RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Seriphyn · **10-14-2016, 06:08 PM**

So, merging skills together based on roles, I hear?

Does this mean that, for example, Rampart and Shadowskin for PLD and DRK respectively will become one skill, except the animation for it is dependent on which job you are playing? They both offer 20% damage reduction. Just one thought.

V'aleera · **10-14-2016, 06:23 PM**

I have a feeling combo abilities are going to be consolidated in some fashion.

Valence · **10-15-2016, 03:45 AM**

I thought it was about crossclasses being splitted by roles and not by mandatory classes?

Zyrusticae · **10-15-2016, 11:16 AM**

I'm not expecting much.

Some ability pruning, some fixes to the cross-class system (now "roles", I suppose), maybe a new mechanic or two... but nothing that fundamentally changes the combat (or fixes the issues I have with it right now, for that matter).

I'm still sitting here wishing every game played like Blade & Soul. Heh. Wishful thinking, indeed. It's 'kay, I've made my peace with it already.

Valence · **10-15-2016, 12:36 PM**

Out of curiosity from someone that hasn't played BaS, why would you choose its combat over FFXIV classical combat system?

Martiallais · **10-15-2016, 12:40 PM**

I'm kind of hoping it does away with/consolidates some of the mandatory cross class skills (or at least the ones generally taken) that each role needs or makes use of. I'm thinking things like Provoke, Blood for Blood, Swiftcast, etc will get merged into the 'role pool' for lack of a better term.

Zyrusticae · **10-15-2016, 03:37 PM**

(10-15-2016, 12:36 PM)Valence Wrote: Out of curiosity from someone that hasn't played BaS, why would you choose its combat over FFXIV classical combat system?

It feels far more physical in a way that's hard to describe. It's more like... the cool things you see people doing in cutscenes (especially the Stormblood trailer recently released)? You get to do that.

The way the game puts an emphasis on manual blocking, dodging, and parrying, on high-speed movement, on heavy crowd-control effects, the incredible animation work... it all comes together to create a feeling of personal power that you just don't usually get in these types of games. It's the sort of thing usually reserved for dedicated character action games like Devil May Cry, Metal Gear Rising, Bayonetta et al. Granted, it's not as deep as those games, but that's also to its credit - the learning curve isn't anywhere nearly as steep, and it works better in the context of a game where you're supposed to be helping your party members.

In FFXIV, the combat has a strong tendency to feel disconnected, like I'm just going through the motions (the rotation), and that nothing I'm doing really has any connection with the physical world that my character is supposed to inhabit. Everything feels floaty, detached, with nothing but numbers to inform me of my performance.

In Blade & Soul I can knock down the boss and literally choke-hold them so my party members can beat them up without retaliation. I can send my enemies flying away, then close the distance instantly, move to their back just as fast, stun them, knock them into the air, and then follow up with an air combo. I can parry their attacks, causing them to be momentarily stunned, then retaliate with crushing force.

In FFXIV the only mechanics have to do with where you're standing, who you're targeting, how well you handle your class role (tank, DPS, heal), and *very occasionally* how you time your stuns (the only CC effect that is relevant in FFXIV). The lack of active participation in the combat has bored me to tears and is the primary reason I completely burned out on Heavensward so fast (after playing the game almost religiously in ARR, mind you).

Of course, I also recognize that I'm a particular kind of player who tends towards games with high skill caps (one of my most-played games is Starcraft, after all), and I do understand that the slower-paced, more simplistic style of combat works for a lot of folks. B&S (and PSO2, and Dragon's Dogma Online, etc., etc.) is just the type of game I gravitate more towards these days, and I'd just be pleased as Punch if FFXIV could join the roster.

Kellach Woods · **10-15-2016, 04:12 PM**

All I care is that PLD doesn't get shafted anymore if synced down.

Valence · **10-16-2016, 03:35 AM**

(10-15-2016, 03:37 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: It feels far more physical in a way that's hard to describe. It's more like... the cool things you see people doing in cutscenes (especially the Stormblood trailer recently released)? You get to do that.

Well I most of the time find the things we see in such cutscenes to be over the top and look totally silly/rubbish. But that's probably just me.

I agree though that ingame where it looks less realistic and where you have to contend with gameplay and stuff, it's another story.

(10-15-2016, 03:37 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: The way the game puts an emphasis on manual blocking, dodging, and parrying, on high-speed movement, on heavy crowd-control effects, the incredible animation work... it all comes together to create a feeling of personal power that you just don't usually get in these types of games. It's the sort of thing usually reserved for dedicated character action games like Devil May Cry, Metal Gear Rising, Bayonetta et al. Granted, it's not as deep as those games, but that's also to its credit - the learning curve isn't anywhere nearly as steep, and it works better in the context of a game where you're supposed to be helping your party members.

Well, it looks and sounds neat and all, for sure, but that's a totally different genre/game then. Personally, it doesn't appeal to me at all.

When I played most of the final fantasy titles, I didn't play them to feel like Star Ocean. Don't get me wrong, I find the things you find in such games mixed with hack and slash elements to be quite interesting and have their own charm, but that's not my thing. I play FF for its tactical depth, not its reactivity layer (and yet, there is one though, if you play a lot of DPS classes where it can still get rather frantic).

(10-15-2016, 03:37 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: In FFXIV, the combat has a strong tendency to feel disconnected, like I'm just going through the motions (the rotation), and that nothing I'm doing really has any connection with the physical world that my character is supposed to inhabit. Everything feels floaty, detached, with nothing but numbers to inform me of my performance.

Yeah, I'm always for more realism in combat, either in animations (as long as we don't get into a quagmire like it was in 1.0), or in gameplay. I also wish we could interact more with the environment, that some skills would be more useful (esp the ones that are crowd control, etc).

(10-15-2016, 03:37 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: In Blade & Soul I can knock down the boss and literally choke-hold them so my party members can beat them up without retaliation. I can send my enemies flying away, then close the distance instantly, move to their back just as fast, stun them, knock them into the air, and then follow up with an air combo. I can parry their attacks, causing them to be momentarily stunned, then retaliate with crushing force.

In FFXIV the only mechanics have to do with where you're standing, who you're targeting, how well you handle your class role (tank, DPS, heal), and *very occasionally* how you time your stuns (the only CC effect that is relevant in FFXIV). The lack of active participation in the combat has bored me to tears and is the primary reason I completely burned out on Heavensward so fast (after playing the game almost religiously in ARR, mind you). Â

I can agree that I would love to see more diversity in terms of crowd control skills, synergy, etc. But I disagree that in FF there is no team synergy. I'm always for more of it, sure, and I think they could do better with that, but there is actual synergy between classes and roles.

The active participation you speak of is actually there in most of the extreme and savage versions of the fights. Mechanics are always way heavier and lethal than they are in normal mode (a joke usually), and they actually force you to participate in the system you are presented with.

(10-15-2016, 03:37 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Of course, I also recognize that I'm a particular kind of player who tends towards games with high skill caps (one of my most-played games is Starcraft, after all), and I do understand that the slower-paced, more simplistic style of combat works for a lot of folks. B&S (and PSO2, and Dragon's Dogma Online, etc., etc.) is just the type of game I gravitate more towards these days, and I'd just be pleased as Punch if FFXIV could join the roster.

I find it a bit insulting to read that those games have a higher skill cap than others. They sure have a higher skill cap in terms of APM, yeah. They sure as hell also have a very low skill cap in terms of thinking and strategical planning. Now then, I'm not saying that the FF MMO have a high one either.

I find FF to be rather demanding when you start to get into high end, raiding, content. You know, when you are trying to dish out as much DPS as the good players, or whatever. Some jobs are just a memorized rotation sure, some are priority based and require quick thinking.

Caspar · **10-16-2016, 03:41 AM**

Challenge is relative. It is one of the most fundamental elements of understanding games. Attempting to compare the skill cap of playing a game that functions entirely differently and emphasizes different aspects of its gameplay to another is meaningless.

Zyrusticae · **10-16-2016, 11:41 AM**

I find even a priority system is too simplistic for me. All you have to do is keep an internal hierarchy of what needs to be up and make sure it's up. Any periods of downtime just mean I restart my rotation from the beginning. There's not much thinking involved.

My biggest issue with FFXIV's combat is that, even in the harder extreme/savage modes, it's generally about memorizing a script and playing out that script to the letter, and making sure that there are no weak links in your chain (i.e. no party members not playing their role optimally, or missing an important beat, or positioning incorrectly, etc., etc.). Granted, that's a generic MMORPG issue that not even B&S is immune to, but the lack of reactive skills in this game make it way too obvious that that's how things are supposed to go.

Feels like learning to play the Piano, really, except there are three or seven other players all trying to learn the same track and not mess it up for everyone else. It's... I mean, it's definitely skillful, but it's not the kind of thing that moves me, y'know? I like being able to improvise and, well, I also kind of like being able to carry my weaker party members to victory. I'm just egotistical that way.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention one thing B&S has going for it - free respecs all the way, along with skill variations that actually have meaningful differences. For example, one skill can be set up to be a damage shield that blocks 5 attacks in a row, or it can become a buff that only blocks 1 hit but boosts your damage output dramatically over its duration. Another skill can be set up to stun, or it can be set up to give you extra focus regen (their equivalent of MP/TP). Still another can be set up to put you into a different stance when you use it. So on and so forth.

It encourages strategic thinking and adapting to different combat scenarios, something you literally *never see* in FFXIV. Everyone playing a specific class plays exactly the same way. You're either playing your class optimally, or you're not. There are no other options. You just do what your class is designed to do and that's all there is to it. (I imagine that this is part of the reason some folks rail against the game's item system, because they want those possibilities to exist in the game and see items as the way to make that happen.) Now, I have no idea how they could introduce something like that to the game in its current state, but it's something to think about, at least.

I'm still not expecting much from Stormblood. Really, I'm just expecting more of the same. I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we get some major changes going forward.

Aden Dellebecque · **10-16-2016, 12:25 PM**

"It's Aliens" level theory

Revamp's sole purpose is to accommodate RDM's dip into multiple roles.

Valence · **10-16-2016, 12:26 PM**

It's rather easy to get any priority system in that game. It's another story to apply it well with time limits, GCDs, and hardpressed by stuff happening around.

I am not extremely interested in savage fights and raiding as well (maybe the ex versions though, to play with friends and whatnot), for the same reasons. I like to improvise and adapt to what's happening around, so paradoxically, that's what you find in pugs, so yes, I understand the feeling. That's also why I spent so much time playing a healer, because there is always something that can go in an unexpected direction and it makes it less... linear than other jobs.

I'm not going to lie and say that I don't agree that I would lean on even more tactical thinking and stuff, but what I appeciate in that game is the way jobs and classes are designed. They all have their distinct way to be played, and their own peculiar feel.

But hack and slash elements in my MMOs? Thanks but... I'll pass I guess.

Kellach Woods · **10-16-2016, 12:46 PM**

What I'm seeing, tank-wise is Tongue

rovoke/Bloodbath rolled into the cross-class pool (no longer learned per class), with one MDEF ability from DRK joining in.

For DPS, it'll be the damage increase/crit rate increase that everyone picks anyway, with some pruning (aka chances are we'll see one big damage buff, one big crit rate buff)

For healers, dunno.

I also think we'll be losing a LOT of similar-ish cooldowns.

Battle System revamp theorycrafting

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes