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Sounsyy · **08-16-2016, 09:16 PM**

(08-16-2016, 08:42 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 12:57 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Quite literally said nothing about expecting others to play up to your standards. I only said that if you have the know-how, don't be part of the problem by also playing low-effort, even if everyone else in your PUG is.

But now that you mention it, I find it hilarious that the FFXIV community at large considers using 1/3 of your skillset as "Endgame-level" exclusive LOL. Like, WHMs or SCHs haven't had almost all of their DPS abilities by the early lv30s or 40s. Like only endgame level Tanks need to use cooldowns because there are no tank busters in Roulette dungeons?

To characterize Tanking cooldowns as not an actual part of the Tanking role in order to justify the idea that DPS is part of the Healer role is just...

It's disingenuous at best.

On the contrary, I believe defensive cooldowns are as essential to the tank's role as dps is to a healer's role. But also that either role can choose not to do these things and get away with it because another role will cover for them. A healer will cover for a tank not using cooldowns. The damage dealers will cover for a healer not using dps.

In short, my opinion is that if the game gives your class an ability (or nearly a dozen of them) it's probably part of your role to use them, even if it's not your primary function in a party. A tank's primary function is to hold enmity, it's secondary function is to help the healer keep it alive.

Caspar · **08-16-2016, 09:28 PM**

In actuality healer DPS can be crucial to clearing instances. In some raids I was in back during my Coil days, we had BLM that were struggling to adjust to the mechanics of a given particular fight and in the early parts of the raid, rather than continuing to languish on the pre-dps check phases, our SCH would very aggressively try to DoT and Ruin his way to picking up the slack. In time we were able to adjust to the point that we didn't need the extra damage push, but the optimization time a damage-happy healer can offer is really helpful both for learning purposes and for making the DPS's job easier.Â
I see this attitude constantly and it saddens me: raiding and normal gameplay aren't different games. The hardcore crowd aren't some separate species to be suspected and feared. Just because I'm a sucker for punishment and like getting killed a lot by really difficult encounters doesn't mean that I'm somehow in another world and the knowledge I picked up through playing with skilled players is meaningless. It's old and rusty by now, but it still gives me the sense that by putting the whole extent of my skills from hard encounters to use in easy encounters, like Expert, I'm lessening the burden on other players. I think the game overall would benefit from the mindset that you have a responsibility to other players to offer your best play if it's with strangers, and save messing around or lazy play for when you're with friends who don't care. I feel hard work has inherent value. It is difficult for me to understand at times that this isn't a universally accepted concept, but the difference between hard content and casual daily content is a matter of degrees, not mutually unintelligible gameplay mechanics that have nothing whatsoever to do with one another. If it is useful to DPS in raids, it is useful to DPS in dungeons. If you do not wish to do these things, that's your own choice, but I think that other party members have the right to expect as much from their healers as they do other roles. I spent ages teaching people how to go through Pharos Sirius before the nerfs; I think I have enough patience to drop once or twice helping a new healer figure out how long they can stay in Clerics before it becomes hazardous to the tank's health. For that reason, I'd rather a healer that does damage than a healer who focuses solely on keeping me alive.

LiadansWhisper · **08-16-2016, 09:33 PM**

(08-16-2016, 09:16 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: On the contrary, I believe defensive cooldowns are as essential to the tank's role as dps is to a healer's role. But also that either role can choose not to do these things and get away with it because another role will cover for them. A healer will cover for a tank not using cooldowns. The damage dealers will cover for a healer not using dps.

In short, my opinion is that if the game gives your class an ability (or nearly a dozen of them) it's probably part of your role to use them, even if it's not your primary function in a party. A tank's primary function is to hold enmity, it's secondary function is to help the healer keep it alive.

Tanking CDs are part of what Tanks need in order to tank. DPS spells are not, in any way, part of what Healers need in order to heal*.

We simply have entirely different viewpoints on what a tank's role is (the idea that tanking CDs are not needed to tank properly is just...it's ludicrous) and is not, so there's not much point in even continuing the conversation.

* Unless, of course, you're playing a Chloromancer, Defiler, or Disc Priest, in which case, DPS spells are a core part of how you heal, and are thus completely necessary in order to heal as they are the entire point of your class/spec and you literally lack true direct healing spells that will work in the absence of DPS.

Caspar · **08-16-2016, 09:36 PM**

(08-16-2016, 09:33 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 09:16 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: On the contrary, I believe defensive cooldowns are as essential to the tank's role as dps is to a healer's role. But also that either role can choose not to do these things and get away with it because another role will cover for them. A healer will cover for a tank not using cooldowns. The damage dealers will cover for a healer not using dps.

In short, my opinion is that if the game gives your class an ability (or nearly a dozen of them) it's probably part of your role to use them, even if it's not your primary function in a party. A tank's primary function is to hold enmity, it's secondary function is to help the healer keep it alive.

Tanking CDs are part of what Tanks need in order to tank. Â DPS spells are not, in any way, part of what Healers need in order to heal*.

We simply have entirely different viewpoints on what a tank's role is (the idea that tanking CDs are not needed to tank properly is just...it's ludicrous) and is not, so there's not much point in even continuing the conversation.

* Unless, of course, you're playing a Chloromancer, Defiler, or Disc Priest, in which case, DPS spells are a core part of how you heal, and are thus completely necessary in order to heal as they are the entire point of your class/spec and you literally lack true direct healing spells that will work in the absence of DPS.

Technically speaking, if the monster dies faster, it does less damage to the party, and therefore there is less effective healing needed? Granted, this also applies to the tank. I often joke that my tanking style is "if I kill it fast, nobody takes damage and therefore I tanked it for them."

But then again, that's kinda my point. DPS is a shared responsibility in this game, moreso than in other MMO, it seems. I don't know any other way to explain it. Combat roles have more than one purpose.*Shrug*

LiadansWhisper · **08-16-2016, 09:38 PM**

(08-16-2016, 09:36 PM)Caspar Wrote: Technically speaking, if the monster dies faster, it does less damage to the party, and therefore there is less effective healing needed? Granted, this also applies to the tank. I often joke that my tanking style is "if I kill it fast, nobody takes damage and therefore I tanked it for them."

But then again, that's kinda my point. DPS is a shared responsibility in this game, moreso than in other MMO, it seems. I don't know any other way to explain it. Combat roles have more than one purpose.*Shrug*

I remain unconvinced that Healer or Tank damage is necessary in Experts unless the DPS are complete failures at the game.

I also remain unconvinced that it's necessary or wise to expect raid-level performance from people pugging through a random-match system.

And I further remain unconvinced that any of this justifies the kind of abuse I've witnessed in the Roulette system.

Kilieit · **08-16-2016, 09:47 PM**

I think the problem comes where your hard work doesn't look like my hard work.

I'm disabled and find the game difficult anyway, so what probably looks like "lazy" to a lot of you is actually "me trying my hardest and still falling short".

Like, I know in principle that positionals are important, or rotating cooldowns is important, or balancing Cleric Stance is important. But actually doing that is a totally different matter. I suck at it. I try, and I try, and I practice, and I take casual content as a learning opportunity, and I ask my FC for learning runs, and I practice some more, and I try, and I still suck. I always have, through 10 years of WoW and now 6 months of FFXIV.

Because I'm disabled, yo. That's kind of what the word means. I try as much as anyone else and get less results.

I don't think that means I should be banned from ever using the roulette feature. No one's wiping and my dungeon runs typically don't go over 30 minutes (which is the max time SE expects you to reasonably spend on a dungeon roulette). I'm not joining people's EX primal farm parties or what have you where a rapid clear time can make the difference between a successful farm and a failed one. And I'm still doing my best whenever I enter a dungeon, even if "my best" looks different on that day than it did yesterday (because disabled, yo).

I even get comms sometimes! A lot of the time, actually!

Which is why I don't think it's as black and white as "healers who Cleric Stance are doing their job, healers who don't are bad and lazy".

I also don't think "ever mentioning Cleric Stance in the presence of a healer who isn't already using it is bad and and mean".

I think there should be a little more consideration that other people are different people with different skills and backgrounds and that they're, y'know, allowed to play the game too; and they don't really deserve to be berated for it, especially if they're still bringing the right attitude (willing to learn and/or adapt, trying their hardest, wanting to cooperate with the group to complete the run in a reasonable time).

Ironically, that last paragraph is kind of what I was trying to say to OP, too. xD

Sounsyy · **08-16-2016, 10:11 PM**

(08-16-2016, 09:33 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 09:16 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: On the contrary, I believe defensive cooldowns are as essential to the tank's role as dps is to a healer's role. But also that either role can choose not to do these things and get away with it because another role will cover for them. A healer will cover for a tank not using cooldowns. The damage dealers will cover for a healer not using dps.

In short, my opinion is that if the game gives your class an ability (or nearly a dozen of them) it's probably part of your role to use them, even if it's not your primary function in a party. A tank's primary function is to hold enmity, it's secondary function is to help the healer keep it alive.

Tanking CDs are part of what Tanks need in order to tank. DPS spells are not, in any way, part of what Healers need in order to heal*.

We simply have entirely different viewpoints on what a tank's role is (the idea that tanking CDs are not needed to tank properly is just...it's ludicrous) and is not, so there's not much point in even continuing the conversation.

I'm assuming you define tank in two parts:
1] a party member who controls enmity.
2] a party member who can withstand heavy damage.

While only defining a Healer as:
1] a party member who heals.

Unfortunately, the reality is that a tank class can queue up for Expert, grab hate on everything, and never once pop a single cooldown for the entire dungeon. I've seen it, frequently! They've effectively "tanked" the dungeon, albeit incredibly inefficiently and painfully. But "did we wipe?" Nope. "Did we complete in 35 minutes instead of 30 minutes?" Yep. "Did the tank lose aggro and kill anybody?" Nope! Welp, according to this same very thread: Mission Complete! It is just an expert after all.

But you and I both agree that that's no damned way to tank. It's just not. But it's literally how a good portion of tanks play. Minimal Effort. Sadly, this isn't every other MMO. And despite the name, Healers don't just heal either. FFXIV defines a Healer as:
1] a party member who heals.
2] a party member who assists dps.

And I know that's not like anything most people have ever done apparently, but it's how the role plays in this game. So, you can do like tanks and do minimal effort, or you can do just a little bit to assist the other players in your party. It's not necessary for completion. It isn't. But unfortunately, the same can be said of defensive cooldowns.

Lemme use WAR as an example. I could go through my rotations, deal damage to build on my self healing, pop defensive cooldowns in time with my tanking rotation, and generally manage just fine on most expert bosses largely by myself self-healing and assisting with dps. OR, I could not pop any one of my seven defensive cooldowns and just let my massive HP pool keep me up while the healer cure bombs me frantically. In both scenarios everybody still fulfilled their primary holy-trinity roles, but because of my failing to fulfill my secondary role helping my healer, my healer no longer had the option to help the dps.

(08-16-2016, 09:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I remain unconvinced that Healer or Tank damage is necessary in Experts unless the DPS are complete failures at the game.

Totally not necessary at all for completion. But assuming a dungeon is designed around exclusively the DPS's potential output. Adding in the healer's and tank's dps just kills things that much quicker. If the Tank and the Healer pull down 800 dps each, that's 1600 additional dps, the equivalent of having a third damage dealer while tank and healer still perform their primary functions of "the party didn't die!" Win win!

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-16-2016, 10:15 PM**

(08-16-2016, 10:11 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 09:33 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 09:16 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: On the contrary, I believe defensive cooldowns are as essential to the tank's role as dps is to a healer's role. But also that either role can choose not to do these things and get away with it because another role will cover for them. A healer will cover for a tank not using cooldowns. The damage dealers will cover for a healer not using dps.

In short, my opinion is that if the game gives your class an ability (or nearly a dozen of them) it's probably part of your role to use them, even if it's not your primary function in a party. A tank's primary function is to hold enmity, it's secondary function is to help the healer keep it alive.

Tanking CDs are part of what Tanks need in order to tank. Â DPS spells are not, in any way, part of what Healers need in order to heal*.

We simply have entirely different viewpoints on what a tank's role is (the idea that tanking CDs are not needed to tank properly is just...it's ludicrous) and is not, so there's not much point in even continuing the conversation.

I'm assuming you define tank in two parts:
1] a party member who controls enmity.
2] a party member who can withstand heavy damage.

While only defining a Healer as:
1] a party member who heals.

Unfortunately, the reality is that a tank class can queue up for Expert, grab hate on everything, and never once pop a single cooldown for the entire dungeon. I've seen it, frequently! They've effectively "tanked" the dungeon, albeit incredibly inefficiently and painfully. But "did we wipe?" Nope. "Did we complete in 35 minutes instead of 30 minutes?" Yep. "Did the tank lose aggro and kill anybody?" Nope! Welp, according to this same very thread: Mission Complete! It is just an expert after all.

But you and I both agree that that's no damned way to tank. It's just not. But it's literally how a good portion of tanks play. Minimal Effort. Sadly, this isn't every other MMO. And despite the name, Healers don't just heal either. FFXIV defines a Healer as:
1] a party member who heals.
2] a party member who assists dps.

And I know that's not like anything most people have ever done apparently, but it's how the role plays in this game. So, you can do like tanks and do minimal effort, or you can do just a little bit to assist the other players in your party. It's not necessary for completion. It isn't. But unfortunately, the same can be said of defensive cooldowns.

Lemme use WAR as an example. I could go through my rotations, deal damage to build on my self healing, pop defensive cooldowns in time with my tanking rotation, and generally manage just fine on most expert bosses largely by myself self-healing and assisting with dps. OR, I could not pop any one of my seven defensive cooldowns and just let my massive HP pool keep me up while the healer cure bombs me frantically. In both scenarios everybody still fulfilled their primary holy-trinity roles, but because of my failing to fulfill my secondary role helping my healer, my healer no longer had the option to help the dps.

(08-16-2016, 09:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I remain unconvinced that Healer or Tank damage is necessary in Experts unless the DPS are complete failures at the game.

Totally not necessary at all for completion. But assuming a dungeon is designed around exclusively the DPS's potential output. Adding in the healer's and tank's dps just kills things that much quicker. If the Tank and the Healer pull down 800 dps each, that's 1600 additional dps, the equivalent of having a third damage dealer while tank and healer still perform their primary functions of "the party didn't die!" Win win!

Sounsy it's ok.Â

They're not going to admit that they're playing their class wrong.Â

I don't think you're going to convince them.

Kage · **08-16-2016, 10:22 PM**

I believe the general response (barring a few) have been a) just put your best foot forward to your potential and b) we won't berate you, we might bitch and vent somewhere but we're not going to direct that frustration at you.

It's those very frustrating moments when a healer just jumps, dances or emotes so it's pretty clear that they're fooling around and are actually not putting their current best foot forward [I wanna be Deadpool and MAXIMUM EFFORT]. Otherwise, I honestly don't notice a healer unless my HP flipflops worse than a mountain range that has outrageous peaks and minimums.

I honestly think it's more these discussions than anything actually happening in the dungeons that actually make me want to comment on these types of threads.

In these old arguments, I don't particularly think well of or think that they hold up well
a) I pay the sub I do what I want. I play how I play.
b) It is not my role. I signed up as a healer not a DD.
c) You didn't die right?
d) This isn't endgame raiding.

I mean I know commendations are a dime a dozen but I'd like to believe that my 3200+ commendations mean that I haven't done anything in a dungeon to make another (especially a healer) feel negative or badly, whether or not I wonder if they can or are willing to do more.

Kage · **08-16-2016, 10:26 PM**

(08-16-2016, 10:11 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: OR, I could not pop any one of my seven defensive cooldowns and just let my massive HP pool keep me up while the healer cure bombs me frantically. In both scenarios everybody still fulfilled their primary holy-trinity roles, but because of my failing to fulfill my secondary role helping my healer, my healer no longer had the option to help the dps.

Your healer also now hates you and is making a thread like this or is posting about it on tumblr or commenting about it somewhere.

... well I probably would >.>;

Lydia Lightfoot · **08-16-2016, 10:34 PM**

Just a quick comment -Â

Short of a very few specific pre-endgame dungeon bosses, yes, it's entirely possible for a tank to run an entire instance and never use a cooldown. I see them do it all the time and they don't die, usually because their healer is more competent than they are.Â That doesn't mean it's okay of them to do that any more than any other player on any other class or archetype should be forgiven for ignoring part of their skillset.

This isn't WoW, SWTOR, Rift, etc, there aren't trees of skill paths one can choose to develop a style in which to play a class. There's one way to play a class by design. Either a player is attempting (expecting perfection is silly, but effort is wonderful) to play their class correctly to its design and skill suite or they aren't.

Circle this to a similar concept I'm sure most of us are familiar with - can you think of a time during your years of education in which you were assigned a group project in one of your classes? Were you frustrated by someone in the group who wasn't putting as much effort into the project as the others? Did the others in the group have to work that much harder to compensate for the low-effort person? Same concept. No one player's time or presence is more valuable than the others, so no one player has the right to tell others in their group that they won't be attempting to contribute to their fullest (excepting, of course, a closed group of friends, in which case if a player says they're going to play low-effort and their friends are okay with it, then why not).

Virella · **08-16-2016, 10:41 PM**

I can sum up this whole discussion with: people are still thinking they are playing World of Casualcraft.

LiadansWhisper · **08-16-2016, 10:46 PM**

(08-16-2016, 10:11 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I'm assuming you define tank in two parts:
1] a party member who controls enmity.
2] a party member who can withstand heavy damage.

While only defining a Healer as:
1] a party member who heals.

Yep. Because withstanding heavy damage - i.e. surviving - is what makes a Tank an actual Tank. We call them a "Tank" because they survive damage like a tank. It's actually in the name.

Quote:Unfortunately, the reality is that a tank class can queue up for Expert, grab hate on everything, and never once pop a single cooldown for the entire dungeon. I've seen it, frequently! They've effectively "tanked" the dungeon, albeit incredibly inefficiently and painfully. But "did we wipe?" Nope. "Did we complete in 35 minutes instead of 30 minutes?" Yep. "Did the tank lose aggro and kill anybody?" Nope! Welp, according to this same very thread: Mission Complete! It is just an expert after all.

Which is shitty tank design, but nothing new. This is probably why I prefer a design that requires Tanks to, you know, be an actual Tank in dungeons, where a Healer cannot actually save you if you don't use your CDs properly.

And, btw, this is how Square Enix defines the Tanking role: These classes and jobs utilize various defensive and enmity-gaining abilities to keep the enemy's attention, preventing other party members from taking damage.

Quote:FFXIV defines a Healer as:
1] a party member who heals.
2] a party member who assists dps.

No, you define a Healer as this.

This is how Square Enix defines a Healer: These classes and jobs utilize various curative abilities to restore the HP of party members and remove status ailments.

This is what SE has on their website for New Players as what each role is supposed to do. Notice there is no mention of offensive/DPS abilities in either description, and notice that they very specifically mention defensive abilities in the Tanking role.

Quote:And I know that's not like anything most people have ever done apparently, but it's how the role plays in this game. So, you can do like tanks and do minimal effort, or you can do just a little bit to assist the other players in your party. It's not necessary for completion. It isn't. But unfortunately, the same can be said of defensive cooldowns.

Sure. But if a Healer fails to DPS in a dungeon, but still keeps everyone alive and heals, they're actually fulfilling what SE says their role is supposed to do. If a Tank refuses to use defensive CDs, he or she is not fulfilling what SE says their role is supposed to do.

Quote:Lemme use WAR as an example. I could go through my rotations, deal damage to build on my self healing, pop defensive cooldowns in time with my tanking rotation, and generally manage just fine on most expert bosses largely by myself self-healing and assisting with dps. OR, I could not pop any one of my seven defensive cooldowns and just let my massive HP pool keep me up while the healer cure bombs me frantically. In both scenarios everybody still fulfilled their primary holy-trinity roles, but because of my failing to fulfill my secondary role helping my healer, my healer no longer had the option to help the dps.

If you don't use your defensive CDs, you actually aren't fulfilling your role as defined by the people who make the game.

Aaron · **08-16-2016, 11:08 PM**

Can't we just compromise and say "I will start a dungeon at my best but as soon as I see another party member slacking off I will get that much lazier." ?

That's basically what I'm getting when thinking of how everyone can be happy here lol.

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-16-2016, 11:08 PM**

(08-16-2016, 10:41 PM)Virella Wrote: I can sum up this whole discussion with: people are still thinking they are playing World of Casualcraft.

+1

Countdown until we have to see more ugly panda screenshots. Â 10... 9... 8...

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If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time..

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