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Verence · **10-10-2011, 10:58 PM**

WARNING: This is a wall of text. Like huge, holy crap, oh my god wall of text. However, it is intended to be taken as a whole. I would like to respectfully ask that before replying, (and I welcome discussion, that's the point of this post) respondents make sure to read these posts in their entirety and think of how each point relates to the argument as a whole, in its proper context.

My perfectionist tendencies have made me hold off on this for weeks while I tried to chase down each and every last trail I could, but with the leader forum poll in place, I couldn't have asked for a timelier lead-in for this post. Apologies to those I was unable to contact in time, but I have faith they'll be able to represent their views fully in any ensuing discussion.

Essentially, I decided it'd be neat to post a road map for how the RPC could regain its faith, appeal, and ultimately its use with the larger community, but then I realized something - I have MY opinions, but what about the community's? So, I went about interviewing as many community leaders (leaders of RPC-listed linkshells) as I could track down. I realize this isnÃ¢Â€Â™t a 100% representative snapshot of the entire community, but IÃ¢Â€Â™ll work with what IÃ¢Â€Â™m able to get ahold of.

Much the same, I did get a very interesting variety of opinions and views I'd like to share before I move on to my proposals, some of which are wholly inspired by these conversations. I endeavored to remain as impartial as possible, although in some instances, post-interview discussions ensued. I saw no real reason to log those since they covered points that will be brought up later in this series of posts.

All conversations have been logged with the knowledge and consent of those involved and can be posted in their entirety should anyone wish to read even MORE walls of text. I have attempted to balance viewpoints by citing as many people as I could, and am not attempting to endorse one view over another by their selection. (I have plenty of room for my own views in the posts below this one!)

First off, the community. Is there a problem? If so, what is it? Linkshell leaders had the following things to say.

Quote:I think the community itself is fine. Not great, can use some improvement (maybe a functioning hub for all?) but the game itself had a rough start, and I'd be surprised if our community was thriving while the overall player base dwindled . . . I've been a part of it since its inception so it's hard for me to put myself into the shoes of a new RP'er, it likely feels a lot less welcome and friendly to them.

Quote:From what I have seen, the RP community as a whole is a disaster, precisely because of the player exodus. I myself feel it a lot, as 95% of the RPers I've recruited in the past just kept disappearing soon after, sometimes not even completing the recruitment process.

Quote:...in general, this community is NOT friendly to new members.

Quote:Sometimes I feel as if RPers can be snooty about their RP. They automatically judge someone within a first few words and decide whether or not they want to RP with them. Some people are new at it. Some people have a different style of RP. ... I just think that we need to be more accepting of each otherÃ¢Â€Â™s styles. I understand avoiding godmodding and metagaming, but do we have to be so picky that everyone has to do it the same way?

Quote:It's meh . . . It'd be nice to RP more with other people, but when it comes down to it... I would feel like I'm intruding on most of the random RP I see. That or be extremely uncomfortable getting involved in any way shape or form . . . I'd have to agree with the premise.

Quote:On my end at least, I find it hard for members of [my linkshell] to do cross link shell events with other shells simply due to poor reputation created from members of other shells talking down on us and labeling us in a way that pushes us away from the community as a whole. I do my best to try to keep relationships between myself and the other LS leaders healthy, but the same can't be said about the members within each shell. I would say it is a problem, but not one that can't be corrected. I think we're just lacking the overall communication between link shells as a whole.

Another thing I asked was opinions of the RPC itself Ã¢Â€Â“ the individualÃ¢Â€Â™s and the members of their linkshell. The responses speak for themselves.

Quote:Initially, I was ecstatic about it. It was something every other roleplaying game I'd ever partaken in sorely lacked. But then once I was on it and got a feel for it, I was disappointed. Nobody would post on your events and things unless they were your ls members. It's gotten so cliquish, and I generally find it very unfriendly.

Quote:My personal take on the RPC as it is right now is that it is a joke. The concept of uniting the link shells on the server is one I support, but the lack of actual support from the leaders of the community and the perceived sense of control over the community by those running the RPC hinder that goal.

Quote:I think it's okay, though it probably does more to harm the reputation of rpers in the eyes of new people. As groups like that can be seen as elitist and/or unaccepting of other ways of doing things. I think a lot of people were initially rubbed wrong by a lot of stuff that was said there.

Quote:I know that I check the boards there, and I try to keep up with what's going on, but it's been mostly dead... A lot like the RP in game. People just don't seem to want to talk to each other.

Quote:People I speak with don't like it as an organization, and make a clear distinction between the RP community as a whole, and the RPC. I think as a community website, it failed, because of the lines drawn at the very start of it. ... The RPC for me personally is a tool for advertising my Linkshell. While it was intended to be a gathering place for all Role-Players, it is clearly not.

Quote:It's by discovering the RPC itself that was able to hope for RP in this game. I suffered from the lack of a united RP community in FFXI and I was expecting more or less the same here. So, in a nutshell, I feel that the RPC is important to gather, if not all, a significant part of the RP community.

However, when asked if the RPC was accomplishing this goal, they continued "Not at all. Right now the RPC is a place where linkshells advertise themselves and a dozen RPers discuss various things."

Quote:When it was first created, I loved the idea. It was awesome to think of a space where RPers could come together and communally build a world. The reality was a giant drama-fest to rival the cheapest of reality TV shows. ... I feel like over the past year and a half the RPC has done more to split the community apart than bring it together.

When asked how their members regarded the RPC, LS leaders stated many of their members found it irrelevant, intimidating, or outright distasteful.

Quote:I just had to tell one of my officer yesterday to start reading it, and most of my members as far as I know don't visit it at all.

Quote:A lot of people in [my linkshell] (members, not officers), when we've had group discussions on whether or not to use the RPC, have said that the RPC fulfilled its role in their eyes: they Googled for roleplaying groups for FFXIV, looked at the lists on the RPC, picked a guild and stuck with it.

Quote:We've a range, I'd say, going from extremely against even bothering to check it, to optimistic members who hope to still savor it and use it for the community.

Quote:They take one look at this massive site, seeing no one they recognize and say "Forget it." I remember myself when I first joined I found it frustrating, trying to remember what threads were where. ... It helps the inactive threads get bumped down and all, but in general, I think it could use some simplifying/thinning out . . . If you can't find what you need in a couple minutes, something needs to be done.

Long story short: The RPC isn't working out so hot right at the moment. Why is that? Without exception, everyone interviewed agreed that the RPC could be a useful tool but at present isnÃ¢Â€Â™t quite meeting its potential. What can we do about it? What SHOULD we do about it? This was the next question.

Quote:People getting over themselves and realize their actions affect more than just them.

Quote:People have to make a conscious effort not to judge. But I also think that being more open with events and such would help as well. I know that I know a lot of RPers, but do I know them all?

Quote:I think to help resolve, or at least work towards a resolution, is actually gather the LS leaders to meet on a more normal basis. As it stands now, we don't, and if we do, I haven't been informed of such.

Quote:Stick together, forget about all the drama that occurred a year ago, and try to think about the future.

Quote:Just burn it all to the ground. J/k. Or am I? I think RPC needs to be re-vamped somehow. It needs a new brand so to speak. It needs to quit being a center of drama, and feel welcoming to new and current RPers.

Sounds a little extreme, but what DO people think of how the RPC has been handled by the administration?

Quote:Administration? What administration? :p Since the disbanding of the council thereÃ¢Â€Â™s no more administration.

Quote:I feel that the site itself is well done, I think the main thing that had been poor is the lack of communication between leaders and linkshells overall.

Quote:...first and foremost the RPC should represent the entire community, that means ALL RPers with all their views, even if they go against the views of someone who pays for the web service. Two, it should NOT be used as a stage for the administration to exert any kind of power over the community. Everyone's voice should be just that and nothing more, that is including the admin.

Quote:To be honest, I think their presence is pretty faint. I'm not very familiar with them, and can honestly say with certainty, the majority of [my linkshell] hasn't a clue who they even are. I feel like they laid down a great foundation, but the community has strayed from what they initially wanted it to be.

Quote:I'd be happy to be a part of a roleplaying community forum that . . . was aware of itself as simply a community forum and nothing more, with no leadership and no stress put on its members to all behave in a manner put forth by false leadership.

Several interviewees declined to comment, stating lack of familiarity with the matter.

Verence · **10-10-2011, 10:59 PM**

So, what do we do with all this? The below may seem like stating the obvious, but just to make sure we're all on the same page and got there the same way, here's my reasoning.

Greater community interaction is desirable
Communication is the foremost way to achieve this
A centralized location is the best way to achieve widespread communication
A forum fits the bill nicely
Members of the RP community are not satisfied with the RPC forum, causing them not to visit
Despite RP community activity, the RPC remains quiet
We may conclude that RPers are active and communicating, just not on the RPC
The RPC forum is not achieving its purpose
Three alternatives exist: Allow things to continue, start a new forum, or make the RPC palatable again
Allowing things to continue as they are does not resolve the concerns raised
Starting a new forum may cause confusion and divided loyalties, therefore is undesirable
The RPC is the first, best known, and currently only of its type, therefore its use is preferable
For the RPC to fulfill its purpose, it must have the support and use of the community it serves
The community as a whole will not use a site that parts of it find irrelevant or distasteful
Displeasure has been voiced with the RPC's current state, resulting in a significant portion of the community declining its use
To annul this displeasure and restore activity, the RPC must begin to operate differently[/list:u]

Easy to say, but what does that mean exactly? To my mind, a lot of things clear from the top down to how individual members think of these forums and each other. There are a few core concepts that must be laid into the foundation of the community from which all other details arise. Among these, I see two main divisions: How the RPC and community ought to relate, and how the community ought to relate to itself. (This is actually part of the problem Ã¢Â€Â“ right now many want to relate but can't!)

Above all, respect others' choices and RP styles, but at the same time acknowledge and accept that their RP preferences may run counter to yours. The fact that we are all RPers doesn't actually mean we have that much in common! What people want to RP about, how, and with which type of character can vary hugely. If how you roleplay doesn't appeal to someone else, don't try to guilt trip them by labeling them elitist Ã¢Â€Â“ just move on and find someone whose style suits yours. On the other side of the coin, nobody gets to tell anyone else how to roleplay Ã¢Â€Â“ if someone is doing something you don't agree with, just politely nod, smile, and keep walking. The community is big enough for all of us if we're willing to talk without judging each other unnecessarily.

We do this for fun, to enjoy ourselves and the company of others. While it's certainly nicer and more inclusive to always RP with everyone all the time, RP should not be an obligation. Accept that for any one of a variety of reasons, someone might just not want to roleplay with you right now. Don't take it personally! In fact, I'm going to be extreme here and say that due to differences in styles, goals, and motivations, not everyone SHOULD roleplay with each other! But you should never make that call without first giving it an honest try.

Everything above carries to out-of-character, too. The cornerstone of RP and really ANY sort of interaction is communication. If you don't talk, you won't know. Misunderstandings often spring up, and many have in this very community. For communication to flourish however, people need to feel comfortable and free to speak. People will always disagree but so long as they do it courteously, respectfully, and with discretion it shouldn't lead to heated arguments or drama.

This attitude ought to carry to the administration, as well. Opinions will vary. Some will be strong, others not so much. At no juncture should the forum meant to give the community a place to talk be the very thing that silences or makes unwelcome members of that community. If at any point a forum administrator intervenes in a matter purely of the community, they have transformed a community matter into an administrative matter and that can lead to all sorts of messes. It indirectly creates a hostile, polarizing atmosphere that is self-defeating and counter to the very purpose of the forum. An administrator's role should be facilitative and encouraging, not restrictive or suppressing.

Naturally there will be times when someone is just plain out of line and in need of correction, but administrative action ought to be a means of last resort, used only after the individual has proven themselves unreasonable, disrespectful, and disruptive to the smooth operation of the forum itself. The community's confidence in administrative discernment depends on trust; trust built by the continued vitality of the forum.

That covers the basics. All the specifics below grow out of these principles.

The Nature of the RPC
OK, so. We've already agreed (by 70% majority!) that the RPC is not a governing body. Quoted from the poll:

Quote:The RPC will become a hub and nothing more. . . The RPC would hold no structure, no form or hierarchy (aside from basic forum administration in regards to forum drama and organization), and basically a normal community like the rest of them out there.

Well, sounds great! That's exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for. I basically see the RPC as the "least common denominator" Ã¢Â€Â“ something that brings us together, but above all doesn't get in our way when all we want to do is get some RPing done. By necessity, anything of this nature that tries to unify so many views, preferences, and styles that vary so widely under one flag must fail. RP styles vary. RP tastes vary. Viewpoints vary. Try to get everyone to toe the same line and those who don't want to will simply go somewhere else!

Let people disagree. As long as they do it respectfully and, if possible, quietly, we should be just fine.

Linkshell Identity
So, how do we disagree nicely? Well, for one I see a lot of talk about Linkshell A and Linkshell B, as if linkshells were the basic unit of decision-making and roleplay within the community. I really don't think that's the case Ã¢Â€Â“ individuals are individually motivated. People do what they want; linkshells aren't half as binding as people seem to think they are. Most of the time they don't RP with a certain linkshell because they like that linkshell, they do it because they like the members of that linkshell. Linkshell policy usually emerges as the result of all the members expressing and blending their individual opinions, not some sort of hivemind phenomenon.

Naturally, like-minded people tend to clump together but isn't this ALWAYS the case? They still have the capacity and right to disagree, and frequently do. Furthermore, often one person is a member of multiple linkshells and switches between or even bridges them at will. A linkshell is no more than the sum of its individuals, just as the RPC is no more than the sum of the linkshells in its community. I feel the linkshell-centric school of thought is inaccurate, misleading, and harmful to meaningful discussions of the RP community. Let's let each individual be weighed by their own contributions to the RP community, not prepackaged according to what design they have in front of their name at the moment.

Linkshell Leader Forum
Reference: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.ffxiv-roleplayers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2590">http://www.ffxiv-roleplayers.com/forum/ ... f=5&t=2590</a>
Almost every linkshell leader I broached the topic to liked the idea (and the rest were willing to try it), though I didn't think to ask about it specifically until I'd already gotten through several interviews. Oops! I can't be 100% confident on community views of this, but given that a lack of communication seems to be at the heart of many of our issues, I don't think more would hurt... Provided it had some very definite guidelines that everyone agreed to beforehand. Many understandably still have a bad taste in their mouth over last time, but I think with the proper framework this can be the useful tool it was originally meant to be.

Perhaps a bit ironically, my post in the above thread seems to have been taken as speaking against the reinstatement of a leader forum, but I'd actually meant it to support the idea. Why? I see the benefit of a place where community leaders can come together as one without distractions and random interjections to efficiently discuss and plan how to raise interest in getting the members of their linkshells to interact. I'm not alone in this, though I won't go claiming total leadership solidarity.

I support the notion of a forum only leaders can read so that they can discuss plot twists, shocking revelations, and other surprises without ruining it for everyone. However, this raises some unfortunate specters. For this to work, we'd need the community's faith that nobody will get up to hijinks. The following principles might help alleviate those fears:
- The leader forum is a restricted access forum but it is NOT a private forum. Just because everyone can't read it doesn't mean it's not public. Anything you say is fair game to be shared among the community at large. Post as if the community is listening; it probably is.
- Leaders have absolutely 0 authority over anything but their own linkshell.
- Policy and politics are not appropriate topics of discussion. Neither is the behavior of specific groups or members of the community.[/list:u]
  There are all other sorts of rules and specifics we can debate for hours, but I'll leave that to others to decide.
  
  Community Epic
  Reference: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.ffxiv-roleplayers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2401">http://www.ffxiv-roleplayers.com/forum/ ... f=2&t=2401</a>
  This came up several times over the course of my discussions. A couple people wondered whatever happened to it, one even suggested starting one as a means to help unify the community. Another said:
  
  Quote:I do not like the idea of a 'community epic' where some other guild leader controls where our guild fits in to a world. There already is a community epic: it's called Final Fantasy XIV.
  I'll be honest, I was 100% opposed to even the idea of a "community epic" until quite recently. I'm still pretty uncomfortable with it, but one of the linkshell leaders with whom I spoke proposed a framework I'd be able to work with (more on that later). "But why don't you like it?" you may ask. Well, the reason is simple... but wordy. If you've read this far, did you expect any different?
  
  As proposed, I feel the community epic missed an essential mark. Specifically, it sought to create alterations to the setting that the entire community was expected to acknowledge Ã¢Â€Â“ it even went so far as to use the term 'canon'. To my mind, there is one determinant of canon only, and that is Square-Enix. Anything and everything we do as roleplayers is by consent and agreement of those roleplaying. No one can force anyone else to acknowledge something they do not agree with if it is not supported by official Square-Enix lore.
  
  The current format of the community epic forces a Hobson's Choice to anyone who doesn't fancy the premise: You are a member of the roleplaying community. Will you roleplay something you'd prefer not to, or be cut off from the community's newly-divergent setting? While this would certainly encourage interaction among some, it would force isolation on others! In my opinion, the community epic failed because it backfired.
  
  Does this mean we can't do community epics? They can still be a fun, engaging way to draw in people from all over the community BUT they must be carefully and tactfully handled; the RPC itself should remain the neutral hub it professes to be, not placing official seals of approval or validation upon anything. Participation would be completely voluntary, and the plot should not include any events that change or affect canon setting in such a way that anyone who's not interested is forced to awkwardly choose to either acknowledge or ignore it.
  
  With all the pressure off of both sides Ã¢Â€Â“ planners don't have to make something grandiosely sweeping and epic and everyone else can join in or stay on the sidelines as they please Ã¢Â€Â“ there will hopefully be a more relaxed OOC atmosphere that encourages people to take a peek without fear of it overturning a world they rather liked, actually.
  
  Events and Alternatives to Getting Involved
  This leads neatly into the next two points. I think the way we as a community think of events could use a very minor adjustment. Nothing overwhelming, promise.
  
  I notice that the community is very event-centric. It makes sense after all, it gets everyone together and roleplaying in the same place at the same time with a common draw! However, I feel there is an almost-exclusive focus on events that underplays the importance of the event's lesser-appreciated sibling, the plot arc. But didn't we just cover that with the talk of community epics?
  
  No, I'm talking about something much smaller scale. Something that may or may not involve your character directly, something that develops gradually over the course of one or many RPs. Often these happen naturally as your character develops and draws friends and companions into their personal story but I'm not quite talking about that. I'm talking about coming up with a plot thread for the purpose of drawing in and engaging others.
  
  As with everything else, OOC communication is key here; it's entirely possible that you toss out some tantalizing IC hint that nobody picks up on because nobody's sure what to make of it! Approach people you'd like to roleplay with and give them an OOC nudge. Run the premise by them without giving away too many of the details and see if they're interested. Discuss what might interest them and their character and adapt on the fly. It doesn't even have to be anything complicated, it could be as simple as "Hey, I notice you're a pugilist ICly. So am I! Maybe the Silver Mirage assigned us to the same job?" See what they think! You could even toss up a post on these very forums saying "I'm thinking of doing a plot thread / mini event / etc along these lines, who would be interested?" Events aren't the only way to meet new people. If they don't seem interested, it's probably not because they're a jerk or because they hate you Ã¢Â€Â“ it may just not be their style. Respect that and try something or someone else.
  
  Despite that, events are still a pretty good way to meet new people and their importance should not be discounted. Keep 'em coming! But realize that not every character will be interested in your event. Heck, not every player will be interested in your event. If not many people show up, don't be disheartened. Just keep trying! Lack of attendance is not an indication of poor community health or interest, it's only an indication of lack of interest or just plain poor availability for that event. The key to a thriving climate of events is to have enough that are varied enough that everyone will find something that they'd like to attend, during a time they're able to attend.

Verence · **10-10-2011, 10:59 PM**

Discussion Etiquette
I hate doing this Ã¢Â€Â“ honestly, I do. But given our community's history, I think it would be a bit irresponsible to encourage a discussion without laying a few ground rules everyone can agree to. By posting in this thread, you signify that you have read and agree to all the rules of discussion etiquette. Kylin has graciously agreed to enforce these to keep the tone civil and friendly as possible, though we both sincerely hope he won't need to.

Dispute the argument, not the arguer. Don't get too personally entangled in your own views and remember you're not debating to see who wins, but to see which idea is better supported. Acknowledge the possibility that you MIGHT be wrong and if someone else disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they are attacking you personally. Respect works both ways.
No veiled/underhanded/backhanded/etc insults, put-downs, accusations, jabs, or the like. Especially no "some people" or "parts of the community" or "certain linkshells" if you're actually referring to someone or something specific. Chances are we all know who you mean, and if we don't, the misunderstandings that result could make things even worse. If you won't name names, don't play games. Discussions are to be kept open and straightforward.
No explicit insults, put-downs, accusations, jabs, or the like. Probably obvious, but included for completeness' sake!
No assumptions about anyone else's motives or emotional state. If their points are valid then it doesn't matter if they posted out of the depths of a boundless rage because someone else's views would prevent them from kicking puppies, their points are still valid.
Don't tell someone else what they said. Let their posts speak for themselves; often times the way they phrased it is vital to understanding how they meant it. If you're not sure, ask! Assumptions are the bane of communication.
No accusations of immaturity. It's, frankly, pretty immature. If you're mature enough to respectfully and constructively contribute to this discussion, you're mature enough to have your contributions taken seriously.[/list:u]

Discussion Suggestions
These won't be enforced, they're just little tips to help the discussion along!
- Support your views, if possible. Well-reasoned arguments are much more compelling and much harder to shoot down. Don't jump straight to a conclusion without first going over how you got there.
- Avoid kneejerk posting. After you write a post, take a quick time out before you hit 'submit'. See if it sounds level-headed and reasonable when you come back.
- Try not to sulk. We know the community has had its rough spots, but this is neither the place to settle scores nor nurse old wounds. We need to discuss how to move forward, now how to slide back.
- If you think someone IS sulking, calling them on it will probably just start an argument. Politely ignore it and move on.[/list:u]
  
  Closing
  Bet you thought I'd never get here, eh? I do like the occasional surprise. I expect this will probably prompt some discussion, though I have no idea how much. Frankly, the more talking this results in, the happier I'll be. Why? Because at the end of the day, I want the RPC to be somewhere I can go free of drama, guilt trips, politics, and snark to connect and communicate with the many and varied members of our community. I don't want to sweat the small stuff. I want to roleplay.
  
  I leave the rest of this discussion to the RPC. But who is the RPC? You are. Sitting in your chair, checking your iPhone at the bus stop, with your laptop in the airport terminal. Every person reading this is the RPC, if they only choose to be. Your voice needs to be heard. If for whatever reason you have an opinion but do not wish to post publicly, PM someone! A friend, me, Kylin, anyone Ã¢Â€Â“ maybe even all of the above. But don't lose this opportunity to help guide the future course of roleplaying on Besaid.

Kylin · **10-11-2011, 05:53 AM**

As part of the joint effort with invoking this discussion, Verence and I have both agreed to largely remain out of this thread from here on out. This is being done to avoid having too much influence over the communityÃ¢Â€Â™s thoughts. As such, it is pertinent that you all voice your opinions as *individuals* rather than allowing a leader or friend speak on behalf of you. This of course does not mean linkshell leaders shouldnÃ¢Â€Â™t join the discussions as well (as they should). But for the sake of this thread, everyone should be viewed as speaking for themselves only and we can only hope that this fosters greater community participation in this discussion.

Please make note of the etiquette mentioned in the above post before making any posts. Namedropping, finger-pointing, and passive-aggressive taunts/attacks on *anyone* are not allowed. Doing any of these will simply resurrect old emotions and start battles anew. In fact, it is highly advised to avoid mentioning much about the past at all when possible. This thread is about the future and moving forward. While we may have to look back to the past here and there to do that, one should not dwell on said past. Should there be any namedropping or finger-pointing, I will not hesitate to enforce the etiquette mentioned in the above post by deleting that portion of your post. As stated in the original post, you agree to the terms set forth simply by posting in this thread. And one of the original RPC forum rules is about respect. Please show it here especially. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, regardless of how strong it is, but nobody is welcome to personal attacks.

Should there be a direct question toward myself or Verence individually, we will quickly answer it and move back out of this thread. However, I wouldnÃ¢Â€Â™t imagine that there are direct questions about anything unless itÃ¢Â€Â™s something regarding clarification.

Again, it is imperative that you let your voice be heard. If you truly wish the community to get back on its feet, please speak up and give your opinions on what can be done to do so. You may not even realize that your single post could have a tremendous impact on the direction of things!

Thank you all and we look forward to the possible discussion that begins here, as well as the years of wonderful RP interactions ahead!

Darkvalkyr · **10-11-2011, 05:38 PM**

After having those incredibly long posts, I can sit down and say that (although I already am sitting down) I would like the RPC to be that central hub of RPers.

Doesn't matter if we're in different LSes - they should be in character as much as our own characters are. We're on Besaid the 'RP server' as we claimed at the start. We should be such. The RPC can be that place we all go to arrange small things, set up potential RP hooks, arrange big events, story arcs or mini-plots. We've got people from all around the world here, maybe we'd end up finding pals and buddies from other LSes that live across the street or something that we can RP at similar times on regular basis.

I also wonder if there's any interest shared about an OOC RPC pearl where we can just chill out and chat ingame without having to worry about constant OOC spam amongst RPers.

Merri · **10-12-2011, 02:45 PM**

I agree with the sentiment that the RPC should simply be a hub for roleplayers. A place for fair discussion, a place for planning. Hell, even a place for simply socializing OOCly.

Personally, I've always thought most roleplayers to be a fickle bunch - myself included to an extent. With that, I believe there's the possibility to salvage what's left of the RPC forums and turn it into something great once again. I agree with the idea that the RPC has garnered a stigma that seems to just be warding everyone off, save for a small handful of people. It also seems to me, personally, that there still is quite a bit of animosity floating around. Some people just don't click, it's just human nature and it's completely understandable. On a large enough scale, though, it can end up dragging an entire community down, albeit slowly.

First off - as stated in the OPs, I think everyone needs to be able to set aside their differences if this is going to work. Any past drama, any grievances, any arguments need to just be let go. If we can't all get along, it's just not going to work out.

Secondly, I believe people in general are going to need to just go the extra mile every now and again. It's fine to get involved with a linkshell, and get involved with their RP. It's fine to make a clique of friends, and develop storylines with those characters. RP gets richer over time, and we all strive for that. Yet when groups and groups of players constantly roleplay with the same people over and over, it begins to fade out those who aren't involved. I'm not saying people don't roleplay with strangers or acquaintances - I see it happen all the time. What I am saying though is I think we could afford to see it more often. Have public tavern nights, hold masquerades and auctions like we used to. Places where everyone can just mix and mingle and not be afraid of being barred out of a conversation because they're not a part of a specific clique or linkshell. Again, I'll reiterate that I don't think that's a bad thing - we could just afford to see it less. The only way that's possible is if people bite the bullet every now and again, and say "Hey, I'm going to go strike up a conversation with that stranger and get them involved instead of roleplaying with my regulars today." However, it shouldn't feel like a chore. Not everyone might be cut out for the idea, and that's fine.

Even if it starts out slow, getting that mentality running day by day will form bonds between people who could have never bonded in the first place. I think that's a first step in uniting our community. Actually putting ourselves out there and meeting others - even if we're content with what we have.

I think once we start bonding again, things will slowly start to fall back into place. People might be more inclined to spark up events and story-arcs with strangers, and the RPC forums might end up having more use over time. That is, if we can get over the hurdle of it's stigma. I don't have many suggestions for that other than attempting to convince people to just put it aside and take a peek back inside for a change.

In regards to the OOC shell idea. It's been attempted before a few times, even by myself, and I think we should maybe(I'm not even sure if it's a good idea, myself. Just putting it out there for now.) look down the alley of once again forming one. A shell with absolutely zero ties to any one linkshell - just simply a neutral ground for all roleplayers on Besaid to have a channel of conversation in-game if they want it - not everyone will. No leader, no officers - just simply people who can invite others into the shell since that's necessary. Some might argue that it kind of phases out the point of the RPC, and I can understand that point of view completely - however I believe that actually being able to get in touch with a bulk of the community hassle-free would be more of a boon than a hindrance. People would hopefully still use the RPC for large planning, discussions, and getting in touch with people who they were unable to get in touch with in game. Again, I know this is a hot-button subject with quite a few opposing views, so I'd love to hear other opinions on it.

Smiling River · **10-12-2011, 06:46 PM**

Settling the Past

Quote:To annul this displeasure and restore activity, the RPC must begin to operate differently

The final point of VerenceÃ¢Â€Â™s Ã¢Â€ÂœwhatÃ¢Â€Â™s to be doneÃ¢Â€Â list, top of the second post.

I agree with it completely, however IÃ¢Â€Â™ve not seen any evidence that the RPC will operate differently. The reason many people have a negative view of the RPC does stem back to the arguments between two (general) camps of RPers in the past. While I myself am willing to let it go, I have to make sure that something has been learned from that conflict (or a series of conflicts) before I do that.

I want to improve the community, but I cannot say that the RPC at its core is any different than it was before, from an administrative side of things. To avoid circumlocution, Kylin, can you elaborate on your position with regards to these forums? Does your status as the administrator, provider of bandwith/monthly forum charge going to matter if there is (and there are bound to be) disagreements? Will you argue points one way or the other using your title as administrator? Are your personal views separate from your position as admin of the boards?

I personally have lost that connection a long time ago. Back then, when I contributed on the RPC, I was under the impression that I was helping the community as a whole, but when it was made clear that itÃ¢Â€Â™s not exactly a place which was welcoming of every RPer, but more like an administrator-controlled forum (which sat in the camp I and others were opposed to), I and many many others stopped contributing because it no longer felt like I was contributing to the RP community, but rather creating content for someoneÃ¢Â€Â™s forum disguised as a community website.

As you can see, itÃ¢Â€Â™s easy to say Ã¢Â€ÂœletÃ¢Â€Â™s just move onÃ¢Â€Â but really Ã¢Â€Â“ no one wants to walk into the same BS again, even if they have the slightest interest in doing more as a community.

What individual Role-Players ought to do?

I dislike prescribing to people how they should spend their time. Yes, I have my opinions of what you ought to do with your time, but I am not you, so itÃ¢Â€Â™s pointless for me to try to change what anyone does. Even if I could take up your puppet strings and make you do as I say, you wonÃ¢Â€Â™t be happy, and then what the hell is the point of playing this game? This is why I avoid making arguments similar RainÃ¢Â€Â™s. They are completely centered on the preferences and opinions of the person making the suggestions.

Changing it up

Then how do we change the behavior of individuals? Here are three ways I can think of off the top of my head.

>Re-branding. From changing the name of the community website, to re-launching it as a place welcoming everyone, with defined rules/guidelines for participation for both the users and administrator(s)/moderators.
>Changing the look of the site/forums. Tied to the re-branding, currently the forums are not the pinnacle of aesthetic excellence. Changing it up for the better may also influence activity, to a more psychological point; it would Ã¢Â€Â˜feelÃ¢Â€Â™ different.
>Encouraging activity via the leaders of the community. Instead of prescribing every person with guidelines on what they ought to do and how they should RP, leaders of the community (LS leaders, people who want to be proactive freelancers, etc) should get to know one another, and evaluate if itÃ¢Â€Â™s worth investing the time/energy/creativity into making cross-LS RP events/story archs etc. via the forums. If we all had the same ideas of what Ã¢Â€Â˜goodÃ¢Â€Â™ and Ã¢Â€Â˜funÃ¢Â€Â™ RP is, this would not be needed, but unfortunately when you open up RP to a group of people who do not share your views, it ruins your RP, story, experience, and character progression. No one wants that. So a way to avoid that would be to actually communicate, thatÃ¢Â€Â™s what this forum is for, right? ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s one reason I am for the leader-only boards being added. ItÃ¢Â€Â™s an outlet which can generate some RP, with no real loss if it doesnÃ¢Â€Â™t.

There are other ways which I am sure are out there, the above were just off the top of my head. IÃ¢Â€Â™d like to hear more suggestions.

Encourage website participation, not RP

IÃ¢Â€Â™d like to make sure that we remain on the topic of the RPC, instead of RP in general. Individual RPers (of various/multiple linkshells) have been RPing together, despite the drop in activity on these boards. This means that encouraging people to RP with Ã¢Â€Â˜strangersÃ¢Â€Â™ in game will not necessarily bring anything to this website. RP will go on, regardless if this site is used or not.

As a sidenote, let's not guilt-trip people who chose not to RP with every single person. If you're the type not to get bothered by jarring styles, or enjoy massive gatherings, and tavern RP - do not fault others for simply not finding those things fun to do. I personally knew RPers who hated groups larger than five. I myself avoid RPing with certain individuals because of prior experiences which weren't fun/interesting for me. It's not a bad thing. I think if we all really did RP with everyone else, the dramz from miscommunication and varying perspectives would far outweigh any benefits.

Incentives

What the RPC should aim for is to consolidate various ways people can/do interact in one place, while welcoming all RPers. It should also offer something which is not easily obtained elsewhere, thus drawing people to it. The wiki is a good example, an epic is another, but there needs to be a lot more. All of these things are incentives for people to check this site. The fewer disincentives there are and the more incentives offered by the RPC, the more people will participate in this site.

We will be on the right track once we stop thinking about how to prescribe behavior, and instead focus on what factors into people avoiding/visiting this site. There may be some who avoid it even given the best circumstances, and that behavior would fall to being irrational, which is outside the scope of our discussion.

Merri · **10-12-2011, 10:12 PM**

Quote:I want to improve the community, but I cannot say that the RPC at its core is any different than it was before, from an administrative side of things. To avoid circumlocution, Kylin, can you elaborate on your position with regards to these forums? Does your status as the administrator, provider of bandwith/monthly forum charge going to matter if there is (and there are bound to be) disagreements? Will you argue points one way or the other using your title as administrator? Are your personal views separate from your position as admin of the boards?

I personally have lost that connection a long time ago. Back then, when I contributed on the RPC, I was under the impression that I was helping the community as a whole, but when it was made clear that itÃ¢Â€Â™s not exactly a place which was welcoming of every RPer, but more like an administrator-controlled forum (which sat in the camp I and others were opposed to), I and many many others stopped contributing because it no longer felt like I was contributing to the RP community, but rather creating content for someoneÃ¢Â€Â™s forum disguised as a community website.

For the sake of the discussion, could you please elaborate on this bit? I've been a member of the RPC since near it's inception, and I never saw the RPC as an administrator-controlled forum. What aspects directly influenced this thought to rise up? Do you have any direct references and examples that could help shed light on it? I actually thought Castiel's presence on these boards was rather lax.

If this is to be prevented from happening again, we'll need examples to follow so the same mistakes aren't made again.

Quote:They are completely centered on the preferences and opinions of the person making the suggestions.

I'll respond to this with a question. If players did not carry those opinions and preferences(wanting to bond the community and widen social circles), what would be left? The opposing suggestion would be for everyone to bar themselves in and refuse to make friends with anyone outside their circles. I understand it's not for everyone, but for the majority it would be nice to see people actively getting out there and meeting people they don't know. Again, I know this already happens - but it's a point I felt should be brought up anyways. It is a step towards bringing the community closer, and therefor bringing the RPC closer.

If you are in opposition to the idea, you can simply say you do not agree with it - there is no need to say my suggestions are self-centered. That is rather offensive, to be honest, and this thread has no room for that. If we cannot respect each others opinions and suggestions, there can be no discussion.

Quote:IÃ¢Â€Â™d like to make sure that we remain on the topic of the RPC, instead of RP in general. Individual RPers (of various/multiple linkshells) have been RPing together, despite the drop in activity on these boards. This means that encouraging people to RP with Ã¢Â€Â˜strangersÃ¢Â€Â™ in game will not necessarily bring anything to this website. RP will go on, regardless if this site is used or not.

If players form more friendships with their peers in game, it will carry over on a positive note to these forums. It isn't something that I believe should be ignored, either. They're one in the same after all. One can't exist without the other, while the other can - but will be limited in terms of communication. As stated in my post, I am well aware that plenty of cross-shell and RP outside of circles goes on in-game.

If we are to unite on the forums, we must also unite in-game. That is my opinion on the matter.

Quote: As a sidenote, let's not guilt-trip people who chose not to RP with every single person. If you're the type not to get bothered by jarring styles, or enjoy massive gatherings, and tavern RP - do not fault others for simply not finding those things fun to do.

Nor should we misconstrue other's posts. I stated multiple times that I understand my views are not for everyone - and how that is completely okay. Not everyone is comfortable with the idea, and there's nothing wrong with that. By no means was it an attempt at guilt tripping anyone. It was simply a suggestion for those who would hear it, not as some sort of selfish demand as you appear to be painting it. My whole argument is based on wanting the community to grow closer to each other. I do not see that as self-centered. It's what I believe we need. In my opinion, the closer our bonds are, the stronger we will be.

Smiling River · **10-13-2011, 11:25 AM**

Quote:For the sake of the discussion, could you please elaborate on this bit? I've been a member of the RPC since near it's inception, and I never saw the RPC as an administrator-controlled forum. What aspects directly influenced this thought to rise up? Do you have any direct references and examples that could help shed light on it? I actually thought Castiel's presence on these boards was rather lax.

If this is to be prevented from happening again, we'll need examples to follow so the same mistakes aren't made again.

I am not interested in rehashing the past quote by quote, nor do I have time to find and pull up specific posts. I asked those questions, and come to think of it, missed some other important ones, to make sure that lessons were learned from before. I am not so sure they have been, since I've seen similar political lines being drawn and purposefully vague accusations as well. It's bad to do it on purpose, it's worse to not even be aware that you're doing it.

Rain, since you've been around, you can go back read some of the threads from the charter abandonment, old moderator forums discussions, and on.

Quote:I'll respond to this with a question. If players did not carry those opinions and preferences(wanting to bond the community and widen social circles), what would be left? The opposing suggestion would be for everyone to bar themselves in and refuse to make friends with anyone outside their circles.

This is a little outrageous. You ask me a question, and answer it yourself. I believe that's called a straw man, another thing we should avoid.

Aside from that, either I wasn't clear or you misunderstood my original point. I did not say that we shouldn't widen social circles. I said that we should NOT tell people how to play the game and RP. It's outside of this discussion. Whether I agree with your specific suggestions or not doesn't matter, I disagree with the entire premise of telling people what they ought to do. I don't think this belongs in this thread at all. The reasons I gave for WHY it doesn't belong in this thread, are
1) RP in game doesn't influence this site nearly as much. Maybe in your experience, RP has been as dead/insular as depicted by the RPC activity, but from my POV, it's been pretty good (half-done game considering). I have seen and participated in cross LS RP w/o the use of these forums. It's not a matter of telling people what they need to do in game, but as I stated later in my post, incentives for people to use this website.
2) When you prescribe people what they should/shouldn't do, you're making a normative statement. It is based on your own personal judgement and subjective values. You telling people how they should play the game IS based on specifically your preferences/experiences/values/judgement and thus cannot be disputed or proven wrong by appeal to facts.

Quote:I understand it's not for everyone, but for the majority it would be nice to see people actively getting out there and meeting people they don't know. Again, I know this already happens - but it's a point I felt should be brought up anyways. It is a step towards bringing the community closer, and therefor bringing the RPC closer.

This to me shows that you do not understand my point about RPC not being equated to the community overall. While it would be nice if the RPC did directly represent the RP community, it clearly doesn't. For example, the events posted here barely get any views/replies, yet in game attendance is far beyond that. There are whole linkshells who are not listed here. There are discussions between leaders, discussions on RP, new players who happened to stumble upon RP . . . none of that transfers over to here. RPC has become synonymous with major drama fest which is not worth the effort. It's toxic to a lot of the RP community, even if they weren't directly involved. It's time to realize that the community thrives (slowly) despite the RPC. I thought the purpose of this thread is to focus on how to get the RPC back on track, not the community as a whole. I'll pull up my quote from above with regards to how the community is fairing:

Quote:I think the community itself is fine. Not great, can use some improvement (maybe a functioning hub for all?) but the game itself had a rough start, and I'd be surprised if our community was thriving while the overall player base dwindled . . . I've been a part of it since its inception so it's hard for me to put myself into the shoes of a new RP'er, it likely feels a lot less welcome and friendly to them.

That actual ties to what Rain says next:

Quote:If players form more friendships with their peers in game, it will carry over on a positive note to these forums. It isn't something that I believe should be ignored, either. They're one in the same after all. One can't exist without the other, while the other can - but will be limited in terms of communication. As stated in my post, I am well aware that plenty of cross-shell and RP outside of circles goes on in-game.

I completely disagree that friendships in game = more activity here. Clearly this has not been the case, or do you honestly think little/NO friendships have been made in-game, judging by these boards?

I agree that the community can exist without the RPC, but in limited terms, w/o the help of a functioning central hub. Which is a state where're at now, and I guess the thing we're trying to brainstorm here. How to get RPC back on track.

Quote:Nor should we misconstrue other's posts. I stated multiple times that I understand my views are not for everyone - and how that is completely okay. Not everyone is comfortable with the idea, and there's nothing wrong with that. By no means was it an attempt at guilt tripping anyone. It was simply a suggestion for those who would hear it, not as some sort of selfish demand as you appear to be painting it. My whole argument is based on wanting the community to grow closer to each other. I do not see that as self-centered. It's what I believe we need. In my opinion, the closer our bonds are, the stronger we will be.

Actually, I didn't take apart your post and counter each point you made. I mentioned you once in my post. What makes you think this is a direct reply to you? What makes you think that what I said is a way to misconstrue your point?

Verence stated that in his post, and I echo this in my own. You jumping on it like you did, without me mentioning you, seems like you've done something wrong lol. My statement was general, so no, I wasnt trying to misconstrue your post. That point has been made so many times, and the counter argument not NEARLY enough. It feels as though someone is an ass if they don't want to RP with everyone, like we're all expected to enjoy everyone else's company, want to mingle and RP with everyone on the server. If that's what you think, okay have at it hoss. I think this attitude permeates the community though, and makes the people who do NOT want to RP with /everyone/ seem like the bad guy. There is moderation. I personally don't mind RPing with someone once or twice and then making up my mind. If we're on the same page, awesome, if not, then why the hell would I waste my time?

Final thing:

Quote:If you are in opposition to the idea, you can simply say you do not agree with it - there is no need to say my suggestions are self-centered. That is rather offensive, to be honest, and this thread has no room for that. If we cannot respect each others opinions and suggestions, there can be no discussion.

From earlier in your reply. The claim to be offended is another thing which kills good discussion, on top of all the other stuff I mentioned above. I don't think I've made any personal attacks, in fact I didn't even take apart your post, and mentioned you once. I certainly never called you self-centered, my argument against telling people what ought to be done is laid out pretty clearly, and I am fairly certain, doesn't contain any attacks against you personally. If you are offended by my counter arguments to your points, I am afraid to say ,"that's too bad." Whether you or anyone else is offended by reasonable discourse doesn't prove my points to be invalid, nor does it mean that I have done something wrong. If you get offended when people take apart your points, I sincerely suggest not taking part, as it can do more harm than good to the overall discussion.

Addendum

Whew, with that long reply out of the way, I'd also like to add a couple of other things which might attract people to this site:
>Personal projects. If someone has an idea related to RP, the RPC should be able to offer them several resources to house that idea, and to grow it. The RPC shouldn't claim the ideas/effort as their own, but rather be a tool for community feedback and so on.
>Temporary linkshell space. I was thinking how Archavolon has a page linked to the RPC, why can't others do the same? Slap a 3 month max time frame on it, and offer free LS hosting for starting RP groups! A pretty good incentive to start a Linkshell, if you ask me.

Merri · **10-13-2011, 02:20 PM**

All I'm saying is that if you are to try and state that the RPC was administrator ran, it would be nice to have some direct evidence - if not for me, for people who weren't around during those days. I just had the discussion in mind, and for a point to be taken seriously it helps to have evidence backing it up instead of going off some one's word. The issue itself is simple enough thing to avoid even if it did exist. Either way, I see no further need to dig into this, so I won't continue to pick at it.

Quote:This is a little outrageous. You ask me a question, and answer it yourself.

I apologize for that. I will admit I worded that rather incorrectly. The second half was more me reiterating my stance once again, and was not an attempt to answer the question for you - rather answering it for me. I can see how that would be mis-interpreted, so again - my apologies.

Quote:I said that we should NOT tell people how to play the game and RP. It's outside of this discussion. Whether I agree with your specific suggestions or not doesn't matter, I disagree with the entire premise of telling people what they ought to do. I don't think this belongs in this thread at all. The reasons I gave for WHY it doesn't belong in this thread, are

I never did state that I believe we should tell people how to roleplay, but I'm sorry if it came across that way. I believe that we should encourage those who want to branch out and widen their circles. I also believe that the RPC and the in-game community are one. That is my stance. They can exist without each other, but in my opinion they would be so much stronger if they both were in harmony. It's fine if you feel in-game has nothing to do with the core issues here, I respect that, but I believe it does. I'll admit, the overall appeal of the RPC comes first - getting people back, but I believe that mending friendships and making new ones is right behind that, and should be discussed at the same time. To me, that seems to have a chance at increasing the RPCs overall appeal. If people have friends on the RPC, they may be more inclined to post.

Quote:This is why I avoid making arguments similar RainÃ¢Â€Â™s. They are completely centered on the preferences and opinions of the person making the suggestions.

self-cenÃ‚Â·tered (slfsntrd)
adj.
Engrossed in oneself and one's own affairs; selfish.

I'm sorry if I read it wrong, but that's what I got from it. I won't say I'm right, but hopefully you can see how I would interpret it as you saying my views are self-centered. Something anyone wouldn't appreciate.

Quote:1) RP in game doesn't influence this site nearly as much. Maybe in your experience, RP has been as dead/insular as depicted by the RPC activity, but from my POV, it's been pretty good (half-done game considering). I have seen and participated in cross LS RP w/o the use of these forums. It's not a matter of telling people what they need to do in game, but as I stated later in my post, incentives for people to use this website.

I've said that I do not think RP in-game is dead or insular. I literally said that I see cross-shell and various other RP all the time. I simply stated that I think we could afford to grow closer together than we currently are.

In my opinion, they do influence eachother. If one has friends on the RPC, they may be more willing to post on it. The more friends they have in-game, the higher the chances of that happening are.

Quote:2) When you prescribe people what they should/shouldn't do, you're making a normative statement. It is based on your own personal judgement and subjective values. You telling people how they should play the game IS based on specifically your preferences/experiences/values/judgement and thus cannot be disputed or proven wrong by appeal to facts.

Perhaps I worded things incorrectly, but it was never my intent to try and force anything upon anyone - and I personally think I made that clear. I was suggesting that those who want to should go for it and try and make those bonds. Those who aren't comfortable with that or do not want to simply shouldn't do it, and that's perfectly fine as well.

Quote:This to me shows that you do not understand my point about RPC not being equated to the community overall.

This was a response to me making my point on connecting in-game and the RPC. That they are one in the same. I do understand your point, so that's not the case. I simply do not agree with it , and instead have my own opinion on it. It does not mean I think yours is incorrect - just that I don't agree with it.

Quote: What makes you think this is a direct reply to you?

The following:

Quote:As a sidenote, let's not guilt-trip people who chose not to RP with every single person

As my post indicated that I believe we should encourage people to branch out and RP with strangers more often. Common sense will say that was pointed in my direction - as that's usually not something one just brings up without prior events making it supposedly needed.

Quote:in fact I didn't even take apart your post, and mentioned you once.

I never said you took apart my post. You mentioned me once, but I think it's fairly obvious that you hinted at me in that note near the end that basically disowned my opinion as an attempt at guilt-tripping. I could be wrong, I won't say I am right - but common sense dictates that you were referring to my stance.

Let's just agree to disagree, no? I'm not trying to say I'm right, nor am I trying to say you're wrong. I think we both have valid points - so hopefully we can just leave it at that and move the discussion on.

Quote:>Temporary linkshell space. I was thinking how Archavolon has a page linked to the RPC, why can't others do the same? Slap a 3 month max time frame on it, and offer free LS hosting for starting RP groups! A pretty good incentive to start a Linkshell, if you ask me.

I actually think Castiel tried to offer this at one point, but linkshells already had their personal sites and it was deemed un-necessary. It honestly could be that it just wasn't advertised enough, or simply the fact that people currently don't really use the RPC as we are all aware.

I'm all for this being implemented again.

Quote:>Personal projects. If someone has an idea related to RP, the RPC should be able to offer them several resources to house that idea, and to grow it. The RPC shouldn't claim the ideas/effort as their own, but rather be a tool for community feedback and so on.

Seems fair enough. However, I have an honest question. What sort of resources did you have in mind? I suppose the possibilities could be endless, but let's expand on this.

Would they get their own specific forum space if the project were large enough? Would it be resources such as compiled information - lore, etc. Calendars, or special forms of advertisement?

Smiling River · **10-13-2011, 04:01 PM**

Quick sidenote:

Show Content

***
Reply to Rain

Quote:All I'm saying is that if you are to try and state that the RPC was administrator ran, it would be nice to have some direct evidence - if not for me, for people who weren't around during those days. I just had the discussion in mind, and for a point to be taken seriously it helps to have evidence backing it up instead of going off some one's word. The issue itself is simple enough thing to avoid even if it did exist. Either way, I see no further need to dig into this, so I won't continue to pick at it.

The RPC is still administrator run, just like any other site... I was refering to an abuse of power, drawing lines in the sand, outcasting a portion of the community, etc.. While I can rehash all of that - given I take time out to do so - I would rather not, since Kylin did state that the discussion should focus on what to do from this point on. In my post, I wasn't so much as making a point, as referencing something in the past to ask the questions that I did. If you are not sure why I asked those questions, well, I pointed you and whoever else is curious in the right direction. I am not trying to rehash old debates, but rather asking if any views/positions/approaches are changed since then. I don't need quotes to ask simple questions, especially when I've pointed (pretty clearly) the reader to the direction where had they wanted to, they can read up on what happened and make their own opinions by reading the posts entirely, not just snippets.

Quote:I never did state that I believe we should tell people how to roleplay, but I'm sorry if it came across that way. I believe that we should encourage those who want to branch out and widen their circles. I also believe that the RPC and the in-game community are one. That is my stance. They can exist without each other, but in my opinion they would be so much stronger if they both were in harmony. It's fine if you feel in-game has nothing to do with the core issues here, I respect that, but I believe it does. I'll admit, the overall appeal of the RPC comes first - getting people back, but I believe that mending friendships and making new ones is right behind that, and should be discussed at the same time. To me, that seems to have a chance at increasing the RPCs overall appeal. If people have friends on the RPC, they may be more inclined to post.

Alright, agree to disagree indeed then. I personally encourage people to check out this site, people I am close to, yet they have their own reasons not to bother. Since we're not speaking on anyones behalf, I'll avoid listing some reasons I've heard. So, that's why to me your points don't hit the mark. That and maybe I've heard the message of 'we should all be friends, we should RP with more people, we should have a united community' one too many times. That to me needs no reiteration, since that's pretty much all I've heard.

And there is no need to define self-centered for me, I believe my competence in this language is good enough to know what it means. If I didn't, I'd look it up myself (as I often do). Note though, that in the quote you pulled up from my original post, I never did say you are self-centered. Yet you said in reply:

Quote:If you are in opposition to the idea, you can simply say you do not agree with it - there is no need to say my suggestions are self-centered.

Bold added by me. It seems to me that you interpreted me actually saying something that just isn't there in text. What actually said was in reference to the general idea of making normative statements, which I explained further in the post before this one.

I see how, if I was quoting you, you could interpret that the way you did, yet I wasn't. I don't think anyone should assume, going forward, that someone is indirectly responding to them or hinting at them or winking at them or nodding to them or w/e... Unless it's quoted/stated outright, don't assume. Think about it this way, if I wanted to respond to a point you made specifically, why wouldn't I quote it in reference? Furthermore you accused me of misconstruing your post, when I never even quoted a single line from it. That's a pretty heavy charge to toss around basing it on nothing but an assumption.

My point was counter to the general idea that we should all RP together, Verence mentioned a similar point in his post:

Quote:We do this for fun, to enjoy ourselves and the company of others. While it's certainly nicer and more inclusive to always RP with everyone all the time, RP should not be an obligation. Accept that for any one of a variety of reasons, someone might just not want to roleplay with you right now. Don't take it personally! In fact, I'm going to be extreme here and say that due to differences in styles, goals, and motivations, not everyone SHOULD roleplay with each other! But you should never make that call without first giving it an honest try.

Anyway that's all for my reply... I hope we got things more or less ironed out and can move on.
***

The devil in the details

I do have a question about your proposal, Rain. Here is what is what you made clear is happening in the game already (correct me if I am wrong): Friendships are being made, RP storylines are happening, Cross-LS RP is present, big events happen, in general there is RP to be found.

Your answer to increasing activity on the RPC seems to be to strengthen in-game community cohesion and increase RP between people who usually don't RP with each other.

Is that the general gist of it? If I got it wrong, correct me.

If community = RPC, how do you bring more activity to the RPC?

Given, that people are already making friends/RPing - how much more of that needs to happen to bring more activity here? What is the actual plan going forward? A general statement supporting community solidarity and cohesion is easy to make, but I really didn't see an actual proposal/course of action based on your stated beliefs.

Given, that there have been many large events, many new and veteran RPers who met and formed bonds, while RPC remained in a lull, what do you propose we do to change that?

Many OOC pearls for RPers have failed/are not used, what will be different?

How do you get people to bond, who have completely different tastes in what they like/dislike or what they find fun/interesting? How do people like myself and Verence who would rather not bother with people who are known to have different preferences when it comes to RP (note: not people we've never RPed with, but people with whom we have and didn't find it rewarding) factor into this? Furthermore, if there is more bonding, how do you translate that over to activity here on the RPC?

What about the people who would love to RP with anyone, yet strongly dislike the RPC itself?

***

Regarding questions based on my proposals

Quote:I actually think Castiel tried to offer this at one point, but linkshells already had their personal sites and it was deemed un-necessary. It honestly could be that it just wasn't advertised enough, or simply the fact that people currently don't really use the RPC as we are all aware.

Just to clarify, my idea was based around new LInkshells. I understand why Linkshells who already have websites wouldn't need this.

Quote:Seems fair enough. However, I have an honest question. What sort of resources did you have in mind? I suppose the possibilities could be endless, but let's expand on this.

Would they get their own specific forum space if the project were large enough? Would it be resources such as compiled information - lore, etc. Calendars, or special forms of advertisement?

To be honest, it completely depends on what someone wanted to do. If they wanted to start a photobook, taking pics of all characters they RPed with, and writing a journal entry below about their impression, maybe a space somewhere on this website (outside the forum) where one can cycle through the 'profiles'. Basically, community support should be encouraged, and not just with words. If someone wants to start a podcast about their adventures, provide them with anything they need to make that successful, RSS feed (if possible), a page on the website, discussion forums, and so on. Welcome people who want to contribute and be present in the community, and the RPC will start to /look/ more like a community website. This in turn will provide the RPC with features/content which will drive up interest in the site.

Merri · **10-13-2011, 05:44 PM**

Quote:I do have a question about your proposal, Rain. Here is what is what you made clear is happening in the game already (correct me if I am wrong): Friendships are being made, RP storylines are happening, Cross-LS RP is present, big events happen, in general there is RP to be found.

Your answer to increasing activity on the RPC seems to be to strengthen in-game community cohesion and increase RP between people who usually don't RP with each other.

Is that the general gist of it? If I got it wrong, correct me.
If community = RPC, how do you bring more activity to the RPC?

Given, that people are already making friends/RPing - how much more of that needs to happen to bring more activity here? What is the actual plan going forward? A general statement supporting community solidarity and cohesion is easy to make, but I really didn't see an actual proposal/course of action based on your stated beliefs.

You've got the bulk of it, yes. The way I see it, we have cliques or groups of people, whatever you want to call them. Circles of friends, really. That's great. More often than not, it seems (I say "seems" because it's not like I'm able to know what's going on 100% as an outside observer) like these groups sort of congregate together in numbers. I'm trying to think of a way to explain this without getting to confusing.

Let's say we have group A, group B, and group C. Group A might RP a lot with group B. Group B might RP a lot with group A and C. But group C might specifically RP with group B. Now they might not RP with group A because of differences, but maybe they don't because they haven't really had a chance to get involved with them. What I'm proposing is that we encourage groups (and individuals. Definitely individuals, as a lot of RP goes in between individuals. I'm just using the group thing as an example) to branch out and start meeting other groups we have floating around that they haven't had a chance to meet yet. Actively searching out people they've yet to RP with in order to give an attempt to widen the overall social circle. Some might go smoothly, some might find out they weren't a match for the other groups of persons - but at least it would be occurring.

Now this already happens to an extent, but I guess my whole point is it'd be great to see it full-scale. Everyone coming together and doing what they can. I suppose it's sort of an eternal optimist outlook, but it would just be nice to see everyone come together - even if it's difficult. The only way I could propose this be accomplished is for a simple motto to be spread. "How many new friends have you made this week?" Obviously some people will be opposed to the idea and that's a-ok, but others might be welcoming to it and make it a goal to make a new friend every week that they wouldn't have previously known. Either way, it would by no means be and easy task - but one I think we could all benefit from.

But even then, this doesn't apply simply to RP. A big chunk of my point is OOC, too. OOC friendships are just as important, if not more important than RPing together. The more people that are friends and tolerate each other, the less chance we have of the "new" forums going the route the old did. People at each others necks for various reasons, dividing into camps. If we're all in one big camp, maybe things won't fall apart.

Quote:How do you get people to bond, who have completely different tastes in what they like/dislike or what they find fun/interesting? How do people like myself and Verence who would rather not bother with people who are known to have different preferences when it comes to RP (note: not people we've never RPed with, but people with whom we have and didn't find it rewarding) factor into this? Furthermore, if there is more bonding, how do you translate that over to activity here on the RPC?

What about the people who would love to RP with anyone, yet strongly dislike the RPC itself?

This one is much more difficult to answer. In reality, you can't. There's always going to be people who just don't click with each other. That's fine, and is going to happen no matter what. My proposal is more directed at people who haven't been introduced to each other yet.

However, even if people don't get along OOCly, I think we should still at least be able to tolerate each other. Respect each other. I think a big part of this would come down to forum moderation. Moderators who would crack down hard on people berating others for their choices of RP style - and quell any arguments that might pop up. Keeping the atmosphere friendly and welcoming of all styles of roleplay would be key. It's something I think we sort of lost here in the big mess of things.

Naturally, some people won't want to be a part of the RPC. That's fine, and there's nothing we can really do about them.

As far as transferring the activity goes, I think it is something that would just occur naturally once the RPC is repaired. As social circles would widen, people might be less shy to post on the forums and open up to the community at large. I know there's a lot of shy roleplayers out there. I see them all the time.

Quote:Just to clarify, my idea was based around new LInkshells. I understand why Linkshells who already have websites wouldn't need this.

Right. Even then, I wouldn't be surprised if a few current linkshells wouldn't mind having a hub over with the RPC as well. Really comes down to the group's preferences.

Quote:maybe a space somewhere on this website (outside the forum) where one can cycle through the 'profiles'.

Maybe sort of like what we used to have with that little linkshell "journal"? The little book with descriptions and pictures for each linkshell that was linked on the RPC? It would be nice to see things like that return.

I'll hit on a point you mentioned a few posts back, as well. Giving the RPC A new look. I definitely think we should re-brand the entire site. Not just aesthetically, but content-wise as well.

As far as aesthetics go, a fresh new appearance and layout might be a nice and welcomed change. It's been the same for over a year now. A new background, some new colours. Maybe consolidate some forums - add new ones and remove ones that are never used.

Content-wise, I honestly think archiving all old posts would be a smart move. Locking them away in a hidden forum with access given to those who request it. The sooner we can put all our past behind us, the better. If it's out of sight, it's easier to be out of mind. However, it'd still be there for those who need access to it.

We could obviously transfer over important subjects. Topics detailing guides, lore tidbits, etc. All the other rabble could be set aside, though, and we'd have a fresh template for everyone to work with. I know some people might be opposed to that entire idea, but it's something to think about.

Once all those overhauls would be finished, we could simply "Re-launch". Ask for a story on the front page of the big community sites like ZAM and Gamer Escape. Could also have a mass e-mail sent out to all people registered with the RPC - showcasing both changes to the game, and our community.

Something hitting on the general idea of the forum and it's rebirth.
"With the PS3 launch growing closer each day, we decided it was time for the RPC to get an overhaul to accommodate new players. Feel free to check us out and join in on the conversation" etc, etc.

Eva · **10-13-2011, 07:09 PM**

I realize it offers little in the way of the arguments that have been put forth, but I just wanted to point out that, for the most part, the people who are posting here are the people who have been posting here for the past several months anyway. If we're trying to attract newcomers and old timers who went away to avoid the dramz, perhaps word needs to reach them in-game or along some other avenue. I don't know how many people are aware of this movement to try to revitalize the RPC, and of those who are I'm not sure that many feel particularly passionate about it. I've kept my thoughts to myself thus far because I really would like to see what someone else might have to say - not a regular but perhaps someone who may have found out about this movement/thread and came here to check it out.

I also think that longwinded debates such as this, while perhaps necessary at times, turn people off to wanting to participate. Given the wall of text that this thread has become (and yes I've read through all of it), anyone who "just wants to have fun" likely won't find much value to this - what I'm going to call minutia for lack of a better word.

For myself, I just want to RP. If the RPC can help foster communication and bring [some] people together, than I'm all for it. What I don't want is to become mired down reading stuff such as this which - at least in my opinion and in such I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone here (most of you know that I like just about everyone anyway) - seems like little more than a massive timesink.

Smiling River · **10-14-2011, 01:54 PM**

Agreed with Eva. Totally felt like I was typing away into the abyss mid-response last time. Mass email would help. I'll hold off on the discussion Rain and I seem to be having, since we might as well just be doing over skype or something if it's just us two contributing, and hammer out a proposal which has both of our ideas. I'll make sure to promote this next time we record Remotely Plausible, but I can't do much else. I've let my LS know of this post.

Merri · **10-14-2011, 02:41 PM**

It's a very good point. Bouncing ideas back and forth really won't get us all that far. Honestly I think we need to just get as many people involved who want to be, sit down a night or three, and just hammer out a new idea - not only with the future of the RPC in mind, but with the future of FFXIV in mind.

With the recent announcement that has just blown most of the FFXIV community back in their seats, I really think it's time that we put aside all our differences and prepare for our own 2.0. It's no longer about building out community up for a fairly large PS3 launch - we have the chance to build our community up for an entirely new game by the looks of it. We have plenty of time to get it right this time around. We can learn from what happened the first time around, and not let the same things happen.

I think I'm just going to have to rescind my previous opinions about bonding us in-game. I mean, it should still be attempted, but I no longer think it should be a focus. This news changes everything for me. I think we just need to start rebuilding and conditioning the forums to receive the wealth of new players that will come with the revamped FFXIV. Sure, our current community is important - but now we have something massive to build towards in the future instead of running on hope that FFXIV will succeed and the RP community will flourish.

I'm almost 100% positive it will flourish, now.

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