RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Mae · **02-04-2015, 07:44 PM**

As much as I hate SE for them waiting over a year to toss out some rather significant lore bits on Keeper social structure (and in doing so nearly negating my Manqo'te's backstory and a year's worth of RP), this quest contains a conversation where a Keeper says that it is "unnatural" for a (traditional) Keeper female to 1) live with a male and 2) only lay/sleep/breed/whatever-term-you-want with only one male. And both of these points are things we see as being the norm with the one Seeker tribe we have represented in-game (U Tribe) and is indicated by Seeker naming conventions (Nuhns versus Tias).

Strict monogamy is also something that doesn't seem to be the norm for (traditional) Miqo'te. Seekers are leonine in their social structure, with one breeding male (Nuhn) to a population of females that are 'his' until he's replaced/disposed. Keepers are more like the rest of the Big Cats, where the males stay away for the most part, unless it's time to breed and then it's just a case of the female paring with whoever is handy/is the strongest/brings the best courting gift that time around. One male and one female pairing up for good (or until the relationship goes south) would likely seem strange to either (traditional) clan.

So, it's possible the following stances could be common for traditionally-minded Miqo'te's looking at mixed-clan couples:

Keeper F / Seeker M
-- Keeper's view: "She can only breed with him? And she has to live with him? This is unnatural and wrong." -- pretty much canon, as stated (again)Â by this quest, and could even apply to ANY Keeper female that enters a monogamous relationship with a male of any race.
-- Seeker's view: "Good job taming one of those wild Keepers! You going to try for more soon?"

Seeker F / Keeper M
-- Keeper's view: "... She so clingy... why does she want to move in with him? And why is she only sleeping with him?"
-- Seeker's view: "Well, he'll get more females eventually. Let's just hope he's stronger than other Keeper males and can keep them in line and from mating with anyone who wanders past."

Regarding any offspring... it might be possible that (traditional) Seekers would be more receptive/welcoming of a cross-clan child than (traditional) Keepers would be. Keepers might see a hybrid as the result of an unnatural union, where Seekers might see one as the result of a happy conquest or (if the Keeper is the father) "well, at least you can be sure that you ARE the father of this one".

------

Going back to Lala's, I don't see them as being "child like". I see them as being bubbly and cutesy only, like Munchkins from Wizard of Oz maybe, so the idea of Lala's being involved in a relationship doesn't get me on the 'yick' scale (unless I'm dealing with a certain someone who's sole drive is to RP a "cute Lala romance"... THEN I 'yick' because of other reasons). My shying away comes from the idea of Lala's getting it on with other races because my brain says "ohgodsyou'regonnagetsplitinhalf..!" and "how much enjoyment can you possibly get by throwing your hotdog down a hallway?"

V'aleera · **02-04-2015, 08:13 PM**

(02-04-2015, 07:44 PM)Mae Wrote: Strict monogamy is also something that doesn't seem to be the norm for (traditional) Miqo'te. Seekers are leonine in their social structure, with one breeding male (Nuhn) to a population of females that are 'his' until he's replaced/disposed. Keepers are more like the rest of the Big Cats, where the males stay away for the most part, unless it's time to breed and then it's just a case of the female paring with whoever is handy/is the strongest/brings the best courting gift that time around. One male and one female pairing up for good (or until the relationship goes south) would likely seem strange to either (traditional) clan.

Regarding any offspring... it might be possible that (traditional) Seekers would be more receptive/welcoming of a cross-clan child than (traditional) Keepers would be. Keepers might see a hybrid as the result of an unnatural union, where Seekers might see one as the result of a happy conquest or (if the Keeper is the father) "well, at least you can be sure that you ARE the father of this one".

There are a few points I'd like to address here:

Firstly, the notion that there is one Nunh in a Seeker tribe is for the most part incorrect. Nunh are supposedly responsible for the breeding of 20-50 females. Only a tiny clan, little more than a large family, will only have a single Nunh. Larger clans will likely have more than a few Nunh.

Secondly, a Nunh does not have ownership over the women he breeds; they are not "his". In fact, all things considered it is more likely that he would be considered theirs, as his sole purpose is to serve their biological needs.

Seeker tribes are not harems and they are not Lion prides; they are Seeker tribes.

I also feel that the lore does not support the notion that Seekers care about lineage in the same way we've been conditioned to IRL. In fact, it's entirely possible the notion of biological fatherhood as we know it simply doesn't exist in Seeker culture. While a Nunh should be respected for the prowess that earned them their position, why should the children sired by a Nunh care about him beyond that? And touching on the "At least you can be sure it's yours" bit, it's possible most Tia wouldn't even WANT to sire children if they felt they had not earned the opportunity.

What's more, beyond their naming conventions, it seems that Nunh have little to no actual possession of the children they sire, which makes sense: they have to attend to the needs of a bunch of women on a likely near constant basis. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one of the unique perks of being a Tia is the opportunity to experience actual, emotional fatherhood in the sense that we understand it.

FreelanceWizard · **02-04-2015, 09:46 PM**

(02-04-2015, 08:13 PM)Intaki Wrote: Firstly, the notion that there is one Nunh in a Seeker tribe is for the most part incorrect. Nunh are supposedly responsible for the breeding of 20-50 females. Only a tiny clan, little more than a large family, will only have a single Nunh. Larger clans will likely have more than a few Nunh.

I'm going to have to disagree here. This lore post indicates that 1 nunh holds a hunting ground "(b)ig enough to sustain the 20-50 females (and the few odd tia) which will follow the nunh". Note I say "holds," which doesn't necessarily means "rules" (nunh rarely hold leadership positions per the naming conventions post).

Really, "clan" isn't the correct term here. A tribe consists of multiple hunting grounds claimed by nunh (dev post). Clan is actually the term for the subsets within a race; Keepers and Seekers are clans of miqo'te.

I also disagree with the statement that nunh are unimportant to those they sire -- culturally, if that were the case, I think it's unlikely that the naming convention would persist -- but based on the Forgotten Springs tribe, I'd tend to agree that tia fill more of the traditional "fatherhood" role. Certainly, they seem to serve as administrators and trainers there (for all that the U tribe seems to go against the written lore to some degree). However, this is largely speculation on my part as there's no dev posts to specify one way or the other. Smile

V'aleera · **02-05-2015, 12:00 AM**

I'm not really sure how that contradicts what I posted. My primary objection is to the rather common misconception that there is one Nunh per tribe. While a Tia can expand his clan's territory and become a Nunh out in the new region, he's still a part of his tribe.

And when I say they're "unimportant", I mean in that in so much as to say that the women they mate with are not their wives (or their harem), and they likely do not have a significant emotional relationship (if any at all) with most of the children they sire. I mean, where would they possibly find the time?

While the lore is nonexistent on the topic, I imagine a typical Seeker referring to her sire (because remember, no males, tia or nunh, bear their sire's name) in the same way someone refers to their ethnic background:Â

M1: "By the way, who was your sire?"
M2: "Oh, I was sired by [X]."
M1: "No way! One of my friends was sired by [X]."

You can argue that a respect is likely to exist, but I find it unlikely it would be the respect and reverence for a father figure as we would know it from our own cultural perspective. The respect of an honored pillar of society seems more likely.

And to add one more thing I thought about while writing this post (not to make a point, just food for thought): unlike the typical patriarchal behavior that dominates many modern and pre-modern human societies where one of the prime obsessions and purposes of manhood is to ensure the persistence of a man's name, a nunh has no hope to "pass down the name" since the cultural construction of the Seekers entirely prevents that from ever occurring. A nunh's name dies with his daughters; even if he sires sons that go on to become nunh themselves they don't bear his name, and the children his daughters will bear will carry the name of the nunh that sired them.

Thinking about it, this significant cultural divide between Seekers and real world culture supports my own belief that the position of nunh is one of binding duty, moreso than hedonistic, hegemonic triumph.

FreelanceWizard · **02-05-2015, 12:14 AM**

I'll admit, I may have been thrown by the use of "clan" in your post, and for that, I apologize. Blush

I think we're saying the same things! Smile

As for the nunh position -- and breeding among Seekers generally -- I'm entirely in agreement that in the typical hunting ground, it's a matter of duty. Sure, the nunh may be Brad Pitt crossed with an MMA superstar socially, but ultimately, it's about preserving the tribe and bringing the strongest children into the world. Some of the NPC dialogue out in Forgotten Springs, I think, underscores this.

With that in mind, though, the nunh does have a lot of "soft" power and duty can be a significant social pressure, so I think there's a lot of opportunity for different stories in the tribal setting. The interplay of duty to the tribe versus one's personal feelings, as well as the behavioral styles of different nunh, is something I think is interesting to explore. A hedonistic nunh who's unstoppable in battle is certainly a possibility (and turns the "squick dial" way up), even if it's probably not the norm.

V'aleera · **02-05-2015, 03:23 PM**

I think I'm as much to blame for the confusion; while the individual Seeker tribes might fit the typical definition of "clan" it wasn't the best word choice given the prior use of the term in relation to the same suject.

And while I do often try to speak up when the notion of "Nunh as harem master" rears its head, I really only do it because that misconception not only demeans Seeker women and tia, but it also demeans the position of nunh itself; which as you say is the grounds for great storytelling and character building.

Mae · **02-06-2015, 04:13 AM**

I'd like to point out that I said 'one Nunh to a population' (meaning a group living in a general area, or community), not per Tribe. I'm fully in the camp that there should be multiple populations/communities per Tribe with Tias traveling to/being exchanged to new communities; overall population and genetic diversity being two reasons for this. If we only have one Nunh per Tribe, and 20-50 females to a Nunh, we'd possibly be looking at a total (traditional) population of around 1300, maximum. And if there's not a lot of breeding between Tribes, we would be then dealing with 26 pockets of potentially genetically-unstable humanoids -- Miqo'te aren't cheetahs, after all.Â

I'm not understanding why a Nunh wouldn't have a decent, fathering presence in his offspring's lives. Female Seekers are busy; they are the providers and are active in the day-to-day affairs of the community, which the Nunh has little-to-no involvement in. So, unless there is need to expand or defend territory or there is a female that is demanding to get pregnant Right Now, the Nunh would have more than ample time to devote to his offspring -- possibly even be the primary educator for the younger children. Tias would likely help with educating, too, but they seem to have other responsibilities to the community.
Note: I'm going off the assumption that female Seekers aren't baby-crazy and the Nunh isn't being required by the females to keep them all constantly pregnant and presenting him with 20-50 babies a year; in a culture where females are the providers, everyone being pregnant all the time would doom the community. Five or so babies a year would be much more reasonable.

Also... I wouldn't get too worked up about the use of the word harem. Despite what Western culture and anime genres make it seem (and granted probably how most people use it these days...), a harem was originally just the part of the house/household where the women lived. Yes, it was often secluded/forbidden for anyone but the man of the house to enter. Yes, there were wives and concubines housed in there. But not every woman in there had some sort of romantic/sexual link to the man of the house -- the female relatives (mother/in-law, aunts, sisters) of both his and his wives that he was responsible for lived in there too, along with his children, and the slaves/attendants that serviced them all.

V'aleera · **02-06-2015, 11:32 AM**

While a nunh might be capable of involving himself in the lives of the children he sired with a woman he was particularly fond of, I simply don't see how its possible he could do the same for the tens (or possibly hundreds) of children he would sire in total. Even estimating conservatively, five children PER YEAR is a lot for a single person to handle.

And considering the prime factor in becoming a nunh is physical prowess, I'm not so sure the typical nunh is in much of a position to take on the role of an effective educator.

Gegenji · **02-06-2015, 11:38 AM**

(02-06-2015, 11:32 AM)Intaki Wrote: And considering the prime factor in becoming a nunh is physical prowess, I'm not so sure the typical nunh is in much of a position to take on the role of an effective educator.

If it's still in the tribal sense, a Nunh frequently taking his progeny out to show them the basics of how to hunt or wrestling with them to get them into shape could help maintain his physical prowess. Even just watching over them when they play and stepping in with a few words of wisdom or a steady hand could help be an effective educator.

Caspar · **02-06-2015, 02:16 PM**

Yeah, no matter how strong one Nunh is, he can't possibly defend an entire tribe. I can't imagine him not imparting martial skill to his children. Depending on how many he's had, it could keep him extremely busy. Of course, the tribe is responsible for defending itself too, but I think the Nunh's strength can be more than physical, and still be mostly about passing it on to offspring, rather than taking an active role in fighting or leading.

V'aleera · **02-06-2015, 08:31 PM**

I'm now wondering whether it's even likely that a nunh would hold his position long enough to be a mentor and trainer for even a subset of the children he sired (while still holding his position). Assuming Seeker children begin combat training the intensity of which would require the instruction of the nunh at age 10 (and that's stretching it a bit IMO) that means that the nunh would have had to held his position as one of the strongest members of the tribe for at least a decade.

This leads me to speculate on two possibilities (which aren't mutually exclusive): because of the time it takes for children to mature, and the (presumably, IMO) high turnover rate of a position where almost every other male you know is gunning for your job, nunh don't typically train their own children but rather wind up training the children of the nunh they replaced. Alternatively, when a nunh is replaced that would free up a whole lot of time for what used to be (and possibly still is) one of the tribe's strongest warriors who would then be free to begin assisting in a greater capacity the training of the generation he helped sire.

With all that said, it is my personal belief that the majority of the child-rearing (including the training and guidance of young adults) in Seeker tribes is handled by women and tia.

Caspar · **02-07-2015, 12:32 PM**

I wonder if it's really always a constant fight to remain in control, or if it's not impossible a Nunh gained the respect of his fellow Tia enough that they don't constantly harass him with challenges. Not like "we're buddies, we elect you to be Nunh," but rather he's an old respected veteran and they probably will get their shot at his role someday anyway. Maybe it's not always a martial challenge? I think it should be most of the time though given the hunter theme of the Seekers.

And I wonder what would happen if a successful Nunh voluntarily stepped down. Can he even do that? Would the female members of the tribe be furious to have to "settle" for a Nunh that didn't earn the position?

V'aleera · **02-07-2015, 01:40 PM**

I think it really depends on just how strongly the notion of duty is tied to the position of nunh. An older nunh who is "allowed" to keep his position by the consensus of tias might feel extremely disrespected as well as angry that capable young men were willing to shirk their duty to their clan to provide the best genes possible.

The latter scenario would in my opinion would be determined case by case. A nunh stepping down just because they were tired of the position and felt like doing something else would likely be looked down upon. A nunh stepping down because of old age or injury would likely be more well-looked upon.

And while I certainly think female tribe members would not be pleased to ever have to mate with a nunh that did not earn his position, in the case of a nunh stepping down I can only imagine that there would be some kind of contest between the tia in order to legitimately fill the position.

Recoil · **02-07-2015, 05:50 PM**

Makes me wonder what their stance on homosexuality is.

On one hand, the Sun seems to foster strong, yet few, virile men where as the weaker and unsuccessful are cast out and left to either follow or waste away. By proxy, this means there are probably many single, emotionally-bare males that, by cultural pressures or revelations on their own accord, absolved to being with other men for emotional or physical satiation.Â

For Tia, this is obviously a good thing, as well for the Nunh since it probably means less competition. However, on the other hand, what are the females views on this? Do they see it as a constructive shift and one that defers to less physical conflict and inner-rivalry, or is it, to them, as a cop-out for the weak or those unwilling to tap into their full potential? From what I've read on this site, procreation seems to be a big deal to their culture.

This is for me, Â my thoughts on it where I try to keep any objective definition of sexuality out of mind, as the entire construct for sexual orientation seems to be a pretty minor thing in XIV. There's little evidence that attraction to any one sex, gender, or identity is met with rancor or ill judgement. The miquote just seem to value qualitative breeding over anything that can hinder the passing down of the gene pool, which is where I'm coming from with this.

V'aleera · **02-07-2015, 06:18 PM**

There's no evidence that tia are "cast out and left to waste away", and as has been mentioned before they don't follow either because the nunh does not lead; that really strikes me as an (understandable) bleed-through of real life cultural conditioning onto a fictional culture that is extremely far removed from any real culture or society.

There's also no information about romantic life amongst tribal Seekers. To say that tia are denied the possibility of a romantic relationship with women is to make a rather large assumption. Again, the nunh is used by the women in order to create children; his position does not grant him any authority or control over them, nor does it necessarily mean he establishes emotional bonds with them.

As for the women themselves, in almost every example of a single gender being concentrated into a single area homoerotic behavior inevitably arises. And given not only SE's stance on the matter, but also the dialogue of a certain Seeker npc, I think it's safe to say that homosexuality is a present and accepted practice in most Seeker tribes.

« Next Oldest \| Next Newest »
Pages (8): « Previous 1 … 4 5 6 7 8 Next » Jump to page:

Racial relationships

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes