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Gegenji · **06-17-2015, 02:42 PM**

Please keep in mind the main purpose of this thread was to discuss the various nuances of glamouring in general - not to bash or argue over those Au Ra-hopefuls who decided to use it as a reason why they didn't look like one to begin with. That being the go to reason for people was merely the impetus that led to me wanting to know more about the very concept of glamouring itself. After all, glamouring existed in game well before the Au Ra were even announced!

Aaron · **06-17-2015, 02:43 PM**

That wasn't my intention, Â I apologize!

Lilia Lia · **06-17-2015, 02:46 PM**

(06-17-2015, 02:42 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Please keep in mind the main purpose of this thread was to discuss the various nuances of glamouring in general - not to bash on those Au Ra-hopefuls who use it as a reason why they didn't look like one to begin with. That being the go to reason for people was merely the impetus that led to me wanting to know more about the very concept of glamouring itself.

Sorry for derailing your thread Gegenji.Â

On the topic of glamours, I have glamoured outfits but I don't RP them as such.Â I have always considered it to be an OOC thing.Â But I also take the leve descriptions (and many of the leves I do) as IC and lore-based so generally the idea of "glamour" being code for "disguise via magic" is there.

But as far as I know the Au Ra thing is the major instance of people actually RPing glamour, at least that I've seen, so naturally we're going to talk about it.

Gegenji · **06-17-2015, 02:59 PM**

(06-17-2015, 02:46 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote: But as far as I know the Au Ra thing is the major instance of people actually RPing glamour, at least that I've seen, so naturally we're going to talk about it.

Of course, and there's nothing wrong with talking about Au Ra using glamours... but I was hoping to keep it in context of glamours themselves. How realistic the glamours would actually have been, would people (like sharp-eared Elezen) be able to hear their scales rubbing up against each other, would Miqo'te have been able to smell the difference between them and non-Au Ra, that sort of thing. And, as has been brought up, a lot of the glamouring player-side has basically been a non-issue and considered mostly a meta-thing. But now it's being used ICly, and that's what has me asking questions as to its feasibility and how widespread the actual use of glamour might be on Hydaelyn.

Basically, is this sort of like a Fantasia 2.0 situation? Or is there enough evidence in-game that backs the player races being able to use glamours ICly with any sort of regularity?

K'nahli · **06-17-2015, 03:03 PM**

(06-17-2015, 02:26 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: One of the biggest differences between Eorzea and the real world is that Eorzeans are not living in a digital age, where news and information from across the realm are readily available to all. There is plenty about each region of Eorzea that we don't know--and can't know--because our characters don't possess the shared and stored knowledge of every person who lives in every corner of it. Even in a big city, a few rumors here and there will only scratch the surface of everything there would be to know and see if the citizens had iPhones.

What I'm saying is, from your perspective the Au Ra just "appeared". From your perspective Rogues just "appeared" as well.

I heard a rumor that a Mammol Ja regularly visits a butcher's stall in West Hawker's Alley to buy enough raw blood sausage to feed a small army. I also heard the Mammol Ja tribes have been becoming increasingly interested in the Arcanist's Guild for reasons unknown. And hey, I heard they hired some dancers at the Gold Saucer who have horns instead of ears and hail from the Far East.

Can you believe that?

To be fair, I think the Ul'dahn and Quicksand RP'ers have legitimate cause for concern, haha.

(06-17-2015, 01:12 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Well, armor glamours I see as mostly meta, just like fantasia.

(06-17-2015, 01:28 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: As far as armour glamours go.... I tend to pretend they don't even exist.

This I honestly agree with. While I can't say that I like the idea of random people glamouring themselves to begin with in my personal RP, I won't really dismiss it either, but armour glamour seems very silly to me, haha.

Lilia Lia · **06-17-2015, 03:09 PM**

(06-17-2015, 02:59 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Basically, is this sort of like a Fantasia 2.0 situation? Or is there enough evidence in-game that backs the player races being able to use glamours ICly with any sort of regularity?

Personally I find it way too implausible to be something that exists, even if it's super expensive.Â

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However, I don't feel strongly enough about it that I'll refuse to accept player-made lore on the topic.Â It's far too widespread for me to just reject it outright, and it's the closest thing I've seen to a consensus on why people are changing their races.Â "I was hiding my identity via magic," setting aside the difficulty of glamour per se, is understandable in a world where the race could give rise to tension if it were publicly known.

The only satisfactory alternative I can see is expecting people to just create new characters or "kill" and rename their existing ones.Â But that's expecting far too much so I'm accepting Au Ra glamour as kind of a compromise.

However, strictly lore speaking?Â I think it's 100% OOC except for creatures that possess it as a magical talent, like imps or sylphs.Â I don't buy the idea of people being able to use it unless it was an extremely rare talent, certainly not as a commodity that can be purchased with enough wealth.

So I'll just see it as "Au Ra have glamour powers, but they stopped having those powers on Friday, June 19th 2015."Â Good enough.

If, going forward, this becomes the normal explanation for race changes, then that's going to become annoying.

Zyrusticae · **06-17-2015, 03:32 PM**

(06-17-2015, 02:10 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Just because it isn't important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to them. Had Au Ra been here from the beginning, I'm about 99% sure I'd have rolled one to begin with. I bet most people will tell you the same thing. Ultimately it's a personal choice that no one should be harassed or shunned for and I honestly can't believe our community is still making a big deal out if this; it isn't and will never be so please, move on.

Whether it's important to me or not is irrelevant. The fact is, people are engaging in some incredibly silly and implausible explanations for playing races that do not yet exist in-game because they don't have the patience. And I find that... well, silly, of course.

Honestly, this whole topic probably deserves a thread of its own. I will personally avoid RPing anything that I can't at least reasonably represent in-game for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that I would be MUCH better served trying to do so in chat rooms or forums rather than in the game itself. It doesn't matter that I REALLY love samurais and katanas or whatever, I just won't do it until they're in the game proper. No hypocrisy here, nopenopenope.

But of course, I have zero control over what other folks want to RP. If that's what rocks your boat, then by all means, have at it! I just won't approve, and how much does that matter to you, really?

(06-17-2015, 03:09 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote: So I'll just see it as "Au Ra have glamour powers, but they stopped having those powers on Friday, June 19th 2015."Â Good enough.

If, going forward, this becomes the normal explanation for race changes, then that's going to become annoying.

I foresee this very thing becoming an issue in the future for any new races as well. I'd rather it be nipped in the bud now before it becomes a recurring feature of the game's RP, but of course, that's not going to happen. People will do as they wish, continuity be damned.

Kyrrae L'minia · **06-17-2015, 03:43 PM**

I thought I'd like to throw my hat in the ring of this discussion as my character's story for his race change involved glamours, but his appearance wasn't hidden by a glamour. Let me explain.

His tribe has had a magic passed down for generations immemorial that they call spell-weaving, but it's essentially glamour magick. It's what they specialize in, and much of their behaviours as a tribe revolve around this. Since they arrived in Eorzea with the Domans, their spellweavers have kept the entire tribe glamoured as Hyur as to not cause a stir in Eorzea. They've been working in Revenant's Toll, assisting with whatever they can, but mostly building. However, it is a temporary solution for them. They have to be very careful not to give away themselves with their glamours. (i.e. make sure your tail/horns don't brush up against someone and make them suspicious you're not who you appear to be) and also careful not to put themselves in a situation where their glamour might be dispelled. (I.e., since many of the males are involved in construction, they handle all of their materials very carefully. Drop that block of stone/heavy wood on your foot/hands/head and your glamour would be dispelled, so they're *very* careful.) They're currently investigating into how they can smuggle across the Ishgardian border into the harsher northlands.

Now the tribe also have another magick that is even more closely guarded, and that is essentially, shapeshifting through blood magick. It's not a big stretch since we've seen this happen in the 2.0 MSQ with the Insquisitor who changed into a dragon, was able to fight as one. I.e., it was not easily dispelled by combat. And every time a heretic turns into an Aevis, they use a 'Blood of the dragon' spell. So I ran with that concept. I made it my own of course, with a way to reverse it. Now his tribe only uses this shapeshifting for shifting into animals. They believe that doing so borrows the creature's soul, so shapeshifting into another person is forbidden, as it is seen as stealing their soul. In Kairei's case, his mother broke the rules when away from her tribe, and kept it a secret. Recently when his tribe has recontacted him, one of the leaders in the tribe has demanded that if he wants to have any association with the tribe, he must reverse his transformation. So that's why he will be changing back.

Anyway, that's a brief summary of my character's Au Ra transformation, and I thought I would put out the idea of blood magick being the reason for a person's hidden appearance for someone still on the fence as to how to handle their race change, as opposed to straight up glamour. Smile

Spiritual Machine · **06-17-2015, 03:53 PM**

(06-17-2015, 03:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(06-17-2015, 02:10 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Just because it isn't important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to them. Had Au Ra been here from the beginning, I'm about 99% sure I'd have rolled one to begin with. I bet most people will tell you the same thing. Ultimately it's a personal choice that no one should be harassed or shunned for and I honestly can't believe our community is still making a big deal out if this; it isn't and will never be so please, move on.

Whether it's important to me or not is irrelevant. The fact is, people are engaging in some incredibly silly and implausible explanations for playing races that do not yet exist in-game because they don't have the patience. And I find that... well, silly, of course.

Honestly, this whole topic probably deserves a thread of its own. I will personally avoid RPing anything that I can't at least reasonably represent in-game for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that I would be MUCH better served trying to do so in chat rooms or forums rather than in the game itself. It doesn't matter that I REALLY love samurais and katanas or whatever, I just won't do it until they're in the game proper. No hypocrisy here, nopenopenope.

But of course, I have zero control over what other folks want to RP. If that's what rocks your boat, then by all means, have at it! I just won't approve, and how much does that matter to you, really?

(06-17-2015, 03:09 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote: So I'll just see it as "Au Ra have glamour powers, but they stopped having those powers on Friday, June 19th 2015."Â Good enough.

If, going forward, this becomes the normal explanation for race changes, then that's going to become annoying.

I foresee this very thing becoming an issue in the future for any new races as well. I'd rather it be nipped in the bud now before it becomes a recurring feature of the game's RP, but of course, that's not going to happen. People will do as they wish, continuity be damned.

Easiest thing would have just been to introduce Au Ra NPCs a bit more in advance. I doubt SE care what any of you folks think with regard to roleplay acceptance, but it would have at least been more interesting from the perspective of world-building. It's fair to have expected better of them in that regard.

Then again, maybe there will be a Postmoogle quest that explains everything!

People will just have to accept, though, that we aren't going to know everything about the world, and we should be ready to adapt to changes added into the game with either the surprise or knowing acceptance of our characters (whichever is appropriate). Like, how many people would have been a member of the Rogue's guild if they knew it was a thing before 2.4?

If your character has to know everything about unknown lands, and even everything about who or what can exist in Eorzea at present, then you're going to be doing a lot of backtracking and retconning. Welcome to MMOs.

And no, the Quicksand is not the center of the universe, no matter how many people contribute gravity to it.

On topic, it's the avoidance of addressing these unrealistic expectations that has sparked all these weighty discussions about the impact of things like Glamours and Fantasias. Otherwise I imagine they might be more relegated to the occasional stray plot device where they belong.

Gone. · **06-17-2015, 04:37 PM**

(06-17-2015, 02:59 PM)Gegenji Wrote: How realistic the glamours would actually have been, would people (like sharp-eared Elezen) be able to hear their scales rubbing up against each other, would Miqo'te have been able to smell the difference between them and non-Au Ra, that sort of thing.

This is actually how I play my disguises. A sensation of scales can still be felt and neither of my characters smell quite like a Hyur would, at least to those with a strong nose like the Miqo'te. Not infallible, but good enough to fool most anyone until the time is right. I just happen to call it a 'glamour' OOC because, well, I can't think of anything better that comes close in-game outside of Sylph magic and the like.

(06-17-2015, 03:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Whether it's important to me or not is irrelevant. The fact is, people are engaging in some incredibly silly and implausible explanations for playing races that do not yet exist in-game because they don't have the patience. And I find that... well, silly, of course.

Then keep to yourself and don't RP with them if it bothers you that much. Of course I think your idea of what is or isn't plausible is overly conservative, but hey, if that's how you feel then that's how you feel. Just don't drag the rest of us down in the process, yeah?

Aaron · **06-17-2015, 04:54 PM**

Actually now that I think about it I need people to bare with me and just ponder this for a moment lol.

What if, ok like. Glamours worked like the transformation jutsus in Naruto? Not everyone can do it because it takes a high amount of skill so that'd explain why the syndicate couldn't because they're just rich fucks. But no stupid hand signs.

Think about it! /turns off anime fanatic

Zyrusticae · **06-17-2015, 05:00 PM**

(06-17-2015, 03:53 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: Easiest thing would have just been to introduce Au Ra NPCs a bit more in advance. I doubt SE care what any of you folks think with regard to roleplay acceptance, but it would have at least been more interesting from the perspective of world-building. It's fair to have expected better of them in that regard.

Then again, maybe there will be a Postmoogle quest that explains everything!

People will just have to accept, though, that we aren't going to know everything about the world, and we should be ready to adapt to changes added into the game with either the surprise or knowing acceptance of our characters (whichever is appropriate). Like, how many people would have been a member of the Rogue's guild if they knew it was a thing before 2.4?

If your character has to know everything about unknown lands, and even everything about who or what can exist in Eorzea at present, then you're going to be doing a lot of backtracking and retconning. Welcome to MMOs.

And no, the Quicksand is not the center of the universe, no matter how many people contribute gravity to it.

On topic, it's the avoidance of addressing these unrealistic expectations that has sparked all these weighty discussions about the impact of things like Glamours and Fantasias. Otherwise I imagine they might be more relegated to the occasional stray plot device where they belong.

Indeed. Bolded in particular speaks to me. If more folks questioned these kinds of things it probably wouldn't have become quite as, for lack of a better word, ubiquitous as it has now. But it is what it is.

I wonder how difficult it would have been for SE to seed a few more Au Ra NPCs around the world pre-Heavensward. Certainly would have made the whole thing easier to swallow.

But as mentioned before, a large part of it is really because race is something that is difficult to change and justify changing, as opposed to classes and location changes where you can easily pick up on them. It's a problem unique to the addition of entirely new phenotypes to the game world.

(06-17-2015, 04:37 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Then keep to yourself and don't RP with them if bothers you that much. Of course I think your idea of what is or isn't plausible is overly conservative, but hey, if that's how you feel then that's how you feel. Just don't drag the rest of us down with you, yeah?

But... why?

I am just as well within my rights to speak my piece on this matter as much as you are. I can see that you feel pretty strongly about this, but that doesn't mean I'm going to silence myself purely for your sake.

Maybe it's because I'm a bit detached from this whole thing to begin with, but calling for silence feels like a serious overreaction to me. I'm just discussing it and letting my feelings known. If you don't like me referring to pre-Heavensward Au Ra players as displaying a lack of patience or such actions being referred to as 'silly' or, then fair enough, but these are extremely mild observations and really not worth digging a ditch for.

(And I'm unsure how you came to the conclusion that my ideas of what is plausible are "overly conservative", given all the questions about glamours Gegenji has raised that are still largely unanswered...)

Lilia Lia · **06-17-2015, 05:12 PM**

(06-17-2015, 04:37 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Then keep to yourself and don't RP with them if it bothers you that much. Of course I think your idea of what is or isn't plausible is overly conservative, but hey, if that's how you feel then that's how you feel. Just don't drag the rest of us down in the process, yeah?

That's a little excessive... I wouldn't stop RPing with someone just because I thought their lore was a little wonky, and I'd definitely be saddened if someone refused to RP with me over a difference of opinion like that.

I think most people want to keep as many RP connections open as they possibly can, which is part of the reason we like talking about whether or not we can agree on what is or is not appropriate.Â Getting to that kind of consensus is just useful to us as a community.

Spiritual Machine · **06-17-2015, 05:23 PM**

Glamours are described as illusions, but I don't believe they're ever specifically noted as purely visual (correct me if I'm wrong). If that's all it was, one can imagine that all it would take is an errant touch to reveal the truth of things. At the same time though, the wearer of the Glamour may or may not have actually physically changed at all. It's never noted that they themselves have changed form, or that it's something they have to adjust to (though the sources from which we can draw that information are limited).

As such, I always accepted a Glamour as a distortion of perception in general, rather than a transformation or a mundane trick. Imagine taking some kind of drug that made you believe you were giant, and everyone else was small. Nothing would have to have changed but your own perception, but as you see, touch and move around regular-sized people, you would be swearing up and down that they were pitiful munchkins, and that you were their towering king.

And why couldn't magic just do something like that?

Of course the thing that makes this magic so potent is probably what makes it so rare and so fragile. It takes a lot of effort to convince someone that their senses are false, and not all senses are created equal. A Sylph may not know how to compensate their illusion to account for a Elezan's hearing, or a Miqo'te's sense of smell, or even the spatial awareness of an Au Ra who may be better at "sensing" the true size and shape of things.

Just an alternative notion of how a Glamour might work.

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