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Gaspard · **06-26-2015, 12:57 PM**

To clarify;Â

I don't believe there's an inherent issue with such exclusive Linkshells / or groups, or that they in turn mean that those individuals will isolate themselves to said group solely. Neither would I feel slighted if not allowed to be part of such group.

I know the appeal of such 'safe' havens, in different contexts. I also know that it is easy to lose yourself in such and eventually make that your main 'staying' point as opposed to the general community as a whole.

At the end of the day, Such exclusive LC's and FC's will definitely not hurt nor impede anyone. But at the same time, I do see a problem if they're made with the intend to 'avoid bigotry of the general masses against LGBT people'. Simply because that both stands as criticism towards a community I've experienced to be rather open in such regards, and secondly because it doesn't address nor help in solving the issue of said bigotry. It may be idealistic (and therein Unrealistic), but I believe the actual goal should be for the LGBT community to be able to exist comfortably as part of the whole thing, and not need to 'draw back' into their own safe haven.Â

Which is why comparison to RP themed Linkshells/FC's doesn't hold ground, since they're not made with the intend to avoid social stigmas / bigotry/ racism by the community at large.

Again, I can't stress this enough;

I don't mind such Linkshells, I don't believe they're wrong or the likes. If they're made simply for people of likeminded taste to share company with eachother. I 'do' believe however that it's not helpful if they're made solely to avoid the bigotry of the masses, to, so to speak, 'withdraw' from the conflict and just resolve to 'us being ourselves somewhere seperate'. You wont achieve any form of satisfying solution. Again, It's Idealistic to a degree, but that's my opinion.

Also, I don't agree with the notion that 'Non' LGBT people do not understand. Discrimination is something anyone can experience at a certain point in their lifes, and hurt is universal. You forget that Humans are empathetic creatures and Â the reason why we're able to exist next to eachother en masse is 'exactly because' we're able to relate, understand, and feel as our peers. While we may not relate to the very specific, singular circumstance you may find yourself in, your emotions of 'discrimination/rejection' are universal. Anyone who has ever faced discrimination in some form will be able to relate to you on an emotional basis, as emotions are universal. To say that your struggle is 'unique' and not 'understandable' by others doesn't really fly. It never did. If you even reject the notion of empathy expressed by others for the very problems you mention, then you're sabotaging 'any' hope for a mutual community.

Hammersmith · **06-26-2015, 01:01 PM**

(06-26-2015, 12:57 PM)Gaspard Wrote: To clarify;Â

I don't believe there's an inherent issue with such exclusive Linkshells / or groups, or that they in turn mean that those individuals will isolate themselves to said group solely. Neither would I feel slighted if not allowed to be part of such group.

I know the appeal of such 'safe' havens, in different contexts. I also know that it is easy to lose yourself in such and eventually make that your main 'staying' point as opposed to the general community as a whole.

At the end of the day, Such exclusive LC's and FC's will definitely not hurt nor impede anyone. But at the same time, I do see a problem if they're made with the intend to 'avoid bigotry of the general masses against LGBT people'. Simply because that both stands as criticism towards a community I've experienced to be rather open in such regards, and secondly because it doesn't address nor help in solving the issue of said bigotry. It may be idealistic (and therein Unrealistic), but I believe the actual goal should be for the LGBT community to be able to exist comfortably as part of the whole thing, and not need to 'draw back' into their own safe haven.Â

Which is why comparison to RP themed Linkshells/FC's doesn't hold ground, since they're not made with the intend to avoid social stigmas / bigotry/ racism by the community at large.

Again, I can't stress this enough;

I don't mind such Linkshells, I don't believe they're wrong or the likes. If they're made simply for people of likeminded taste to share company with eachother. I 'do' believe however that it's not helpful if they're made solely to avoid the bigotry of the masses, to, so to speak, 'withdraw' from the conflict and just resolve to 'us being ourselves somewhere seperate'. You wont achieve any form of satisfying solution. Again, It's Idealistic to a degree, but that's my opinion.

Also, I don't agree with the notion that 'Non' LGBT people do not understand. Discrimination is something anyone can experience at a certain point in their lifes, and hurt is universal. You forget that Humans are empathetic creatures and Â the reason why we're able to exist next to eachother en masse is 'exactly because' we're able to relate, understand, and feel as our peers. While we may not relate to the very specific, singular circumstance you may find yourself in, your emotions of 'discrimination/rejection' are universal. Anyone who has ever faced discrimination in some form will be able to relate to you on an emotional basis, as emotions are universal. To say that your struggle is 'unique' and not 'understandable' by others doesn't really fly. It never did. If you even reject the notion of empathy expressed by others for the very problems you mention, then you're sabotaging 'any' hope for a mutual community.

You can't discriminate against a social group that holds all the power.Â Â

And Strait White Male holds All of it in the context of America and a lot of other places. Hell, given how imperialism works, we've got a lot more sway than we're warranted -everywhere-.

You can be a dick to someone for a reason, like being a strait white male, on a one to one basis, but discrimination, as a force, isn't involved there. Â That's you: Being a dick. Â Discrimination requires an entire culture and society behind it, grinding you through the gears.

That doesn't apply to the one turning the crank of the war machine, as it were. Â Anything that "lessens" the power of strait white males at this point isn't discrimination, it's equality. Â It's a leveling of the playing field.

And I can see why you'd find that scary. Â It's a lot at stake. Â Almost all that's AT stake, however, is based on cultural and institutionalized oppression of everyone that ISN'T a strait white male.

Look at what you're losing. Â You're not admitted to a chat channel? Â That's been happening to other groups for a long time. Â White Male as a "pass" to all things is based in "White Male" being top dog in the world. It isn't a carte blanche (see what I did there?) and shouldn't be by any thought or stretch. Â You aren't being discriminated against, you're allowing others to have Â what White Male has had for centuries in this country: The ability to have their own space.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Â

In the end you're literally losing nothing by not being in a LGBT chat channel. Â Oh no. Â As pointed elsewhere in this thread, that's not even real separation. Â It's just a place you're not. Â Why is that wrong? Why do you have the right to be there when it's not intended for you? Â It's like showing up to a pie eating contest and NOT LIKING PIE. Â It's a club you aren't part of. Â So why insist you need to be a member?

That kind of thinking is pretty core to the entitlement issue that keeps causing issues for everyone else. Â Eventually white het cis male will show up and start imposing on the party, and shout loudly and with a lot of power if they can't get in, even if they weren't invited. Given that White Het Cis Male holds so much power, this often destroys the party.

As to touch, briefly, as to why you can never know what it's like to be a group that you are inherantly not a part of?

There's a thought experiment known as the Bat experiment.

Imagine being a bat.

You will never be a bat. Â You will never actually experience being a bat. Â The most you will ever be is a human pretending to experience a bat. Â Because you're you. Â You can't be more than you and you CAN'T be a bat because you, personally, are a human!

Same applies to Strait White Guy "Understanding" what it's like to be affected by institutionalized discrimination. Â You can't. You can, at best, only empathize. Â You can only be Strait White Male pretending to have the same perspective as anyone who is not Strait White Male.

Gaspard · **06-26-2015, 01:04 PM**

(06-26-2015, 01:01 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 12:57 PM)Gaspard Wrote: To clarify;Â

I don't believe there's an inherent issue with such exclusive Linkshells / or groups, or that they in turn mean that those individuals will isolate themselves to said group solely. Neither would I feel slighted if not allowed to be part of such group.

I know the appeal of such 'safe' havens, in different contexts. I also know that it is easy to lose yourself in such and eventually make that your main 'staying' point as opposed to the general community as a whole.

At the end of the day, Such exclusive LC's and FC's will definitely not hurt nor impede anyone. But at the same time, I do see a problem if they're made with the intend to 'avoid bigotry of the general masses against LGBT people'. Simply because that both stands as criticism towards a community I've experienced to be rather open in such regards, and secondly because it doesn't address nor help in solving the issue of said bigotry. It may be idealistic (and therein Unrealistic), but I believe the actual goal should be for the LGBT community to be able to exist comfortably as part of the whole thing, and not need to 'draw back' into their own safe haven.Â

Which is why comparison to RP themed Linkshells/FC's doesn't hold ground, since they're not made with the intend to avoid social stigmas / bigotry/ racism by the community at large.

Again, I can't stress this enough;

I don't mind such Linkshells, I don't believe they're wrong or the likes. If they're made simply for people of likeminded taste to share company with eachother. I 'do' believe however that it's not helpful if they're made solely to avoid the bigotry of the masses, to, so to speak, 'withdraw' from the conflict and just resolve to 'us being ourselves somewhere seperate'. You wont achieve any form of satisfying solution. Again, It's Idealistic to a degree, but that's my opinion.

Also, I don't agree with the notion that 'Non' LGBT people do not understand. Discrimination is something anyone can experience at a certain point in their lifes, and hurt is universal. You forget that Humans are empathetic creatures and Â the reason why we're able to exist next to eachother en masse is 'exactly because' we're able to relate, understand, and feel as our peers. While we may not relate to the very specific, singular circumstance you may find yourself in, your emotions of 'discrimination/rejection' are universal. Anyone who has ever faced discrimination in some form will be able to relate to you on an emotional basis, as emotions are universal. To say that your struggle is 'unique' and not 'understandable' by others doesn't really fly. It never did. If you even reject the notion of empathy expressed by others for the very problems you mention, then you're sabotaging 'any' hope for a mutual community.

You can't discriminate against a social group that holds all the power.Â Â

And White Male holds All of it. Â

And I'm out of this conversation.

Cato · **06-26-2015, 01:08 PM**

Sadly it seems as though my earlier point has been proven. I'll bite my tongue to avoid getting into trouble but I will state firmly that I find the idea that 'white men hold all the power' is completely and utterly ridiculous.

They don't - they really, really don't. It's just that in recent years it's become 'cool' for certain elements of the 'equality' movements to place the burden of blame upon their shoulders instead of acknowledging that they, too, are victims of discrimination from various sources.

I don't really want to turn this into a political debate though since this isn't really the appropriate site for such things. I will, however, state that I no longer have any interest in being part of a LGBT movement within this community if this the stance and 'logic' that is going to be encouraged and embraced.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-26-2015, 01:13 PM**

May I ask, if you cannot discriminate against a group that holds all of the power, what then do you call the following?

Racially motivated attacks against white people?
Sexually motivated attacks against Straight people?
Gender motivated attacks against men?

while they may be rare, they do happen, and they are discrimination.

However, I agree with your statement regarding never being able to truly feel and understand a form of discrimination if you have not experienced it, that doesn't mean that people can't relate due to being discriminated against in another manner.

Tseren · **06-26-2015, 01:17 PM**

(06-26-2015, 01:08 PM)Graeham Wrote: I will, however, state that I no longer have any interest in being part of a LGBT movement within this community if this the stance and 'logic' that is going to be encouraged and embraced.

We're not asking for a movement. We're not even asking for support. We're just asking *eachother* if we would like to be part of a LGBT chat in game.

And look at all the crazy that's come out of it because it's apparently such a controversial topic to seek out fellowship with eachother.

Gegenji · **06-26-2015, 01:18 PM**

In my personal opinion, I liken this whole situation regarding the LGBT LS and why it's wanted - with no ill-will towards either side - to having an LS for Magic the Gathering.

Wait, come back, it'll make sense.

Not everyone plays Magic or understands the rule set. They don't know what the stack is or how it resolves, or what "Counterspell on a Stick" or "Fling on Legs" means. They don't get what the symbols mean, or what a mill or stax or "esper control" deck is.

In the Magic LS, you can talk about the deck you've made - the new cards and how they synergize with this Enchantment or Creature card you're already using. You can talk about how you shut down that lifegain deck with a well-placed False Cure. Or used Repay in Kind to drop everyone's life to one and then did a one-mana Exsanguinate.

In this LS, people would understand what you're talking about. They can share similar stories, and you can revel in that kinship. You can offer deck-building advice and point out cards that you've used that helped in similar situations, you can mention conventions and tournaments that are coming up that you might want to go to. And you don't have to worry about being called out for putting too much thought into the game or wasting your money on colorful little pieces of cardboard.

It doesn't divide the culture into the MtG-Players and the Not. The MtGers can still go and hang out with their friends and talk about Scrabble or Yu-Gi-Oh or even stuff they're doing in FFXIV! And there's nothing keeping the non-MtG Players from joining this LS... beyond the fact that I'm pretty sure they'll be mostly in the dark in regards to deciding whether to keep someone's artifact Commander deck colorless or use that new red Plainswalker that came out a few months back. But that doesn't mean they can't join and can't use it as a place of learning - so they can offer advice to others even if they never pick up the game itself.

It's simply a place for like minds to speak about like circumstances, like histories, and offer support and advice from a like mindset. There is a chance for it to become an echo-chamber or a place of hatred for YGO players, but that could happen in any LS. This is what I'm seeing with the LGBT LS idea - it's just that the thread that binds them is under a lot of heat in society. Much more than which card game you play.

AquiziTC · **06-26-2015, 01:18 PM**

I would argue it's more money holding power BUT...

Where power lies is not the intent of this thread.
A talk about privilege can be made, but not here, and not about this.

My purpose for the LS is not necessarily as a save 'haven' away from the icky heteros. (that's a joke) It was simply, in my opinion, a place to network, bullshit, and befriend other players and CHARACTERS who might identify as LGBT+, so yes, that includes 'straight' players who may have LGBT+ characters and might be interested in other characters of the ilk.

I MADE it because there -was- a linkshell like that, but it no longer exists, so I wanted to have that again. I -am- of the mindset that any sort of hostility will be handled, by me (or my mods) and if it isn't then I need to know about it so I can DO something about it. (I can't be logged in 24/7, of course)

That was my purpose here, not a huge debate over power dynamics, or anything like that. So please don't take any one statement or comment as an entire community's opinion or stance.

Virella · **06-26-2015, 01:21 PM**

I've been following this discussion for quite a while, and I think it is time to lock this. I really do not think the discussion going on right now is going anywhere.

Gone. · **06-26-2015, 01:21 PM**

(06-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Gaspard Wrote: And I'm out of this conversation.

What they said is true, though. The majority is just that, the majority; they do not have worry about discrimination, certainly not to the extent an honest-to-god minority does.

That's not to say that someone cannot be discriminated against if they happen to be straight, white and male, as that would ignore issues such as classism in its entirety. However, it'd still be ultimately incomparable to the likes LGBT people face on a daily basis and that is where the difference lies.

This is why we deserve safe spaces free from any potential discrimination. Someone in the majority will never, ever fully comprehend the effect intolerance has on the minority psyche. They just won't and honestly, I'm glad you don't have to put up with it. I'm even envious in a way.

That we have people in this thread willfully ignoring examples of legitimate hate within our community should serve as the ultimate testament to having our needs fulfilled, irregardless if some are unwilling to admit to their socially-born privilege.

Hammersmith · **06-26-2015, 01:23 PM**

(06-26-2015, 01:13 PM)Nako Wrote: May I ask, if you cannot discriminate against a group that holds all of the power, what then do you call the following?

Racially motivated attacks against white people?
Sexually motivated attacks against Straight people?
Gender motivated attacks against men?

while they may be rare, they do happen, and they are discrimination.

However, I agree with your statement regarding never being able to truly feel and understand a form of discrimination if you have not experienced it, that doesn't mean that people can't relate due to being discriminated against in another manner.

What us white males experience is classified as NORMAL since we've held the power for so long and so tightly. Â Which means as long as anyone else is not getting the same, at all times? Â They're the ones being discriminated against.

The fact that any action against white people is seen as 'rare' really just highlights the point, especially given recent events.

1)Racially motivated isn't institutionalized racism. Â A black guy can say "Fuck this white guy" and do something. Â However when the day comes in court, the overwhelming body of evidence points towards Whitey having the advantage. Â Much less if the police show up for...anything...in any situation. Â Like I said: You can personally discriminate against white people but when push will come to shove, the law, the country, and the powers that be overwhelmingly favour white people. Â The harm is not coming against White people any more than it always has. Â

2) This is called rape and it's wrong across the board and really shouldn't be part of the discussion? Â Unless you want to get into the actual numbers about sexual violence in which case it's overwhelmingly against women and especially other groups like trans in terms of victims to population size. Â White males get hurt, yes. Â White males are not leading the race because they're not the overwhelming target. Â If you want to dig a little deeper the idea that a man can't get raped pulls from the hyper macho institutions we've built up in there. Â We're hurting ourselves with the definitions we've helped define.

3) I think the points raised in 1 and 2 address this as well. Â Hell. Â I'm hard pressed to think of a "Gender motivated" attack against men. Â It demonstrates a point of just how much power Men have. Â We find the idea of there being a group or any institution that would target us for violence to be...laughable. Â It isn't there.

The fact that there's any push against there being safe spaces is an example of the "party wrecker" mentality that comes with this kind of institutionalized and culturally ingrained problem.

Alderique · **06-26-2015, 01:27 PM**

All right folks. It's not worth arguing where or not there should be one, because there are several opinions for and against.

At this point there is a linkshell up. I've added the link as an edit to the original post. Anyone interested should reach out to AquiziTC/Tenrilaux. Whether you want to meet other queer characters, or feel like you want a little safe space, come along. And if you're not interested, then you're not interested.

The intent never was to get into any political debates, but to see if there was any LGBT related group, and if there was a desire for one. There is no movement going on here. I would say it's time to break down any debates and just let it go. There are always going to be different opinions and it's not worth having the frustration on the forums.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-26-2015, 01:30 PM**

(06-26-2015, 01:23 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-26-2015, 01:13 PM)Nako Wrote: May I ask, if you cannot discriminate against a group that holds all of the power, what then do you call the following?

Racially motivated attacks against white people?
Sexually motivated attacks against Straight people?
Gender motivated attacks against men?

while they may be rare, they do happen, and they are discrimination.

However, I agree with your statement regarding never being able to truly feel and understand a form of discrimination if you have not experienced it, that doesn't mean that people can't relate due to being discriminated against in another manner.
1)Racially motivated isn't institutionalized racism. Â A black guy can say "Fuck this white guy" and do something. Â However when the day comes in court, the overwhelming body of evidence points towards Whitey having the advantage. Â Much less if the police show up for...anything...in any situation. Â Like I said: You can personally discriminate against white people but when push will come to shove, the law, the country, and the powers that be overwhelmingly favour white people. Â The harm is not coming against White people any more than it always has. Â

What we experience is classified as NORMAL since we've held the power for so long and so tightly. Â Which means as long as anyone else is not getting the same, at all times? Â They're the ones being discriminated against.

The fact that any action against white people is seen as 'rare' really just highlights the point, especially given recent events.

2) This is called rape and it's wrong across the board and really shouldn't be part of the discussion? Â Unless you want to get into the actual numbers about sexual violence in which case it's overwhelmingly against women and especially other groups like trans in terms of victims to population size. Â White males get hurt, yes. Â White males are not leading the race because they're not the overwhelming target. Â If you want to dig a little deeper the idea that a man can't get raped pulls from the hyper macho institutions we've built up in there. Â We're hurting ourselves with the definitions we've helped define.

3) I think the points raised in 1 and 2 address this as well. Â Hell. Â I'm hard pressed to think of a "Gender motivated" attack against men. Â It demonstrates a point of just how much power Men have. Â We find the idea of there being a group or any institution that would target us for violence to be...laughable. Â It isn't there.

It isn't institutionalised racism, no, but it is still discrimination. 2 was a typo and was meant to say sexuality, rather than sexually.

The point is, that all of these are discriminatory attacks. To state that you cannot discriminate against them is patently false. It may not be institutionalised, but it doesn't mean that it cannot happen.

I have seen friends been jeered at and yelled at for attempting to strike up a conversation with a group of women. His motives weren't sexual, nor did he approach in an intimidating manner. He simply wanted to make some new friends.

Also, as was stated before, Discriminatory doesn't mean violent. nether does attack.

Virella · **06-26-2015, 01:30 PM**

I wonder if any of the people hear have heard of a world outside America & Europe. White people aren't the majority everywhere in the world. Brushing racism and discrimination off on one group of people, just due to their skintone, is just as painfully racist as a white person bashing onto other skintones. Just as brushing off one sexuality cannot experience discrimination. Heck, the amount of bisexual hatred within the LGBT community should serve as an example.

Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-26-2015, 01:43 PM**

(06-26-2015, 01:30 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: I wonder if any of the people hear have heard of a world outside America & Europe. White people aren't the majority everywhere in the world. Brushing racism and discrimination off on one group of people, just due to their skintone, is just as painfully racist as a white person bashing onto other skintones. Just as brushing off one sexuality cannot experience discrimination. Heck, the amount of bisexual hatred within the LGBT community should serve as an example.

Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves.

If you're refering to myself, I was simply responding to the claimes RE: discrimination, on the grounds provided by Hammersmith. he used the Straight White Male as an example. I don't believe that he was implying that there were not other groups that hold the power elsewhere int he world, but the one he was dealing with and using was that common to America and certain European nations.

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LGBT Characters and Related Groups (Balmung)

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes