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Fox · **08-02-2015, 09:20 PM**

Alright; so I could not find the screenshot because I realized it wasn't in a cutscene however I -did- find the dialogue; and this is spoilery so I will drop it in a spoiler tag.

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With this in mind; yes there is plausible reason for why Au ra are hated; at least by Ishgardians. It's why my character is hesitant in involving herself publicly in Ishgard.

Sin · **08-02-2015, 09:27 PM**

I see several arguments going on here at once and it's getting convoluted. I think my earlier post summed it all pretty well so I'll repeat it as a foreword.

If you don't like roleplaying racism, then don't. If you don't like roleplaying X, then don't. That's fine.

But please, don't deny that the setting has racism when the lore writer has come out and said that it does. When you can see it in game if you look a little deeper than a superficial glance.

I won't deny that the game's developers could do a better job of talking about this conflicts in side quests. They're quite boring anyway, inject some flavor into them SE come on, less moogle finding more flavor! But, the crux of the matter is that the lore -is- there. The representations are there for you to see if you dig just a little bit deeper.

Now, I see people saying that nobody is arguing that Eorzea is not a dark, gritty place, but not even three posts from here I can see people arguing that Eorzea is not a dark, gritty place with death, disease, famine and corruption along every corner. This confuses me. Once more, I simply don't think there's debate as to whether Eorzea is a shitty place or not if one takes an honest, objective look at the setting.

In any case! If you will indulge me, I'd love to take you guys on a casual stroll through Eorzea to see some of the people of this non-dark, clean world.

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Anyway, I hope you take the stroll as playfully as I meant it. My point is, that's just NPC chat bubbles. There's also fates, and levequests, and sidequests, and Dev statement that make it quite clear that though aesthetically the game might seem bright at first glance. Right underneath is a gritty underbelly.

I'll reiterate just so my point is not lost in this massive post. You don't want to roleplay Racism or Grittyness or whatever... you don't want to roleplay X. THEN DON'T! Play to your comforts, have your fun. But please... please! Don't deny that Eorzea is a shitty place with visceral suffering, danger, death, and corruption around every corner.

Goodfellow · **08-02-2015, 09:39 PM**

(08-02-2015, 07:26 PM)Nero Wrote: But it's not just about creating conflict; it's about making conflict that is compelling and believable. The thing with racism and prejudice in Eorzea is that as far as the general population goes, creating a character who is racist for reasons that aren't superficial is rather difficult because the setting emphasizes a mingling of cultures and a certain open-mindedness that comes from being constantly exposed to different races and customs.

The emphasis above is mine, and please don't think I'm just trying to nitpick, Nero, because in your follow-up comment on the next page, I think that you make a pretty good point.Â That being said, I think the bolded section is actually not true.

It can work like that, but it very often does not.Â I am mixed-race and live in Texas, where being mixed-race is incredibly common.Â And yet, everywhere I look, including within my own mixed-race family, the idea of "mingling cultures" and "different races and customs" is an incredibly fraught subject.Â The racism of my region and, to a degree, my family works obviously and explicitly against us despite the fact that we are surrounded by and even composed of different races and customs, are constantly mingling and ever intermarrying and interbreeding, and are never and have never been in a racially or culturally homogenous environment.

I'm not arguing that anyone play a racist or not (much like Sin), and I agree that the aesthetic and much of the presentation of FFXIV belies a great deal of the racial reality presented in the quest flavor text, but I wanted to offer my two gil on the wider subject from a personal (perhaps flawed and anecdotal) perspective.

LiadansWhisper · **08-02-2015, 09:47 PM**

(08-02-2015, 08:40 PM)UntrueCrystal Wrote: I've seen a few Ala Mhigan refugees being racist towards Au Ra now and each time I roll my eyes so hard they fall out. Not only is there little to no lore supporting anyone being against theyr arrival in Eorzea (barring Ishgard for their obvious Dragon-y traits, but even that is never addressed by the setting itself), but the irony is thick enough to cut with a knife.

Like I said, people invent things to make their characters dark and gritty because they assume that also makes them interesting. It doesn't. Not everything is Game of Thrones nor should it be.

You should really do the level 50+ White Mage quests before you say that there is no lore against the Au Ra migration. Â Because, well, that's not true. Â In fact, the entire questline revolves around the result of the hostility the Au Ra encountered once they got to Eorzea.

***Nero*** · **08-02-2015, 11:36 PM**

(08-02-2015, 09:39 PM)Goodfellow Wrote:
(08-02-2015, 07:26 PM)Nero Wrote: But it's not just about creating conflict; it's about making conflict that is compelling and believable. The thing with racism and prejudice in Eorzea is that as far as the general population goes, creating a character who is racist for reasons that aren't superficial is rather difficult because the setting emphasizes a mingling of cultures and a certain open-mindedness that comes from being constantly exposed to different races and customs.

The emphasis above is mine, and please don't think I'm just trying to nitpick, Nero, because in your follow-up comment on the next page, I think that you make a pretty good point.Â That being said, I think the bolded section is actually not true.

It can work like that, but it very often does not.Â I am mixed-race and live in Texas, where being mixed-race is incredibly common.Â And yet, everywhere I look, including within my own mixed-race family, the idea of "mingling cultures" and "different races and customs" is an incredibly fraught subject.Â The racism of my region and, to a degree, my family works obviously and explicitly against us despite the fact that we are surrounded by and even composed of different races and customs, are constantly mingling and ever intermarrying and interbreeding, and are never and have never been in a racially or culturally homogenous environment.

I'm not arguing that anyone play a racist or not (much like Sin), and I agree that the aesthetic and much of the presentation of FFXIV belies a great deal of the racial reality presented in the quest flavor text, but I wanted to offer my two gil on the wider subject from a personal (perhaps flawed and anecdotal) perspective.

I actually agree with most of your premise: just because different cultures and races are within proximity with each other for an extended period of time doesn't mean that those cultures and races necessarily get along. In fact, it can potentially exacerbate the issue by encouraging ethnic or cultural categorization and divide a community into groups of "us" and "them". And the longer a community is divided in such a way, the easier it is to see such things as tradition and custom (see: Europe at any time before the 21st century).

However, it's worth keeping in mind the differences when drawing the parallels. Europe and the United States have extensive histories of continued prejudice, racism, and large scale ethnic conflicts. By contrast, Eorzea has had....a relatively peaceful timeline, at least as far as ethnic or cultural conflicts go.

Obviously, a fictional universe that has massive holes in its world building (thanks Square) does not exclude the idea of ethnic conflict, and the lack of evidence does not substitute actual evidence in the slightest. I fully admit this, and this is the part where my argument goes from a rebuttal into pure conjecture.

If we take the past thousand years of the Eorzean timeline from 1572 to 500, the number of notable events that may have spawned racial tension can be counted on one hand. In no particular order: the destruction of Sil'dih by Ul'dah, the Autumn War between Gridania and Ala Mhigo, the invasion of Eorzea by Garlemald, Haldrath's taking of the Eye of Nidhogg, and the great migration of Hyur to Eorzea. Note that this is only including conflicts between the spoken races, and excludes dragons, beast races, and others outside of the five (now six) races.

Again, I emphasize that the lack of evidence does not substitute actual evidence, but at the same time, in-game dialogue and interactions fail to reflect ethnic conflicts outside of those that are massively obvious (Eorzea vs. Garlemald, spoken vs. beast tribes, Ishgard vs. Dravanians, etc.) The differing races, cultures, and allegiances to different city states do show themselves as rivalries at times, but never at a level that remotely indicates widespread or deep-rooted hostility or resentment. And I'm not saying racism does not exist in Eorzea, but that it's not nearly as commonplace as some people make it out to be. As far as the six spoken races interacting with one another go, racism seems to be the exception, not the rule. Those exceptions are notable, but they're just that--exceptions.

Again, most of this is just conjecture with little to back it. But I like to think that after having spent much of recent history cooperating, the city states and by extension the races that dwell in them can get along mostly decently.

Kage · **08-03-2015, 01:13 AM**

Just some random thoughts:
If more people wanted to actually roleplay racists, they would. Keep saying, "if you don't want to roleplay a racist, you don't have to" and this thread should have /closed already. People don't want to roleplay a racist. That's fine. Find someone who will then if you want that in your roleplay.

In my view, there are notable racist tensions but it's not a tension where you would have many lynchings (barring the early 30?-50yrs ago Auri movement). Why was
Sigurd left? What stopped? Is he the only? Does that mean it's less crucial? After that you have the Keeper/Duskwight issue in Gridania, notable for going against the pact in Twelveswood. You have the Highlanders of Ala Mhigo who invaded Twelveswood... Ala Mhigans and those in the Twelveswood face discrimination on a different level because of being seen as a free-loader/bringing the forest's vengeance upon us. Au Ra seem to have the same free-loading thoughts as the Ala Mhigans? With extra dravanian-flavor in Ishgard.

And yet, the Mongrel is listened to by Elezen and Hyur in Ishgard. The mongrel still had clout. She still had voice. I have never really seen major "well you have some type of business / Â trade / gil to offer me. I don't want no Lalafell in my establishment! You Lalafell go to ____ for service!"

So yes, there's shitty racist and discriminatory shit but it seems more "I really don't want to see them banging because I think same-race should be together" and not "Well I'm just going to not want to deal with you" [For the most part*]

The general, usual, racial tension seems to run along the lines of with some exceptions
[youtube]RovF1zsDoeM[/youtube]

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-03-2015, 02:26 AM**

(08-03-2015, 01:13 AM)Kage Wrote: Just some random thoughts:
If more people wanted to actually roleplay racists, they would. Keep saying, "if you don't want to roleplay a racist, you don't have to" and this thread should have /closed already. People don't want to roleplay a racist. That's fine. Find someone who will then if you want that in your roleplay.

In my view, there are notable racist tensions but it's not a tension where you would have many lynchings (barring the early 30?-50yrs ago Auri movement). Why was
Sigurd left? What stopped? Is he the only? Does that mean it's less crucial? After that you have the Keeper/Duskwight issue in Gridania, notable for going against the pact in Twelveswood. You have the Highlanders of Ala Mhigo who invaded Twelveswood... Ala Mhigans and those in the Twelveswood face discrimination on a different level because of being seen as a free-loader/bringing the forest's vengeance upon us. Au Ra seem to have the same free-loading thoughts as the Ala Mhigans? With extra dravanian-flavor in Ishgard.

And yet, the Mongrel is listened to by Elezen and Hyur in Ishgard. The mongrel still had clout. She still had voice. I have never really seen major "well you have some type of business / Â trade / gil to offer me. I don't want no Lalafell in my establishment! You Lalafell go to ____ for service!"

So yes, there's shitty racist and discriminatory shit but it seems more "I really don't want to see them banging because I think same-race should be together" and not "Well I'm just going to not want to deal with you" [For the most part*]

The general, usual, racial tension seems to run along the lines of with some exceptions
[youtube]RovF1zsDoeM[/youtube]

This is a game that literally has refugee camps for certain types of people. There are story NPCs (aka Raubahn) who are famous for overcoming the racial issues in their cities. I think Sounsy posted a tidbit from 1.0 on how it was a big deal that the Gladiator's guild decided to allow highlanders to compete.

Miqo'te in Gridania are often seen as a bunch of forest cat poachers, hyur in Ishgard are treated as lowborn, and all over you see racism against the beast tribes.

Racial tensions are EXPLICITY built into the lore, and much of it is quite nasty. I'm not saying anyone has to play an unrepentant racist, but to act like they don't exist is rather silly. If you want to play an open minded character that doesn't worry about race, then that's fine, more power to you. Just be aware your character is an exception (likely a positive one) and not the norm.

Blue · **08-03-2015, 04:17 AM**

A pretty nice "excuse" to have a character filled with discriminative prejudice is to have lived a tribal life. I'm talking to you, fellow Miqo'tes and Au Ra. Look at how the PC gets treated when trying to cooperate with the U to beat Titan. You get glared and spat on just for not being one of them, and you have to great strides to get their trust, often given even reluctantly.

Why is Jet'a xenophobic? He has lived in a Keeper family without outside contacts for all his childhood, until said contacts did arrive, in the form of a rival band of Duskwights, who first raided his family's territory in the forest and then sold them off to Ul'dahn black marketeers. It all went downhill from there in terms of trusting others for my character. His family was also strictly religious, the Matriarch emphatizing several times to not trust the outsiders, those who are not part of the family (and among these there was a particular special distaste for Seekers because of their completely opposite social structure).

So there is an example of what induces prejudice. Even if there hadn't been that raid in their camp, the simple tribal life that they conducted, isolated by all what's different is a pretty solid enough reason to discriminate. The stranger must not be welcomed with open arms, cause he could bite.

This connects to my general complaint that there doesn't seem to be enough distrust in general, which I think is a sign of general OOC leak from the community to make bonds form as fast as possible between your character and someone else's. I've had RPers ICly approach me all too easily, all too openly, giving me information that I'd never give to someone I've met for the first time of my life. Do you really walk up to the drugstore and share half your infancy story or sexual life with the man behind the counter? Or with the guy reading the newspaper next to you as you wait for the bus? Maybe Forrest Gump would, but I want to think the average Joe would not.

But I have said this plenty of times already, and in the end repeating it won't solve the issue. It's just me muttering at a rather consistent part of my open RP that I am not too fond of, and sadly "going to RP somewhere else" will not fix it.

Caspar · **08-03-2015, 05:04 AM**

It's been said "the player characters might not represent the majority, as they are a tiny fraction of Eorzea's population." *I've* said that the racism takes on more insidious and petty methods than outright racial violence, outside of the obvious Ishgard, since the alliance would need to have some pretense of cooperation to exist with its cultures as diverse as they are. Stretch your brain a little, get creative. There are more ways to discriminate than flinging slurs casually. And the people who argue there is not much racism *among adventurers* have plenty of good points.

I'm confused as to where this false impression came from: that if someone doesn't want to play racist characters, they believe it doesn't exist in setting. At most, it's been argued the racism is more subdued, such as exploitation, unfairness, and private/discrete bigotry, and not the "divided camps" form hatred a lot of you seem to think it is. I've already explained why the problem is with trying to coerce other rpers into NPCing for you rather than telling the story they want to, rather than using racism as a tool to build scenes.

To me it's a matter of observable intent. Some people want more racism in rp because it makes for interesting conflict. The others want it because they feel other players should behave in a certain way to maintain their impression of what the setting is like, rather than utilizing NPCs to do that for them. I do not thing the latter method is productive, but I sympathize with the desire to keep a playable setting narratively consistent.

I cannot escape the impression that this and a lot of other topics on here really boil down to the same fundamental problem, which is that myriad people interpret the same base setting in different ways and some want it all to be consistent, preferably in the way they like it. It is very much the epitome of the "nail that stands out gets hammered in" problem.

Kellach Woods · **08-03-2015, 06:21 AM**

(08-03-2015, 02:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: This is a game that literally has refugee camps for certain types of people. There are story NPCs (aka Raubahn) who are famous for overcoming the racial issues in their cities. I think Sounsy posted a tidbit from 1.0 on how it was a big deal that the Gladiator's guild decided to allow highlanders to compete.

Miqo'te in Gridania are often seen as a bunch of forest cat poachers, hyur in Ishgard are treated as lowborn, and all over you see racism against the beast tribes.

Racial tensions are EXPLICITY built into the lore, and much of it is quite nasty. I'm not saying anyone has to play an unrepentant racist, but to act like they don't exist is rather silly. If you want to play an open minded character that doesn't worry about race, then that's fine, more power to you. Just be aware your character is an exception (likely a positive one) and not the norm.

It wasn't "highlanders" but "Ala Mhigans". The majority are highlanders, but that's never been the point.

Also, you forgot about Duskwights in Gridania. I know they've been dethroned by the Au Ra but they were kind of in pole position of getting kicked in the junk for who they are prior.

The thing with accepting that racism is super-widespread and everywhere is that... beyond WHM/DRK 50+ and LNC/ARC1-30, and Ishgard MSQ (still think it's a class thing more so than a race thing on this part), there's just barely any mention of it. We already have several key triggers to change dialogue, you'd think they'd go out of their way to create racist-y dialogue for various races (duskwights in particular) but they deliberately chose to not do that.

Not saying it doesn't exist (most casual one I've seen were midlanders calling highlanders Roes or insisting they had Roe ancestry causing strife over at Buscarron's Druthers) but most are far more occupied with getting their base needs fulfilled than getting a hate-on over whoever doesn't look like them.

First food and shelter, then racism, kinda deal.

Kage · **08-03-2015, 08:28 AM**

(08-03-2015, 02:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(08-03-2015, 01:13 AM)Kage Wrote: In my view, there are notable racist tensions but it's not a tension where you would have many lynchings (barring the early 30?-50yrs ago Auri movement). Why was Sigurd left? What stopped? Is he the only? Does that mean it's less crucial? After that you have the Keeper/Duskwight issue in Gridania, notable for going against the pact in Twelveswood. You have Ala Mhigo who invaded Twelveswood... Ala Mhigans and those in the Twelveswood face discrimination on a different level because of being seen as a free-loader/bringing the forest's vengeance upon us. Au Ra seem to have the same free-loading thoughts as the Ala Mhigans? With extra dravanian-flavor in Ishgard.

And yet, the Mongrel is listened to by Elezen and Hyur in Ishgard. The mongrel still had clout. She still had voice. I have never really seen major "well you have some type of business / Â trade / gil to offer me. I don't want no Lalafell in my establishment! You Lalafell go to ____ for service!"

This is a game that literally has refugee camps for certain types of people. There are story NPCs (aka Raubahn) who are famous for overcoming the racial issues in their cities. I think Sounsy posted a tidbit from 1.0 on how it was a big deal that the Gladiator's guild decided to allow highlanders to compete.

Miqo'te in Gridania are often seen as a bunch of forest cat poachers, hyur in Ishgard are treated as lowborn, and all over you see racism against the beast tribes.

Racial tensions are EXPLICITY built into the lore, and much of it is quite nasty. I'm not saying anyone has to play an unrepentant racist, but to act like they don't exist is rather silly. If you want to play an open minded character that doesn't worry about race, then that's fine, more power to you. Just be aware your character is an exception (likely a positive one) and not the norm.

Before you respond to me further, pray tell me where I denied that there is racism. Also tell me what differences there are between what I have said and what you have said, and explore what these differences actually imply.

(08-03-2015, 06:21 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: The thing with accepting that racism is super-widespread and everywhere is that... Ishgard MSQ (still think it's a class thing more so than a race thing on this part), there's just barely any mention of it

I believe it's a case of classism bred from racism type of thing. Hyur are low-born because of

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. However, it is also due the whole Hyuran vs Elezen warring that Koji Fox has been quoted about.

Ignacius · **08-03-2015, 09:05 AM**

Basically, I think the OP is wondering if there should be more diversity of thought in our characters. Â That's a fair question, honestly. Â The percentage of people who are racist in our society seems a lot higher than in our player characters.

It's also necessary to keep in mind that our people are Adventurers, and as such are both travelers and warriors. Â Generally speaking, our characters are naturally less prone to that kind of ignorance. Â I mean, we can do quests for friendly beastmen, so the Au Ra should be a bit easier to deal with than that (they aren't constantly summoning primals to kill us). Â So there's a game reason for that.

But, simply from a mechanical perspective, being racist might be a problem. Â However, it should be noted that you don't have to be a hood-wearing KKK member to have that nuance. Â Orleans doesn't particularly like working with Miqo'te because he sees them as generally flighty. Â Whether that's true in all cases, it's his gut reaction.

Tribesmen aren't included, of course, but then they're a different breed as far as he's concerned.

Verad · **08-03-2015, 10:03 AM**

(08-03-2015, 09:05 AM)Ignacius Wrote: But, simply from a mechanical perspective, being racist might be a problem. Â However, it should be noted that you don't have to be a hood-wearing KKK member to have that nuance. Â Orleans doesn't particularly like working with Miqo'te because he sees them as generally flighty. Â Whether that's true in all cases, it's his gut reaction.

I would be surprised and frankly impressed at the chutzpah of the player that didÂ attempt to be a hood-wearing KKK member or equivalent. Part of the reason the amount of effort put into these arguments continues to baffle me is that it involves ardently advocating for the right to have a new category of mean comments to make and little else. Rarely, if ever, does the IC racism of the racist character in question go further than that.

And really, there are lots of ways it couldÂ go further. Presuming the argument that Eorzea is pretty racist when reading between the lines to be true, I could easily see a darker interpretation of Gridania in which men come in the night to deal with the new Duskwight that's shown up in the village and been causing all sorts of trouble with the elementals (they're sure he's the one, he has to be). I could see well-off nobles in Ishgard playing all sorts of games with the Hyur masses for sport, because really, who matters that would actually care as long as there isn't a big fuss about it? The possibility of violence against Ala Mhigans in Ul'dah goes without saying, and Limsa's piratical tendencies could allow for pirate gangs of a specific breed that give no quarter against any other.

We talk about nuance in racism. We talk about making it believable and plausible and contributing to verisimilitude. But we don't want tooÂ much of any of the above, really. Snide comments and minor arguments. Maybe a little abuse of authority in the characters that have it. Not much else.

Which, well, if you needed eight pages to get permission for that, wish granted. Go forth and be snide. You have my dubious blessing.

LiadansWhisper · **08-03-2015, 01:56 PM**

(08-03-2015, 10:03 AM)Verad Wrote: And really, there are lots of ways it couldÂ go further. Presuming the argument that Eorzea is pretty racist when reading between the lines to be true, I could easily see a darker interpretation of Gridania in which men come in the night to deal with the new Duskwight that's shown up in the village and been causing all sorts of trouble with the elementals (they're sure he's the one, he has to be). I could see well-off nobles in Ishgard playing all sorts of games with the Hyur masses for sport, because really, who matters that would actually care as long as there isn't a big fuss about it? The possibility of violence against Ala Mhigans in Ul'dah goes without saying, and Limsa's piratical tendencies could allow for pirate gangs of a specific breed that give no quarter against any other.

Actually, the stuff you outlined in Gridania probably does happen in more isolated, out-of-the-way villages where Conjurers and Wailers pass through more rarely. And we already know that the Ishgard nobles have been toying with Hyur women (and probably men, too) for hundreds of years now. Â There are enough NPC comments as you wander around to make it clear that most of the servant staff are Hyur, and that the women are often "meddled with." Â Hilda is another great example of that.

Verad · **08-03-2015, 03:51 PM**

(08-03-2015, 01:56 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Actually, the stuff you outlined in Gridania probably does happen in more isolated, out-of-the-way villages where Conjurers and Wailers pass through more rarely. And we already know that the Ishgard nobles have been toying with Hyur women (and probably men, too) for hundreds of years now. Â There are enough NPC comments as you wander around to make it clear that most of the servant staff are Hyur, and that the women are often "meddled with." Â Hilda is another great example of that.

I don't doubt it, and in Gridania's case I am in fact kind of banking on it in future events! What I doubt is the desire of players who are interested in playing racism when it comes to portraying the real extremes of racism. If the evidence in-game suggests that racism can get that overt and brutal, then the expressions of racism desired by the OP and others in this thread seems sort of . . . soft, in comparison.Â

I find it unlikely, for example, that Kale is going to have a moment where he gets some Blades together and strings up some Ala Mhigan unfortunates in an expression of nationalist sentiment. Such a thing would be a powerful scene, I think, if played effectively, in which he makes clear that he has cast aside ethnicity in favor of nationality, even though he is in a nation in which he himself would admit he can only be a second-class city given the dominance of lalafell in its ruling class. But it is more likely that Verad will shave off his beard before that happens.*

So what's being argued isn't the extremes of racism, but rather the right to rude remarks and mild bigotry, using the implied extremes of Eorzean racism to justify it. I'm not sure if the point is to show they could be RPing much worse than what is available or if the two are being conflated as identical expressions of racism, but really, it seems very mild. Make remarks, by all means! When somebody forms a PC lynch mob to hunt down undeserving Duskwights, then I'll take more interest.

*I bring up Kale as an example here only because I am at least passingly familar with his character and because this is a frequent concern of his, not out of any particular rancor.

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Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism

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