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Cato · **03-27-2015, 01:43 PM**

I feel as though there's some major misunderstanding going on in this thread, especially since many of the role-players outlining their concerns at how frigid certain elements of the community can be are far from new or unaware at how to effectively find role-play.

Even when it comes to role-players who are genuinely new it's not always their fault when they give up after repeated failed attempts to find what they're looking for.

Experiences can differ significantly too so the people with a healthy pool of contacts to draw from across the board or who are repeatedly praised and fawned over in 'ur charz crushes' type threads aren't likely to understand how difficult it is for people to break into the community that exists outside of one's Free Company.

Melkire · **03-27-2015, 01:46 PM**

(03-27-2015, 01:43 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: Even when it comes to role-players who are genuinely new it's not always their fault when they give up after repeated failed attempts to find what they're looking for.

No one said it was. Fault isn't the topic here. Assigning blame isn't, either.

Identification of what, exactly, folks are having trouble with, and how those of us who are available to help can help them is ideally what's up for discussion. Communication here isn't a two-way street, it's a town square with folks standing around all over the place.

I'd love to hear more from newer members of the community and members who aren't new but are still trying to break through. What I'd like to hear more of is:

1. What they've tried.
2. What they haven't tried.
3. What they think might help them.
4. What they think isn't helping them.

I'm also fully aware that many of us get side-tracked onto conversations and lose the ball when people are posting the above. Going to go looking back through this thread for anyone who mentioned they were having trouble and yet didn't get addressed.

EDIT: A small note, wailing about how difficult it is to break out into the community at large doesn't help anyone. We know it's difficult. This isn't anything against you, Graeham, I'm just pointing out that "this is so hard" is a common complaint I see, but it's not really anything someone can build off of or help with.

Cato · **03-27-2015, 01:52 PM**

(03-27-2015, 01:46 PM)Melkire Wrote: No one said it was. Fault isn't the topic here. Assigning blame isn't, either.

Identification of what, exactly, folks are having trouble with, and how those of us who are available to help can help them is ideally what's up for discussion. Communication here isn't a two-way street, it's a town square with folks standing around all over the place.

I'd love to hear more from newer members of the community and members who aren't new but are still trying to break through. What I'd like to hear more of is:

1. What they've tried.
2. What they haven't tried.
3. What they think might help them.
4. What they think isn't helping them.

I've been playing FFXIV on and off since the game's relaunch, personally. Yet despite multiple attempts to get involved with more than just brief meetings in the Quicksand it was only when I stumbled across my current FC that I actually felt welcome.

Now, I'm not new to role-play by any means. I've led events and role-playing guilds back when I devoted my MMO time to WoW. I've got a pretty big load of ideas for planned events and the like yet any attempt to break into the community outside of my FC often falls flat.

People say they're open to being approached in-game or that they're happy to join a particularly intriguing fresh LS and yet when push comes to shove they don't deliver on that promise. It's understandable if they're busy or swamped with other matters but if so maybe they shouldn't be giving people false hope by saying 'sure, I'll get involved' and then not doing anything.

As you can no doubt imagine it becomes even more frustrating when those same individuals then come to this very thread and feign innocence or deflect blame by making it seem like those putting in genuine effort need to do more to get involved.

It's a dangerous, vicious cycle and I for one will be doing what I can to try to end it. Though for that to happen we need acknowledgement and humility from those responsible.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-27-2015, 01:58 PM**

(03-27-2015, 01:52 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 01:46 PM)Melkire Wrote: No one said it was. Fault isn't the topic here. Assigning blame isn't, either.

Identification of what, exactly, folks are having trouble with, and how those of us who are available to help can help them is ideally what's up for discussion. Communication here isn't a two-way street, it's a town square with folks standing around all over the place.

I'd love to hear more from newer members of the community and members who aren't new but are still trying to break through. What I'd like to hear more of is:

1. What they've tried.
2. What they haven't tried.
3. What they think might help them.
4. What they think isn't helping them.

I've been playing FFXIV on and off since the game's relaunch, personally. Yet despite multiple attempts to get involved with more than just brief meetings in the Quicksand it was only when I stumbled across my current FC that I actually felt welcome.

Now, I'm not new to role-play by any means. I've led events and role-playing guilds back when I devoted my MMO time to WoW. I've got a pretty big load of ideas for planned events and the like yet any attempt to break into the community outside of my FC often falls flat.

People say they're open to being approached in-game or that they're happy to join a particularly intriguing fresh LS and yet when push comes to shove they don't deliver on that promise. It's understandable if they're busy or swamped with other matters but if so maybe they shouldn't be giving people false hope by saying 'sure, I'll get involved' and then not doing anything.

As you can no doubt imagine it becomes even more frustrating when those same individuals then come to this very thread and feign innocence or deflect blame by making it seem like those putting in genuine effort need to do more to get involved.

It's a dangerous, vicious cycle and I for one will be doing what I can to try to end it. Though for that to happen we need acknowledgement and humility from those responsible.

This is an interesting perspective. I am glad you found a Free Company though. I'm curious as to how you stumbled across them!

I'm also genuinely curious (not being snide! I know sometimes tone can be misconstrued in writing) regarding the individuals in this thread who feign innocence or deflect 'blame'. Rather, I would like to know, for myself and my own self improvement, if you would count me as one of those, and if I am, I'm very open to suggestions on how I can change that.

Warren Castille · **03-27-2015, 02:00 PM**

(03-27-2015, 01:52 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: It's a dangerous, vicious cycle and I for one will be doing what I can to try to end it. Though for that to happen we need acknowledgement and humility from those responsible.

Consider that for this to happen, the folks who are leading others on would need to be aware of it themselves. No one here, I think, is trying to posture themselves as being new-player-friendly and then spitefully becoming unavailable. I've owed Caspar some RP for like... three months now. It's a reminder to myself of why I don't volunteer to help - My free time is too limited for me to really mean it, even if I wish I could do more.

We're not supposed to name names or call people on anything, though, so I don't know how to work through this impasse.

Melkire · **03-27-2015, 02:01 PM**

(03-27-2015, 01:52 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 01:46 PM)Melkire Wrote: No one said it was. Fault isn't the topic here. Assigning blame isn't, either.

Identification of what, exactly, folks are having trouble with, and how those of us who are available to help can help them is ideally what's up for discussion. Communication here isn't a two-way street, it's a town square with folks standing around all over the place.

I'd love to hear more from newer members of the community and members who aren't new but are still trying to break through. What I'd like to hear more of is:

1. What they've tried.
2. What they haven't tried.
3. What they think might help them.
4. What they think isn't helping them.

I've been playing FFXIV on and off since the game's relaunch, personally. Yet despite multiple attempts to get involved with more than just brief meetings in the Quicksand it was only when I stumbled across my current FC that I actually felt welcome.

Now, I'm not new to role-play by any means. I've led events and role-playing guilds back when I devoted my MMO time to WoW. I've got a pretty big load of ideas for planned events and the like yet any attempt to break into the community outside of my FC often falls flat.

People say they're open to being approached in-game or that they're happy to join a particularly intriguing fresh LS and yet when push comes to shove they don't deliver on that promise. It's understandable if they're busy or swamped with other matters but if so maybe they shouldn't be giving people false hope by saying 'sure, I'll get involved' and then not doing anything.

As you can no doubt imagine it becomes even more frustrating when those same individuals then come to this very thread and feign innocence or deflect blame by making it seem like those putting in genuine effort need to do more to get involved.

It's a dangerous, vicious cycle and I for one will be doing what I can to try to end it. Though for that to happen we need acknowledgement and humility from those responsible.

The first thing I want to ask: did you ever try anywhere other than the Quicksand and your FC? Anywhere other than a tavern, or a tavern night, or a large-scale event where your emotes can get lost in all the noise of people chatting it up with their own friends?

And I acknowledge that many of us do, in fact, make false promises. We're human, and it happens. I've lost track of the number of times I've told newcomers and friends alike that I'll have time for them at such-and-such date-and-time, and yet it never happened because I got swamped, or I was pulled away for something else, etc. I see a lot of it happening here on the Welcome Desk and Making Connections board because people are more interested in looking and appearing nice and friendly than they are in committing to meeting someone (again, I've been guilty of this).

What I can tell you is that guilt-tripping folks isn't going to help. It's just going to make your case, and the cases of those like you, even worse. Acknowledgement is already here, courtesy of the fact that this thread exists, and we've had numerous threads like it. It's an on-going problem, and the awareness is on-going, too. It's not like we didn't know this was a problem - we did. We have known.

And asking for humility? That, more than anything else, is going to cause hairs to bristle, because you're implying that folks aren't humble, and that's insulting, because it implies that we're all self-centered egomaniacs who don't care.

EDIT: I'd like to echo what Berrod said.

Verad · **03-27-2015, 02:07 PM**

(03-27-2015, 01:52 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: It's a dangerous, vicious cycle and I for one will be doing what I can to try to end it. Though for that to happen we need acknowledgement and humility from those responsible.

"Dangerous" in what way? Do you mean real harm is being inflicted upon the people who are at the brunt of these false promises?

Ette · **03-27-2015, 02:13 PM**

MY TWO CENTS:

Have a good time for when you can be contacted, actually contact the person in question, and bring an RP hook to set down on the table.

Iâ€™m all for player proactivity and I do take pretty active steps in keeping up with the people who I want to play with but a good litmus test for if I want to play with someone if they actually seem like they want to play with me. If I have to constantly hound them down for every interaction and constantly have to come up with a hook for why our characters are interacting then it begins to feel less like an RP scene between two people and more like work. Iâ€™m not here to work.

I mean. . . I donâ€™t know. I feel as if it should kind of go without saying that if you want to do something with someone you should actively try to do the thing. I want to feel like someone is tossing out a line because they want to write a rad story with my characters, not because they want to look like a friendly face on a public forum.

Also I donâ€™t actually see what the big deal is about breaking out into â€œthe communityâ€ which seems really odd and nebulous to begin with. But maybe thatâ€™s because if the RPC was a neighborhood Iâ€™d be that one neighbor that lives on the edge of town and never goes outside and maybe -crosses fingers- is probably accused of witchcraft at least one. Iâ€™m cool with that. I like that fringe.

Edda · **03-27-2015, 02:15 PM**

(03-27-2015, 02:07 PM)Verad Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 01:52 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: It's a dangerous, vicious cycle and I for one will be doing what I can to try to end it. Though for that to happen we need acknowledgement and humility from those responsible.

"Dangerous" in what way? Do you mean real harm is being inflicted upon the people who are at the brunt of these false promises?

Dangerous in the sense that it can lead to misunderstandings, feeling personally attacked/ignored, anger, animosity, deliberate exclusion, hurt feelings, and frustration. I can't speak for anyone about such results, but I imagine this to be the case here. The severity of what happens to such players is entirely dependent on the situation, how sensitive they are, and how much they rely on RP for whatever social/emotional reasons they may have.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **03-27-2015, 02:16 PM**

(03-27-2015, 02:07 PM)Verad Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 01:52 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: It's a dangerous, vicious cycle and I for one will be doing what I can to try to end it. Though for that to happen we need acknowledgement and humility from those responsible.

"Dangerous" in what way? Do you mean real harm is being inflicted upon the people who are at the brunt of these false promises?

Physically, not at all.

But it does deal damage to people who are socially awkward/unstable/immature/whatever-is-keeping-them-from-being-social. it can be discouraging to people when they see their attempts fail.Â

I'm guilty of it on both sides. Sometimes I'll reach out and watch nothing happen. Other times, I reach out, and it's my fault for not doing my part of the conversation. Other times, I sit and wait to react Â to something, but find nothing of interest to -me- at that moment, so I leave.Â

Here's something that's been echoed in some linkshells I've been a part of, and some extra thoughts thrown in toÂ muddle it. We're here to play a game. Maybe socialize. But we're not therapists. We're also not mind-readers.

My best mistake? I will walk around looking for RP when there's potentially a list of people who WANT to RP with me. It's the weirdest behavior. And I see others doing it too! "Why can't I find RP?!" stops working when there are people that are getting brushed aside in the search.

edit: *looks up* Hi Edda. Why are we not forcing you into RP?

Cato · **03-27-2015, 02:18 PM**

It's not really my intention to guilt trip people. Apologies if it seems that way - I usually wouldn't resort to such a low blow but I couldn't figure out how else to raise the point after repeatedly biting my tongue. Obviously I'm not going to name and shame since that's against the rules but...it's just food for thought and people are welcome to do with that what they will - whether it's ignoring it, contesting it or working to remedy it.

To answer Berrod's query, no - I don't consider him to be one of the culprits. I'll admit, I've been on the look out for his character in-game but I've never stumbled across him so I certainly can't blame him for that!Â

As for people being busy and only human, that's totally understandable. It's not an attack: I'm just raising awareness that it can be pretty disheartening when someone ends up caught in a net and unable to 'break in' to a fresh social circle to expand their list of IC and OOC contacts.

In regards to the FC I'm in now I simply made an application and sank my teeth into role-play the moment the opportunity became available. Again, I'm not really starved for role-play due to my FC but expanding beyond it has been where issues have arisen.Â

As for where I've tried to get stuff up and running? Pretty much everywhere, really - Ul'dah has been a major target but so has various areas throughout La Noscea. The latter interests me more than the former simply because my character concept gives more weight to him being there than lingering in Ul'dah.

I generally avoid major events because I'm more of a fan of character driven interaction on a much smaller scale. I'm eager to cross paths with people's characters at random and then head off out on an adventure. I never struggled to do that back in WoW yet in FFXIV's community it proves to be largely ineffective.

As for 'harm' I'm personally not losing any sleep over this. I just like sinking my teeth into a good debate. I do have some concerns that it's having a negative impact upon other people though - especially given the tone of that Miqo'te's post early on in this very thread.

Edit: Lots of posts happened whilst I was writing this reply so apologies if I missed anything!

Melkire · **03-27-2015, 02:19 PM**

(03-27-2015, 02:16 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: We're here to play a game. Maybe socialize. But we're not therapists. We're also not mind-readers.

Quoting this for emphasis, because I think it's really, really important.

Communication, as always, is key.

Verad · **03-27-2015, 02:20 PM**

(03-27-2015, 02:15 PM)Edda Wrote: Dangerous in the sense that it can lead to misunderstandings, feeling personally attacked/ignored, anger, animosity, deliberate exclusion, hurt feelings, and frustration. I can't speak for anyone about such results, but I imagine this to be the case here. The severity of what happens to such players is entirely dependent on the situation, how sensitive they are, and how much they rely on RP for whatever social/emotional reasons they may have.

I think it's the latter part of your statement that makes it concerning. It's definitely the case that a number of players are using RP as a kind of social support structure to greater or lesser degrees. If that's the case, then breaking into RP becomes critical. If that weren't the case, these would be petty inconveniences at best.

The problem is the impossibility of addressing that in a fragmented, largely decentralized community, in which creating an organized support structure to help such players is rife with its own problems, e.g. the discussion in the RPC and You thread about the possibility of organized Welcoming Committees and the Mentorship Program. Raising awareness and recognizing behavior can only go so far without either a paradigmatic shift in RP culture on a given server or something resembling a policy decision.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **03-27-2015, 02:20 PM**

(03-27-2015, 02:18 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I never struggled to do that back in WoW yet in FFXIV's community it proves to be largely ineffective.

off-topic:
Can I bring up a pet peeve? Why do people keep comparing FFXIV to WoW, or any other RPable game for that matter? It's a different community, made of [potentially] different people. Shouldn't it be expected it's going to have a different feel to it?

Sophia_Grave · **03-27-2015, 02:22 PM**

Let's also acknowledge that no one is guaranteed anything. I for one can't promise a lasting relationship with anyone who does a cold approach. I'll definitely appreciate and acknowledge that, sure, but we simply may not find common ground. I don't identify with a lot of people, that's just how it is.

Sometimes, styles, schedules, and characters don't mix. How many lore/RP/rule based arguments have we had on this very forum, after all? I find that most people won't be up front when someone else rubs them the wrong way or RPs in a manner they're not comfortable with. Instead, they'll throw ideas around excitedly, then end up letting things fizzle until there's no contact left. I'm sure that accounts for a lot of lost communication.

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