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***Alothia*** · **04-22-2015, 05:49 PM**

I'm on my phone, so I can't make as lengthy post as I would like to.Â

I think that this discussion is good, but I'd like to say just a few more things.Â

Why does discussion inherently turn to people needing to get thicker skin? I think the mod team as a whole does a good job pruning out comments that ride the line. We will continue to do the same thing. The only thing that will change will be that we will have a system of clearcut ramifications for having us prune a lot. So if you've noticed your posts go poof, just look at the things that have gone missing and try not to do those things.Â
]The rep system isn't the problem, I don't think. The problem is people using it as a means to encourage sometimes overly snarky behavior. I don't think that any of us really don't understand what is and isn't appropriate.Â
Instead of taking offense to a criticism of the site, take a moment to examine if you sometimes unwittingly do the thing in question. None of us are innocent. I know I can be flaky sometimes. It's okay.Â
Please don't let this discussion become a grounds for flouncing out. We will work on things as a community for the betterment of a community. Have faith that if we try sommething, and it doesn't work, that we will tweak it until it does.

We want this to work.Â

ArmachiA · **04-22-2015, 05:49 PM**

Oh, boy.

Okay, so first - the reputation system: It wasn't around when I first joined and suddenly appeared when I came in. I think, overall, it's an... okay... system. But I think Verad has a point, it can breed being snarky just for points. I'll give an example of myself. Generally, I try to keep my posts tone neutral in serious discussion - some people still take it for hostility but over all I try my best to make sure my tone is respectful and not too harsh. However, in one thread a while back about Gilgamesh some girl was kind of getting on my nerves and I ended up snarking at her. I remember saying very vividly "I can see why no one likes you." and, while my usual long posts with meaningful discussion warrant me 1 or 2 reputation, I got 20 REP from that ONE POST. I also got warned from the Moderators (50% warning!) and while I should have felt worse about the warning, all them rep points made me feel justified in being a snarky asshole.

THAT being said, over all it's an okay system. I wish there was a way for Mods to watch the rep scores, deleting the scores that were for mean comments and Dick jokes, but then you get into the question of the Mods doing too much and blah blah blah. I go to one forum that has a similar system, EXCEPT it shows on each post who specifically thanked for WHO so they know where those Rep points are coming from exactly. For example (Warning this is a forum dedicated to Japanese pop group factory Hello!Project):

http://jplop.com/viewtopic.php?p=176358#p176358 As you can see, this shows exactly who thanked this low quality post while
http://jplop.com/viewtopic.php?t=5979&p=84760#p84760 you can also see who thanked for this more effort one
(AyuHikaru is me, so I use my terribleness as an example)

The community over at Jplop is ridiculously snarky, more so than here, so that thank system really lets you learn REAL quick who's only thanking people for being assholes and who is actually getting thanked for high quality posts. Something like that, where we can see who is getting thanked for what would be a boon here.

~~~~

OKAY SO ON THE REST:
I'm here on this forum for discussion. Period. I'm not here to play the light hearted "Circlejerk" (As some have called them) games or try to become a giant pillar of the community. I'm here to talk about roleplay as a process, lore as it is, the community as it could be, etc etc. I'm here to have conversations with people who disagree with me and we can talk. Some people on this forum have made me change my mind on some things and I'm glad for that. I always stick my nose into the more serious conversations because that's what I like to talk about. There are some people here who I don't agree with a lot of the time, but their posts are always respectful and I respect their opinion and want to hear more from them. I like really deep conversation about rp as a whole. It's interesting to me to see how other people think and act.

As I stated above, I try my best to keep my tone neutral as possible, though I understand that in and of itself can come off as harsh. I wish more people would ASK what the tone is instead of assuming what the tone is. "Was this intended to be mean?" is just a lot more meaningful then "This post was mean." It would go a long way to get rid of confusion.

I don't want to see this place become a hug box, where if you say something the majority doesn't agree with your spammed with GIFs and Meme's. Where snarky comments are the answer to long thought out posts because somehow it disagreed with someone else's sensibilities. We aren't 4chan, GIFs and Meme's have a place and it's not in a serious discussion. I don't want to see discussion shut down because some people don't like it - yes that includes the "popular" discussion, the "New RPer" discussion, and even White Mage lore. Discussion should be free and open, and those who try to stop it or act aggressively towards it are the ones who should be warned, not the people starting the discussion (Unless of course, they don't come correct and/or start getting all aggressive too. Those who start topics can also be in the wrong!). It's so easy to just ignore something you think you've seen a hundred times, and yet so many people can't seem to bring themselves to do it.

That being said, I've considered taking a step back from the RPC myself. I am always worried that what I say here is destroying my reputation in game. This Lore nazi who takes rp sooo seriously when really I joke about ERP and Shipping 90% of the time. I just like discussion. Hardly any of my FC posts here despite is being fairly large - they feel they may say something "wrong" because most of us are quite opinionated so they don't bother. I will be watching closely what choices the moderators make and that will finalize my decision.

OttoVann · **04-22-2015, 05:51 PM**

Hide post counts and hide reputation. Even the playing field and watch as a lot of smaller bullshit goes away.

C'kayah Polaali · **04-22-2015, 05:52 PM**

(04-22-2015, 04:18 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I'll be honest and say that I don't really know you so this isn't meant as a personal attack: your profile has over thirty player character rumours. That's great! Many people who have been here for quite a long time still have zero. When you post in a thread about your character? People respond directly and exchange friendly banter about the good times you've shared together.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing or that you should feel ashamed. I'm saying that more acknowledgement is needed in regards to the fact that some role-players are trying very hard to contribute/get stuff going and their efforts fall flat time and time again through no fault of their own.

This may sound harsh, and it's not meant in that spirit at all: If a roleplayer is trying very hard to contribute and get stuff going, and their efforts are failing, then it might be a good idea for them to examine what they're doing.

I remember when Aya first came to RPC. She made a few posts looking for RP, and then posted an open RP which I responded to. Much like anyone else. But what stood out to me was that she was both a really good writer and just a really positive person interested in building constructive, collaborative RP. Since then she and I have RPed on occasion (far less frequently than I'd like), and it's *always* a positive experience. In the time I've known her, I've seen her go out of her way to reach out and RP with new players. This is why she has 30 rumors on her wiki and a bunch of positive rep. This is why people banter in a friendly manner with her. She's done the legwork to develop acquaintanceships and friendships with these people. It's honestly acquired.

Personally speaking, I'm not as extroverted as Aya. I prefer one-on-one RP over crowds. Yet I've still managed to develop a lot of connections with C'kayah, and my wiki has a ton of rumors for him, too. I credit two things to this: When I first arrived in FF, I started offering my character as a foil for people - a supporting character in their story. People love getting the chance to let their hero shine, and I would help them do this! The other thing I do (which I continue to do to this day) is I habitually examine people who look like RPers (i.e: People who are walking, or sitting in the QS, or wearing something that looks well thought out) to see if they have RP tags. The ones that aren't actively RPing? I'll send them tells: "Hi! I noticed you're a RPer! What sort of RP do you like?" My friends list is packed because of this. My FC is filled with people I've met this way. It works.

A lot of people like to pretend that social skills are innate. That we simply emerge from the womb with whatever social ability we will have. It's not true. Social skills are skills. They're learned. If you're not getting the interaction you want, then look at changing your skill set. It works.

Faye · **04-22-2015, 05:54 PM**

Why not compromise and just remove/not allow reputation points gained from a post that was removed or merited someone a warning?

OttoVann · **04-22-2015, 06:02 PM**

What about like, hiding the rep and post count, but letting people opt-in to seeing those in their CP settings. Join date as well maybe. Those numerical scores are used to immediately dismiss a lot of peoples posts on this site for anything, whether it be in arguments, LF-RP stuff, or otherwise. Let those that care about their and other's post counts opt-in to seeing them.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **04-22-2015, 06:04 PM**

(04-22-2015, 05:49 PM)Alothia Wrote: Why does discussion inherently turn to people needing to get thicker skin? I think the mod team as a whole does a good job pruning out comments that ride the line. We will continue to do the same thing.

Gonna quote the rules on my stance.

Quote:2. Stand by your words: "Don't say it if you don't want it to be around forever."

I take this literally. If I've said something, then it means I've read it over and assume it's going to stick around, whether it makes or breaks me is of my own responsibility. But that's just it. I'm accepting responsibility for whatever I type, which may not be what others are always doing.

Edvyn · **04-22-2015, 06:05 PM**

(04-22-2015, 05:54 PM)Faye Wrote: Why not compromise and just remove/not allow reputation points gained from a post that was removed or merited someone a warning?

that removes the fun phantom rep that some people have, where you see a rep boost from someone and then the BEEP BEEP ACCESS DENIED screen when you go to see the post. i think phantom rep is an interesting quirk of the rep system and worth keeping for fun's sake. it also sounds technically challenging - can rep actually be disabled on a post-by-post basis? i probably don't know as much about forum shit as mr. wizard, but it might not be do-able.

Flashhelix · **04-22-2015, 06:07 PM**

I remember first joining the RPC and coming into my first thread, where I was shown just how many things the reputation system negatively affects. For anyone still thinking the blame on the rep system is excessive, I dare you to listen to my story.

There I was, a young, innocent, and optimistic roleplayist. I saw the screenshots thread, and figured a good way to introduce myself to the community was by posting a screenshot of my character. So I did. Oh, how wrong and foolish I was.

Immediately, the negative and toxic posting began. "Get a load of this nerd! Not even ONE rep point!" I saw, my heart sinking and a mix of shock and shame overcoming me. The horrible posts continued "What the frack does this nerdball think he's doing? He's trying to follow my post with an unrelated one of his own, and he doesn't even have a TENTH of the rep I do!" was what I heard from thread to thread, on and on. I tried to boost my rep by making honestly kind and caring posts. "Your character looks great!" "You're a wonderful person!" I'd boast.

But my rep count stayed low. Those villains were MISUSING the rep system. While I was doing honest posting, those fiends were posting snarky and vile comments against good roleplayists, thus tricking people into liking their posts! I was shocked and horrified, but the words of the high-rep posters rang in my ears. "Your post didn't even have ONE reaction face or snappy comment in it! What the fuck are you even doing here?" And the inevitable FALSE-LIKING of their post that would come. The growing approval for these horrible toxic posts spiraled out of control. I can still hear a sound in my head every time I feel one of their posts upvoted by something falsely thinking that they said something worth liking. Ding. Ding. Ding. DINGDINGDING. Like an unholy steel triangle, I felt these dings piercing my very skin.

And now here I am. I quickly learned that, to survive in the harsh, dog-eat-fat cat world of the RPC, I had to get tough, and get mean. Most importantly, I had to get TOXIC. There's no going back for me. My soul is long gone, but maybe this new, fresh-faced roleplayer generation can be saved from the toxicity. Just maybe.

ArmachiA · **04-22-2015, 06:08 PM**

(04-22-2015, 06:04 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(04-22-2015, 05:49 PM)Alothia Wrote: Why does discussion inherently turn to people needing to get thicker skin? I think the mod team as a whole does a good job pruning out comments that ride the line. We will continue to do the same thing.

Gonna quote the rules on my stance.

Quote:2. Stand by your words: "Don't say it if you don't want it to be around forever."

I take this literally. If I've said something, then it means I've read it over and assume it's going to stick around, whether it makes or breaks me is of my own responsibility. But that's just it. I'm accepting responsibility for whatever I type, which may not be what others are always doing.

That's how I see it too.

However, I feel like when mods edit post to uh... sound nicer? it sort of scrubs that responsibility, like they can say whatever in the moment because a Mod will come and clean it up later no biggie.

allgivenover · **04-22-2015, 06:12 PM**

People love spectacle and drama. It's way more enticing than reading random story posts from characters you don't care about or you haven't RP'd with.

The vast majority of posts on the IC forum get views in the low hundreds, while this topic has 5k as of this post.

Look in the mirror if you want to know why aggression is popular here.

Also this:

(04-22-2015, 06:08 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: However, I feel like when mods edit post to uh... sound nicer? it sort of scrubs that responsibility, like they can say whatever in the moment because a Mod will come and clean it up later no biggie.

Unless it brings up personal OOC details or is outright hateful I think posts shouldn't be scrubbed. Especially considering what's scrubbed is never consistent. Mods shouldn't be nannies, but they are here. If people want to post in a way that gets them a bad rep (myself included), let them.

It's a minor gripe that I don't see changing any time soon, and maybe I'm wrong about how things should be. However I believe the site is overall a good thing, else I wouldn't have donated.

Kyrio Lamansque · **04-22-2015, 06:18 PM**

(04-22-2015, 06:04 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(04-22-2015, 05:49 PM)Alothia Wrote: Why does discussion inherently turn to people needing to get thicker skin? I think the mod team as a whole does a good job pruning out comments that ride the line. We will continue to do the same thing.

Gonna quote the rules on my stance.

Quote:2. Stand by your words: "Don't say it if you don't want it to be around forever."

I take this literally. If I've said something, then it means I've read it over and assume it's going to stick around, whether it makes or breaks me is of my own responsibility. But that's just it. I'm accepting responsibility for whatever I type, which may not be what others are always doing.

Even though it was just posted, I felt like I needed to quote this to make sure people get a good read. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned, if you're in an emotional state, don't post. And I treat this like I treat work emails. I'll write it up, look it over. Tweak it. Look it over again. Read it to myself to make sure it sounds good. Yes, aloud.Â

IMO, the RPC is needed. We need it to help track common events, and serve as the common ground to make connections and have conversations. Conversations demand civility. We don't need thicker skins. We don't need this that or the other taken away from us. IMO, we need to be reminded that we're working for the same goal.Â

Now, I'm not saying we all join hands and sing Kumbaiya. We have our opinions, we're entitled to them, and we get to voice them. HOW we say them is the fulcrum to what seems to be a lot of problems.

Its like the story of the old man who had two wolves in his mind. One basically good, one basically bad. And they're fighting with eachother, all the time. But which one wins? The one the old man feeds.

K'nahli · **04-22-2015, 06:20 PM**

People having a thin-skin is often not the real problem in my experience. Rather, it's other peoples' lack of ability to acknowledge the reasons why their posts have been perceived negatively, furthered by their lack of consideration to clarify their stance while reinforcing a friendly - or at least neutral - tone in such a message.

Sometimes people just seem far too concerned with their own voice and the validity of their own opinions to do anything other than default to placing it far above the reactions, thoughts and feelings - spoken or unspoken - of those whom may read it/it was directed at.

As for intentional hostility... I find that pretty disturbing actually. I understand having a strong opinion on one matter or another and therefore feeling the urge to express how ridiculous the opinion of someone else may seem to you, even if it means being a little sharp or critical, but admitting to frequently using those cases as an opportunity to potentially put someone down just for your own personal amusement as well as indirectly pursuing silent encouragement from others....

I'm sorry, I do not like the sound of that and I highly doubt that anything of the kind will continue skimming under the radar at the rate things are going.
I'm familiar with those types of communities and I have to admit that I think it's acceptable in certain places, typically depending on the platform and userbase, but I do not feel that it's something that works for here, and frankly, I do not want to see it turn into such a thing either.

SicketySix · **04-22-2015, 06:27 PM**

If you are easily swayed to act or respond a certain way according to another users post count, rep points, or colored name, you're gonna have a bad time in life. My advice is stop trying to copy ssomeone else, and be yourself.

Taking away a number baserd rep/post count will solve nothing. The newbie forum poster who is swayed one way to another by post/rep count will still be swayed by just figuring out that another poster is popular. You may as well all limit us to a 5 post per day limit so nobody becomes popular, we wouldn't want them to be able to sway peoples opinions.....

FreelanceWizard · **04-22-2015, 06:33 PM**

(04-22-2015, 06:12 PM)allgivenover Wrote: Also this:

(04-22-2015, 06:08 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: However, I feel like when mods edit post to uh... sound nicer? it sort of scrubs that responsibility, like they can say whatever in the moment because a Mod will come and clean it up later no biggie.

Unless it brings up personal OOC details or is outright hateful I think posts shouldn't be scrubbed. Especially considering what's scrubbed is never consistent. Mods shouldn't be nannies, but they are here. If people want to post in a way that gets them a bad rep (myself included), let them.

It's a minor gripe that I don't see changing any time soon, and maybe I'm wrong about how things should be. However I believe the site is overall a good thing, else I wouldn't have donated.

If you'll think back to when I was first given the magic admin hat (sadly, a decision I've been coming to regret), my primary weapon against bad actors was the thread lock and warning combo -- locking to prevent people from sniping back, and warning the participants to cool them down. Other than some pretty rare exceptions, I largely didn't get rid of posts. Unsurprisingly, this didn't and hasn't sat very well with people.

Post removal has been a more recent approach to moderation in response to the concerns people have been bringing up here and on other threads and PMs. I tend to agree that the best approach to tone is to let people see others' true colors, as it were. However, a lot of the hostility over the last few months has been crossing the line, which has prompted the use of post removal and thread slicing more than in the past. Also, newer moderators are still getting a feel for the right approach.

At any rate, what we're working on going is mostly a framework for what sort of actions will get a warning (in the name of transparency and consistency) and what warnings will do to those who repeatedly get them (in the name of civility). The basic forum rules will remain the same.

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Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately?

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