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Jana · **09-12-2015, 01:14 AM**

(09-11-2015, 07:22 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Her mask actually goes a long way towards making her creepy!

The mask is a step in the right direction and I'm glad people dig my use of it, but Jana is actually more confident when she wears it. Problem is, the times she isn't wearing it tend to outnumber when she does, and I worry I'm not putting enough effort into making her look the way she does to me for others to "see" in their memory of her.

Caspar · **09-12-2015, 05:35 AM**

I like to describe the parts of a character's appearance that stand out, and let the other character come to their own conclusions about it. I think that if someone uses "beautiful" to describe their character, they're referring to the general cultural expectations of the character's background, or the setting overall. Though usually I try to account for differing preferences. I could see some Ul'dahn Lalafell finding Virara fascinating because of her odd height, so I described her as having a statuesque sort of beauty, but I also think there are those who feel threatened by taller women, or find her frigid-looking. Not everyone will react the same way, I think.

It's lucky however that I don't really need to engage with perceptions coming the other way. Virara does not really have much of an interest in romance, so all of her observations are generally objective things or her personal impression, like "you're weak-looking," or "you're fat," or "you look strong," "your eyebrows are big," etc. There really isn't any room for like or dislike physically; all of the things that draw her inexplicably to another person are mental/emotional.

Kellach Woods · **09-13-2015, 07:59 AM**

I let others creep on the character if they so wish. The prettiness has been granted by others, not me.

I also try to stick with factual descriptions of Kell or focus on non-subjective adjectives.

Eses Fafa · **09-13-2015, 09:21 AM**

I usually describe characters with the base facts about them, with very little opinion-based descriptions. Things like saying a character is pretty ripped would mean all manner of things to a person, but the general idea is that they would have some muscle and a six/eight pack.
Things that boil down to the emotional side of things however..

Engineer:Â Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy.

Strangely this seems quite profound to me since it's quite right, and someone may find a common man/woman with a scarred face more attractive than a well-bred lord/lady of the same age and race.
The same goes for fear, and sometimes even smell as some people might find certain scents repulsive whilst others are drawn to it.

To put words like 'beauty' in to describe a person seems quite arrogant in my eyes, as it's up to the others to determine whether they are beautiful or not via a state of opinion, and anyone who attempts to force anything like that on me will be met with IMMEDIATE disdain, and will have their 'beautiful' features ignored in RP or generally placed in a comical light to downgrade the level of seriousness that RPer has put in their character.

Paradox · **09-13-2015, 10:25 AM**

Everyone will have an opinion of whether a character is beautiful based on the person's description of their character in Roleplay. Which is, pardon the pun, the beauty of it.

For my part, this is how A'rklonn views himself, which is all that matters to him.

Edit: Stupid links, ugh. Just watch the I'm Too Sexy video, you'll get the idea. xD

Martiallais · **09-13-2015, 03:33 PM**

Short answer: Everyone else? In the case of Mar at least.

Long answer: I never set out to make an overly handsome/beautiful/whatever-word-you-wish sort of character, it's been the interactions with other people both IC and OOC that actually nudged me to consider making it (a certain level of attractiveness according to the standards of the world/game/etc) a part of the character.

I honestly couldn't tell you what apparent magical combination jackpot I chose but the number of random complimentary 'wow your character is really _____!' whispers has become a running thing. Even on the (still wip) wiki entry, I don't touch on it myself. The brief mention I have ready to add to his Fate-14 page (as a stunt mind you) states that he'd only get a brief bonus to interactions during a scene if the person interacting with him finds him attractive because I wouldn't want to try and force anything on anyone else.

Personally? Cliche as it sounds, I always figure if someone finds him attractive it's because he has a warm, welcoming personality and all.

Desitjant · **09-13-2015, 04:05 PM**

(09-11-2015, 08:27 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: Isn't beauty subjective?

...In essence, is the beauty of the character truly judged by the player themselves or the audience? If someone makes a character everyone considers ugly, except themselves, should they really lazily describe themselves as "beautiful"? Should they get upset when other characters don't act with praise towards their appearance?

There are actually multiple schools of thought pertaining to this topic.

"Classical" beauty is actually objective; it is defined by mathematical proportions that were established in Greco-Roman art and revived multiple times by Western European cultures. There are specific ratios for the face as well as the body as a whole (which one could break down further). I won't get list the details here, unless someone asks for it, but good example of a person with a classically beautiful face is Scarlett Johansson; her face has a high degree of symmetry, and the ratios between:

hairline/forehead/brow/eye/nose/mouth/chin (vertical)
eye/nose/eye (horizontal)

are all quite close to the "ideal".

This is not to say that value only derives from numbers; rather, in this context, "beauty" is an objective concept, whereas "attractiveness" encompasses the subjective part. We might find the color of someone's eyes to be particularly alluring or compelling - that attribute just isn't a component of the classical formula.

*It should also be noted that "classical" beauty also applies to architecture and artistic composition (the term "the golden ratio" originated within architectural theory.

As far as RP goes, I consider a description of a character as "beautiful" to be more along the lines of "unhelpful" than anything else. If someone asked you to use the CC to create a "beautiful" Elezen alongside a "normal" Elezen, what differences would you make? Aside from shying away from some of the more obviously strange faces, I doubt most of us have any idea.

In Eorzea, we are provided with little to no information as to what the different races and cultures perceive as (physically) beautiful. Aside from that sorta creepy "bodice assessor" Hyur in Limsa Lominsa. For all we know, Every Miqo'te without the fluffy tail may be considered super homely XD

Dis · **09-13-2015, 05:09 PM**

I tend to describe physical features for my character, without actually bothering to describe the beauty of a character.Â A couple of my characters are described as average, and I never really bother to say 'beautiful'.Â I will use terms like statuesque, and describing certain aspects of their frame, etc, as supple, or toned, etc.Â Things that are meant to describe shape more than 'Oh look, this is pretty.'

I'm very much of the belief that beauty is a matter of perception, and so I don't bother to detail that my characters are or are not physically attractive.Â Because everyone will read my descriptions in RP, and make up their own opinions of whether or not their character will find mine beautiful.Â

That's basically what it boils down to.Â What's beautiful to one person is only passable to another person, and no two people will find the same exact physical traits beautiful in someone.Â So, if someone says their character is beautiful, it won't matter unless whatever character you're playing agrees with that viewpoint.

Leanne · **09-13-2015, 08:50 PM**

Like others have stated, I never in RP state Leanne as beautiful. I consider her particularly pretty, but others might not agree. It does not stop me from throwing out visible gestures that may hint at her being pretty. Her sweet smile, graceful posture, or her golden, almost glowing eyes to mention a few.

One characteristic that I never mentioned (or thought of!) but friends began to RP while expressing their vision of Leanne is the "unique" hip sway she has while walking. Things like that are fun to add to your character, in my opinion, leaving them more colorful!

ImmoralAria · **09-14-2015, 01:41 AM**

This is something I've actually struggled with a great deal with my character. I play an older Miqo'te woman, whom was a mercenary for most of her life. Her body is supposed to be gnarled and full of old scars. But I simply don't have the ability to show this to people, as I would picture her swimsuit laden body to be quite a ghastly sight, but instead people see her in-game model which is the standard slim miqo'te body. It's actually quite frustrating to me, because if I want to point it out I have to type up quite the description, and it's really cumbersome in large settings.

LadyRochester · **09-14-2015, 09:47 AM**

(09-11-2015, 02:33 PM)Verad Wrote: This thread exists because RPers are spiteful, contrarian little shits who don't like being told what to do - but only if they're told to view a character positively.

There is no quibbling over "ugly." There is no quibbling over other vague descriptors that imply other informed traits like "sickly" or "plain." It is only when a player dares suggest a character is viewed in a positive fashion that players get their hackles up and start fleeing to the warm, inviting confines of subjectivity.

This is the wit thread, redux.

Except that it's not. Mental faculties are far less open to subjectivity than beauty. However, I am not going to argue about intelligence again, this is not the thread for it.

And yes, I do mean "ugly" characters as well. I saw a roleplayer once say their character was "ugly"without giving much context as to why, in fact, in game, they looked better looking than average. When I sent them a /tell asking why they considered their character "ugly", they basically responded "he has tiny eyes and a biggish nose."

Features that to me, and to people in general, are not enough to make a character "ugly". I am not treating a character as if they were unattractive when they are hardly described as such, and all you get is an "He's ugly" description.

Claiming subjectivity regarding positive traits is the only one that is truly problematic is frankly idiotic. Not every roleplayer that points this out is a bitter little shit.

Same thing goes for "good" and "evil" characters. I had roleplayers tell me their characters are incredibly evil when their actions are considered mildly questionable at best. Then get annoyed if my character doesn't act terrorized/intimidated by them. Is "evil" a positive trait now?

I speak of lazy description when people force their views upon others without truly baking up their claims. When they expect special treatment because their characters are "ugly" orÂ "beautiful" without backing it up. If something is subjective, regardless of it being positive or negative, a roelplayer should not expect others to bend backwards to cater to their beliefs. It's stupidly inconsiderate and lazy.

That's like me saying "Sasha Rochester is the ugliest, bitchiest, stupidest person in Eorzea! She also smells!" I can say it all I want, but if I gent angry when other roleplyers don't agree, I'm probably a bloody idiot. After all, roleplay is more about "show, don't tell." and being so vague with description makes your roleplay seem flat and boring.

Berrod Armstrong · **09-14-2015, 10:00 AM**

(09-14-2015, 09:47 AM)LadyRochester Wrote:
(09-11-2015, 02:33 PM)Verad Wrote: This thread exists because RPers are spiteful, contrarian little shits who don't like being told what to do - but only if they're told to view a character positively.

There is no quibbling over "ugly." There is no quibbling over other vague descriptors that imply other informed traits like "sickly" or "plain." It is only when a player dares suggest a character is viewed in a positive fashion that players get their hackles up and start fleeing to the warm, inviting confines of subjectivity.

This is the wit thread, redux.

Except that it's not. Mental faculties are far less open to subjectivity than beauty. However, I am not going to argue about intelligence again, this is not the thread for it.

And yes, I do mean "ugly" characters as well. I saw a roleplayer once say their character was "ugly"without giving much context as to why, in fact, in game, they looked better looking than average. When I sent them a /tell asking why they considered their character "ugly", they basically responded "he has tiny eyes and a biggish nose."

Features that to me, and to people in general, are not enough to make a character "ugly". I am not treating a character as if they were unattractive when they are hardly described as such, and all you get is an "He's ugly" description.

Claiming subjectivity regarding positive traits is the only one that is truly problematic is frankly idiotic. Not every roleplayer that points this out is a bitter little shit.

Same thing goes for "good" and "evil" characters. I had roleplayers tell me their characters are incredibly evil when their actions are considered mildly questionable at best. Then get annoyed if my character doesn't act terrorized/intimidated by them. Is "evil" a positive trait now?

I speak of lazy description when people force their views upon others without truly baking up their claims. When they expect special treatment because their characters are "ugly" orÂ "beautiful" without backing it up. If something is subjective, regardless of it being positive or negative, a roelplayer should not expect others to bend backwards to cater to their beliefs. It's stupidly inconsiderate and lazy.

That's like me saying "Sasha Rochester is the ugliest, bitchiest, stupidest person in Eorzea! She also smells!" I can say it all I want, but if I gent angry when other roleplyers don't agree, I'm probably a bloody idiot. After all, roleplay is more about "show, don't tell." and being so vague with description makes your roleplay seem flat and boring.

I won't go into much input on -- well, the meat of what is being argued between the two posts above, but I feel the need to make a sincere plea for more...constructive language when it comes to discussing roleplay. This isn't just targeted at the posters I've quoted in particular, but it's a general outreach. I'm quoting this particular thread of posts because it was the one that actually made me lean back in my seat and say -whoa-.

I read what was said above and I see merit in it on both sides of the argument. However, I can't help but feel a little odd about the way things are put across. There are...a lot of new roleplayers who read these threads. A lot of shy roleplayers. A lot of roleplayers who want to learn, but struggle with issues of self confidence, or simply some who need a little bit of positive encouragement -- or to read a simple discussion on things.Â

Calling something 'stupidly inconsiderate and lazy', 'idiotic', or flat out saying someone's roleplay is 'flat and boring' can very well turn off a novice roleplayer (or shy roleplayer, or a struggling roleplayer) from going forward and learning. I understand that people may hold this view and I respect that they are entitled to their opinions. It is though, a shared space among many and in the end we just want to be excellent to each other and promote a healthy environment where everyone can grow.Â

So much of what is discussed here is extremely helpful, but it all goes down the drain if it's put across poorly. Please, I beg of you, all of you, let us consider how our points are presented, and have consideration for those who may be reading them to learn from them.Â

My apologies if this post is not in tune with the thread's discussion, but I really think that it needed to be said. Thank you.

***Alothia*** · **09-14-2015, 10:04 AM**

Modhat: So hey, all. What Berrod said may not fit within the context of the thread, but I think that it bears hearing.

Do be considerate of people who come here to read these threads, and do your best to make this place on that is constructive instead of destructive. I'll leave it all as is for now, but please consider this as a warning to all involved in this discussion.

Thanks!

LadyRochester · **09-14-2015, 10:11 AM**

(09-14-2015, 10:00 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: I won't go into much input on -- well, the meat of what is being argued between the two posts above, but I feel the need to make a sincere plea for more...constructive language when it comes to discussing roleplay. This isn't just targeted at the posters I've quoted in particular, but it's a general outreach. I'm quoting this particular thread of posts because it was the one that actually made me lean back in my seat and say -whoa-.

I read what was said above and I see merit in it on both sides of the argument. However, I can't help but feel a little odd about the way things are put across. There are...a lot of new roleplayers who read these threads. A lot of shy roleplayers. A lot of roleplayers who want to learn, but struggle with issues of self confidence, or simply some who need a little bit of positive encouragement -- or to read a simple discussion on things.Â

Calling something 'stupidly inconsiderate and lazy', 'idiotic', or flat out saying someone's roleplay is 'flat and boring' can very well turn off a novice roleplayer (or shy roleplayer, or a struggling roleplayer) from going forward and learning. I understand that people may hold this view and I respect that they are entitled to their opinions. It is though, a shared space among many and in the end we just want to be excellent to each other and promote a healthy environment where everyone can grow.Â

So much of what is discussed here is extremely helpful, but it all goes down the drain if it's put across poorly. Please, I beg of you, all of you, let us consider how our points are presented, and have consideration for those who may be reading them to learn from them.Â

My apologies if this post is not in tune with the thread's discussion, but I really think that it needed to be said. Thank you.

I'm a fairly new roleplayer myself, and I am far from perfect. However, my point stands, whether it is used with raw language or more "pretty" words. Expecting others to cater to you IS inconsiderate and lazy. This is not only how roleplay works, but also how life works. If you're hardly putting forth any effort, you shouldn't expect others to fall to their knees for you.Â

The reality is, if there is nos substance to your character, there will be no substance to your roleplay. I can't put it in nicer terms than this. When I first started in RP, I made a lot of Rookie mistakes I wish people had poined out to me instead of having to sit down and have to figure it out myself, to this day, I cringe at some of the posts I made.

Mind you, I started RPing little over a year ago. Granted, some people are not as open to criticism, and I do apologize for the language I used, my intention was not to harm or discourage other roleplayers from experimenting with styles. Ultimately, it's their choice as to how they roleplay.

Hammersmith · **09-14-2015, 10:48 AM**

Society has a broad idea of what it wants "Pretty" to be but here in the world of RP we get to saddle it all on our little pretendy-man and force them to dance to the tune.

Hammer lacks beauty. Â Which means having a concept of it to defy and work against. Â It's a combination, for me, of personal respect for the self (EX appearance and basic self care can suffer easily for your average schlub) and personal respect for others you're going to run into (EX 2: But can clean up to a solid 6 if they try).

Appearance plays a roll, both in how things are carried, everything from shoulders to brow to legs to stance. Â Beauty is a full form involvement that requires brain and body demonstrating a control of appearance. Â Beauty can be horrific. Beauty can be intimidating. Â It can be haunting, or strange, or alien. Â In the end it's what keeps us staring in fascination instead of revulsion at something. Â Which means it's reliant on the brain behind it and why it's trying, or even incidentally framed "beautiful" by it's actions and currently worn skin-mask.

So? Â How do you do ugly? Â You grind a lack of personal pride and attention to others into an entirety. Â No one hits on Hammersmith, in spite of the "Chicks dig scars" and "Roes get swarmed in the quicksand" stereotypes. Â Where other large scarred muscled Roes get tells asking them to break them in half, I don't get anything.

Why? Â I like to think everything Hammersmith DOES is ugly. Â From his mad red eye to the smothering cloud of ash and smoke that he spits out, constantly. Â He's in this for him. Â He doesnt' dress up. Â He's not looking or attentive to others unless it benefits him in some way, however short or long term. Â His scars aren't held well. Â His personality could crack glass with a good cuss. Â His body posture is closed and unwelcoming.

He's an asshole and that does NOT scream beauty or attractive.

It screams: "I hope I'm not next to him when a fight starts"

If beauty is subjective, who defines the beauty of your character?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes