally would.

As an aside, alloys of real life cobalt (atomic number 27) are quite brittle and would make terrible armor. =P

ChewableMorphine · **02-03-2015, 05:19 PM**

(02-03-2015, 04:36 PM)MadWater Wrote: I agree with both of you. I wrote the last post solely to describe how guns operate on Earth. They have to water down firearms to balance them in the game. As far as how to deal with them in RP: just get creative, there aren't any real wrong answers, I think. The godmoding problem just has a new face, deal with that as you normally would.

As an aside, alloys of real life cobalt (atomic number 27) are quite brittle and would make terrible armor. =P

It's the same logic behind how Wootz (a real material) actually kinda sucks compared to other alloys present in-game, yet it's hailed to be one hearty motherfucker when put to use IG. And furthering on the use of ammunition fired from muzzleloaders, most soldiers shot by one die from infection rather than the projectile itself. So by IRL standards, the musketeer would be both the weakest and the most overpowered class.

The verdict: Videogame logic.

[source: a person with a muzzleloader and too many guns for his own good, spare me the anti-gun lecture, ya hippies]

Harmonixer · **02-03-2015, 06:08 PM**

(02-03-2015, 02:50 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(02-03-2015, 02:48 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: In a world of magic and aether, are guns really that powerful? I'm leaning towards "no" - at least to the adventuring populace at large. To the average NPC, a guy with a gun is going to be just as dangerous as an evil, power-mad thaumaturge.

I think Gegenji hit the nail on the head on this point: if guns suddenly became commonplace, their inherent ease of use would change everything for the average Eorzean. I'm going to be interested to see how (and if..) the Machinist lore/quest touches upon this point.

Except, as far as we've seen, guns have no cast time. Sufficiently powerful magic at least requires concentration and focus and time to channel. An unskilled lalafell child with a pistol can accidentally heartshot a master mage trying to summon Meteor.

Guns just feel like there's no balance to them after the first shot.

Bolded the part I was going to focus on.

Let me preface by saying this: I fully agree with you, yet something occurred to me.

Now this is for the realm of conversation, but someone with a highly magical or very simply poisoned bladed weapon could be just as dangerous. Be it dagger, knife, pins, letter opener, whateverthing. Considering the effects of the poison or enchanted weapon. You wouldn't need -any- skill to graze flesh with those sorts of things, or to point it at someone. Some poisons are nearly instant! Also what mage could fireball something that close to them, unless they shielded it- oi, it goes on and on.

The differences would be distance, but anyone who's ever fired a pistol can tell you that you can miss something right in front of you. But like I mentioned before, muzzleflash/debris can kill you alone.

Like I said, I don't disagree, it's just something to consider when it comes to this subject.

V'aleera · **02-03-2015, 08:03 PM**

I feel like the effectiveness of "mundane" weapons can also be hindered by two spells that, in my experience, go overlooked in a lot of RP: protect and stoneskin.

The mechanics of stoneskin are fairly obvious: a magically enhanced layer of stone encases and protects the user from a finite amount of physical and magical harm.

Protect, on the other hand, appears to be more of a magical ward that lessens the severity of any and every wound; a headshot that would normally kill you instead glances off and leaves you with a concussion, a blade cuts through skin but is unable to harm muscle or bone, the spread of poison is slowed etc.

Warren Castille · **02-03-2015, 08:20 PM**

(02-03-2015, 06:08 PM)Harmonixer Wrote: Like I said, I don't disagree, it's just something to consider when it comes to this subject.

While I don't disagree with your not-disagreement, I was mostly trying to refer to that idea that someone wouldn't have the time to respond to a sudden pistol shot. Warren's been shot ICly; It was a sudden thing that he had no reasonable response to. Things were normal, then suddenly not, and there's no way someone can reliably dodge bullets repeatedly in an RP fight. That's my largest issue with guns being used freely, really: If someone quickdraws on you, you're at their effective mercy to not be shot, barring some very selective lucky circumstances or divine intervention.

...though the concept of a flock of wayward children all wielding poisoned cufflinks is suddenly on my mind.

Harmonixer · **02-03-2015, 08:33 PM**

Jars of poisoned super bees too, we should be wary of the clumsy.

But yeah, in a realm of RP there's a lot more fun things than trying to make a close range one sided gun fight 'work'.

Jariana · **02-03-2015, 08:55 PM**

(02-03-2015, 04:09 PM)MadWater Wrote: As for armor, in the real world, firearms defeated even the heaviest of plate armor. That's why soldiers stopped wearing armor in combat until the invention of modern synthetic composite materials.

Admittedly this may have very little to do with the discussion on Eorzean firearms, but in history, this change wasn't immediate in any sense. Plate armor and firearms coexisted on the battlefield for quite some time, several centuries in fact. As firearms progressed, the response wasn't an immediate disposal of armor, but rather refinements and improvements to the metallurgy so they could withstand various types of firepower.

One of my favorite examples of this is explained in Wikipedia here:

Quote:In the early years of pistol and arquebuses, firearms were relatively low in velocity. The full suits of armor, or breast plates actually stopped bullets fired from a modest distance. The front breast plates were, in fact, commonly shot as a test. The impact point would often be encircled with engraving to point it out. This was called the "proof". Armor often also bore an insignia of the maker, especially if it was of good quality. Crossbow bolts, if still used, would seldom penetrate good plate, nor would any bullet unless fired from close range.

The article goes on to point out that full plate armor was used by commanders and such all the way up to the early 1700's. Now of course the firearm eventually won out, but in no way was it an immediate or even quick change.

Erik Mynhier · **02-03-2015, 11:26 PM**

(02-03-2015, 02:41 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(02-03-2015, 02:37 PM)Aldotsk Wrote: I always wondered about how people would take Roleplayers with guns/muskets in combat. Would you say that it's considered as overpowered comparing to knives/swords/shields/arrows or even magics?

At this point, we'll see plenty of Musketeer/Machinist roleplayers who'll be wanting to wing the pistols at their opponents. So I feel that it's something that should be concerned in the future of how we want to approach to this.

This is something that was posed to me about the Grindstone, as well. I didn't think a lot about it before then, but I've put a lot of thought into this between Saturday and today.

When RPing combat with someone, part of the appeal is the colorful flourish and counter, or the cleverly taking damage without being killed. Gunshots don't leave a lot of room for the Defense Phase of RPing. It's already difficult enough to explain how someone can dodge an arrow in close range (sub thirty feet fulms), and bullets travel far faster. At the end of the day, the posting comes down to "I shoot at you" and then it being either blind luck or inaccuracy on behalf of the shooter to rationalize a miss.

This causes obvious problems in a turn-by-turn scenario. When the extent of your actions are 1)it missed 2)it was stopped by armor or 3)it broke armor it removes a lot of the creativity.

That's how I feel, anyway. I'm not technically in a position to make declarations for the Grindstone, and I'll pool the regulars to see how they feel, but firearms are a little one-sided when it comes to believable combat.

A thought for you Warren. Why not set gunner against gunner only in the GS. Make it a rule to use non-lethal "rubber" rounds. Set it dual style, the judge does a countdown to zero as the fighters pace away. At zero both turn and /random, the higher number "shot first", and wins the duel.

Chris Ganale · **02-03-2015, 11:28 PM**

I don't have much of a vested interest in the Grindstone, but that sounds very anticlimactic.

Warren Castille · **02-04-2015, 08:06 AM**

Remember that the Grindstone is set up as a tournament. While dueling might work with appropriate attention to it, there's still the matter of having to square the winner off with someone without a pistol. Moreso if an odd number of gunners show up.

It feels like more hassle than it's worth. But again, not my decision, will poll the crowd, etc.

Gegenji · **02-04-2015, 09:09 AM**

(02-04-2015, 08:06 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Remember that the Grindstone is set up as a tournament. While dueling might work with appropriate attention to it, there's still the matter of having to square the winner off with someone without a pistol. Moreso if an odd number of gunners show up.

It feels like more hassle than it's worth. But again, not my decision, will poll the crowd, etc.

I just get this odd feeling someone is going to use "BUT YOU ALLOW ARCHERS" as a counterpoint to disallowing gunners.

And yeah, the gentlemanne's pistole duele format would be neat to see... but not so much at the Grindstone, where you're pitting people of different combat styles against each other. Pairing off gunners themselves away from the others sounds exclusionary, and may have just as many complaints as barring them altogether.

Which is why I think perhaps setting up a sort of marksmanship contest (possibly around the same time even) might be worth doing. I'm surprised there hasn't really been any already, since ARC/BRDs have been a thing for quite a while. Heck, if we really wanted to, we could include anyone that can throw their weapons (MAR/WAR and LNC/DRG) and even spellcasters.

That way there's an alternative to offer when they get turned away, might help take some of the sting out of it. "Sorry, we don't allow guns, but you could go enter the Pinion in Gridania!"

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Gun Control: How deadly are they in Eorzea?

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