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S'imba · **10-19-2016, 10:04 AM**

(10-19-2016, 08:41 AM)Valence Wrote: Yes of course. It would be boring if all stories were about a farmer boy going on an adventure.

Some powerful characters either work as you say because they started from scratch (but that's where it becomes tricky in MMOs, everyone isn't necessarily your audience and watches from the beginning, especially when realistic problems enter the equation, like a 20y old character master their art or so). Or either when they are powerful de facto, but are not the center of the spotlight (aka, mentors of sorts, see Gandalf, Auron, etc).

But more than that, it mostly boils down to believability, or suspension of disbelief.

Yeah believiability is important the best black mage character I've ever seen played is an old jaded man in his fifties. Magic preserved secretly through his family by a codex passed down through his family that each person would add their own discoveries in. What made him a good black mage was that it's what he was raised on that made him who he was. His entire life was that he was a black mage. He was definitely more skilled than most black mages but compared to the rest of his family he came up short. He screwed up rituals a lot. Despite that he believes himself to be some sort of legendary black mage.

That's an example of a character that in my opinion wouldn't work if you took black magic away from him. Because iclly he believes that's all he is. Take it away and he feels his existence is pointless.

I guess what I meant to say is people who find ways to do these powerful jobs are more willing to risk more with their characters than those who are who would rather stick to the lore exactly. Not saying normal characters can't be interesting, but I've just found they risk more for story than people who get caught up on each little detail. Rather than creating a compelling story.Â

That isn't to say there's not a huge number of people who take power jobs just cause they believe that they need it to be interesting. Cause they get redundant too.

I'm just saying that on average people who are willing to risk more tens to create the more compelling stories. Cause they're not afraid to risk stepping out of the line.

Saravahn · **10-19-2016, 10:12 AM**

(10-19-2016, 10:04 AM)Simba Wrote: I'm just saying that on average people who are willing to risk more tens to create the more compelling stories. Cause they're not afraid to risk stepping out of the line.

Honestly not trying to be an ass with this question... but where do you get this "average"? Is there an actual documented study out there stating as much, or is this your personal experience?

Because, on average, in my personal experience, those players that have stayed within the boundaries of the lore have created far more compelling stories and interesting characters than those that stray off to, for instance, be the 11th dragoon.

Caspar · **10-19-2016, 10:32 AM**

The distinction is an illusion of preference. RP requires you to garner interest in your writing. While I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, you need some kind of hook, whether that's being older than the average character or being an Allagan construct or something off the wall like that. You need to write in the way you're confident can get and retain an audience. It is fallacious to assume that simply because a person chose a different approach to this they're a worse writer, period.

My stance is and always has been "players have a right to not suck." It's fine to be competent at something. You write at a level of competency that means something to the character's development. If that demands they're special that's fine. If it demands they're mundane that's fine. So long as they're neither meaninglessly strong or weak to feed your ego you really can't "fail" this part of RP.

A character who doesn't fight or heal can still be very competent or exceptional within the context of a setting, but I'll take it in good faith that they're meant to be a generic concept executed in a distinct enough way that it's fun to play with. I don't agree this has inherent value. The character doesn't exist in a vacuum. A character lashed directly to the lore can be boring or interesting and at any given time this can fluctuate to any point between extremes for each individual player on every individual day, depending on who else is there and what situation they're in.

But I don't believe the lore friendliness debate was ever about how to write an effective hook, but rather a shouting match to determine who has the right to claim their writing is somehow more genuine, more worthy. No amount of concession on either side will satisfy anyone because of it. Similar to coding people's RP behavior in chargen threads, it's about misleading the opposition into thinking they'll be shunned. The idea wasn't to help a person execute their concept but rather to tell them what you don't like, so you see less of what you don't like in the game proper. That behavior can still be unconscious too, so it's not assuming malign intent necessarily, even if the boot fits by coincidence once in a while.

Back on track though, it's pretty clear that a lot of people either enjoyed playing Dragoon or knew people who they respected playing the Job. It's not really their fault the retcon happened. People want to apply uneven standards about the lore to the Job, and I wondered, if the standards are too draconian to accommodate the people you want to play with, who do they benefit? If it's the satisfaction you get from adhering to the lore, is that worth more than others' rp? Maybe they ought to be relaxed, if all they do is deny you and others choice. I'm pretty much rambling at this point, but I think standards that aren't standard probably aren't necessary, really.

S'imba · **10-19-2016, 10:35 AM**

Average in what I've found personally along with a few other rpers. I can't speak for everyone but that's just what a small sample of people have said.

In the end though it comes down to what it takes to have fun personally. The server is diverse enough to find a group that fits you.

Gegenji · **10-19-2016, 10:39 AM**

(10-19-2016, 10:12 AM)Roderick Wrote: Because, on average, in my personal experience, those players that have stayed within the boundaries of the lore have created far more compelling stories and interesting characters than those that stray off to, for instance, be the 11th dragoon.

You will not speak ill of Xargdoon. He is a collection of Estinien's memories that were suppressed when he was possessed by Nidhogg, and created by the Ascians in an attempt to have a more controllable Azure Dragoon should Estinien break free.

(sorry not sorry)

I think the issue is the variance on people's acceptance of lore-bending. What the boundaries are for what someone "can" or "cannot" play, kept solely in the purview of "will I RP with them." There are some that cleave super-close to the lore, using the restriction and provided lore alone to thrive through creativity through limitations. Others delve more into the "what if" gray areas and bring forth fanciful ideas - swerving away from the lore to varying degrees. There is fun to be had all across the spectrum, especially on a server as populous as Balmung, depending on your own preferences and comfort.

And there's equal chances that any of them can be played poorly, just as even the most overpowered or bog-standard character concept can be interesting in the right hands. It's just the more fanciful ones are more quickly... written off... and (perhaps rightfully at times) have a bad stigma to them. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes not. I just don't think it's enough reason to dismiss wanting to play more fanciful characters out of hand. After all, this is a fantasy MMO, right? Maybe some folks just want to play something fantastical now and then.

ExAtomos · **10-19-2016, 10:56 AM**

(10-19-2016, 08:41 AM)Valence Wrote: Yes of course. It would be boring if all stories were about a farmer boy going on an adventure.

Some powerful characters either work as you say because they started from scratch (but that's where it becomes tricky in MMOs, everyone isn't necessarily your audience and watches from the beginning, especially when realistic problems enter the equation, like a 20y old character master their art or so). Or either when they are powerful de facto, but are not the center of the spotlight (aka, mentors of sorts, see Gandalf, Auron, etc).

But more than that, it mostly boils down to believability, or suspension of disbelief.

Remember too though... this IS a Final Fantasy game. Most of the playable characters ARE in fact about that young. (We'll take Cecil there as a good example, only 20 and yet such a skilled DRK that he was made captain of the Red Wings. And while that post doesn't mention Kain, it is likely that he, a full fledged DRG, is about the same age.) So, do we apply Real World limitations to our game or keep the Fantasy going?

Full disclosure - I am personally no where near 20. lol. I know full well how annoying it is to play with folks who have characters with god-like abilities and pull a playground "Nuh Uh, you can't beat me!" whenever they are threatened by anything. But there is a middle ground between this and 'so average that they can't actually do anything that exists in the XIV world/storyline but doesn't exist in Real Life'.

I am still holding to my idea that XIV's story and lore are written as though this was a single player game (mentioned a few pages back). In order to account for the thousands that are roleplaying in this world, we're gonna have to do some handwaving here and there. Try to work with what we're given, sure, but ultimately it is still a fantasy game.

Saravahn · **10-19-2016, 11:51 AM**

(10-19-2016, 10:39 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(10-19-2016, 10:12 AM)Roderick Wrote: Because, on average, in my personal experience, those players that have stayed within the boundaries of the lore have created far more compelling stories and interesting characters than those that stray off to, for instance, be the 11th dragoon.
You will not speak ill of Xargdoon. He is a collection of Estinien's memories that were suppressed when he was possessed by Nidhogg, and created by the Ascians in an attempt to have a more controllable Azure Dragoon should Estinien break free.

(sorry not sorry)

I think the issue is the variance on people's acceptance of lore-bending. What the boundaries are for what someone "can" or "cannot" play, kept solely in the purview of "will I RP with them." There are some that cleave super-close to the lore, using the restriction and provided lore alone to thrive through creativity through limitations. Others delve more into the "what if" gray areas and bring forth fanciful ideas - swerving away from the lore to varying degrees. There is fun to be had all across the spectrum, especially on a server as populous as Balmung, depending on your own preferences and comfort.

And there's equal chances that any of them can be played poorly, just as even the most overpowered or bog-standard character concept can be interesting in the right hands. It's just the more fanciful ones are more quickly... written off... and (perhaps rightfully at times) have a bad stigma to them. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes not. I just don't think it's enough reason to dismiss wanting to play more fanciful characters out of hand. After all, this is a fantasy MMO, right? Maybe some folks just want to play something fantastical now and then.

I'm not disagreeing. Different tastes, different styles. Neither side of the spectrum is wrong, as I stated in my first post in this thread.

My point with the average bit was to state that you can't take personal experences, in this regard, and turn around to claim it as whole truth fact. I was simply requesting clarification on his part, ir.. the off chance that some such study actually does exist out there.

His personal experience is that he found characters that stretch the lore in some fashion are more compelling. My personal experience was the opposite. Neither is the whole truth fact for the entire server because, as you and now I have stated, different tastes.

The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

And as to Xargdoon, full credit goes to the sister thread with regard to the 11th dragoon. Smile

Gegenji · **10-19-2016, 11:54 AM**

(10-19-2016, 11:51 AM)Roderick Wrote: And as to Xargdoon, full credit goes to the sister thread with regard to the 11th dragoon.

I'm just glad I got to post the glory of Xargdoon here too. Heart

ExAtomos · **10-19-2016, 12:16 PM**

(10-19-2016, 11:51 AM)Roderick Wrote: The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

Valence · **10-19-2016, 12:25 PM**

(10-19-2016, 10:56 AM)ExAtomos Wrote: Remember too though... this IS a Final Fantasy game. Most of the playable characters ARE in fact about that young. (We'll take Cecil there as a good example, only 20 and yet such a skilled DRK that he was made captain of the Red Wings. And while that post doesn't mention Kain, it is likely that he, a full fledged DRG, is about the same age.) So, do we apply Real World limitations to our game or keep the Fantasy going?

Full disclosure - I am personally no where near 20. lol. I know full well how annoying it is to play with folks who have characters with god-like abilities and pull a playground "Nuh Uh, you can't beat me!" whenever they are threatened by anything. But there is a middle ground between this and 'so average that they can't actually do anything that exists in the XIV world/storyline but doesn't exist in Real Life'.

I am still holding to my idea that XIV's story and lore are written as though this was a single player game (mentioned a few pages back). In order to account for the thousands that are roleplaying in this world, we're gonna have to do some handwaving here and there. Try to work with what we're given, sure, but ultimately it is still a fantasy game.

You are talking about the heroes of the FF stories. Aka, the WoL in XIV.

I'm mostly referring to the people depicted by the lore. All the other people. The inhabitants of that world.

Saravahn · **10-19-2016, 12:39 PM**

(10-19-2016, 12:16 PM)ExAtomos Wrote:
(10-19-2016, 11:51 AM)Roderick Wrote: The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

I, personally, disagree. I would rather be told flat out that whatever it is I'm choosing to do will have some sort of consequence. Of course, again, this is personal opinion.

However, destructive or not, it is the truth. As you said yourself, several people in this thread alone have commented whether they would or would not interact with particular concepts.

I see it more as a heads up, particularly to those that feel entitled. Namely, those that think that they deserve to receive RP no matter what their character concept might be. I daresay there are a handful of said people in this very thread.

There was a post with a picture on my Facebook the other day that I feel fits this situation. The picture read, "We live in a generation of emotionally weak people. Everything has to be watered down because it is offensive, even the truth."

It's not a matter of being destructive. It is a matter of giving fair warning to those that may otherwise feel entitled. A fair warning of the truth.

Leih · **10-19-2016, 12:51 PM**

There are a million ways to work the 'dragoon' angle. From being retired, having left, being trained by a retired dragon, etc. I personally believe those are acceptable ideas. If others do not, that's fair.Â

Now, disagreement is not a reason to be rude or bash on someone's RP. The point of RP is having fun and work together in different stories involving our characters with other people's characters. If the label of 'Special Snowflake' is now attached to people who RP dragoons, then that's alienating people over something considerably trivial and that can be worked around.Â

If someone claims to be say... the Azure Dragoon, then yeah, I will raise my brow too and won't be too thrilled to interact with that person. But if someone says something like: "I was a dragoon, but retired some years ago." or "I left the order after the Dragonsong War ended." I think that's fine.

I think its fine for former dragoons to teach a new generation and if they want pass their soulstones to them. I think Drachen armors can also be passed down to the next generation. Those are objects. Skills can be taught.Â

The most important thing, lore/IC aside, is to be respectful. If you don't like someone's RP, that's fine. That's not an excuse to bash them for their choices, their character or how they RP. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and a right to express it politely. If a person doesn't want to interact with Dragoon players because they want to adhere to the Lorebook like its the holiest book in the Realm, go for it. Just remain polite and don't take the fun of others, please.

Caspar · **10-19-2016, 01:13 PM**

(10-19-2016, 12:39 PM)Roderick Wrote:
(10-19-2016, 12:16 PM)ExAtomos Wrote:
(10-19-2016, 11:51 AM)Roderick Wrote: The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

I, personally, disagree. I would rather be told flat out that whatever it is I'm choosing to do will have some sort of consequence. Of course, again, this is personal opinion.

However, destructive or not, it is the truth. As you said yourself, several people in this thread alone have commented whether they would or would not interact with particular concepts.

I see it more as a heads up, particularly to those that feel entitled. Namely, those that think that they deserve to receive RP no matter what their character concept might be. I daresay there are a handful of said people in this very thread.

There was a post with a picture on my Facebook the other day that I feel fits this situation. The picture read, "We live in a generation of emotionally weak people. Everything had to be watered down because it is offensive, even the truth."

It's not a matter of being destructive. It is a matter of giving fair warning to those that may otherwise feel entitled. A fair warning of the truth.

The RPC is not Balmung, or any other server with RPers. It may come as a shock to know that players rejected by this community still find a lot of RP. The idea that "if you play x, you'll be shunned" is certainly true. Except in the case of many members here. Except when dealing with non RPC players. Except when you're RPing a Dragoon and the retcon flattens them unexpectedly. For an ironclad truth it can't really have a capital T and it certainly has a lot of holes, which begs the question of what purpose it serves. It's certainly not for the sake of the new RPer, because those players described wouldn't have associated with them anyway. Privare conversation often enough reflects a degree of contempt behind the advice. Even when it doesn't it's still not a useful chargen tool. It's not for the sake of the community, nebulous as that idea is. Who does this sobering "dose of reality" serve then?

I find it interesting too that the people who complain about sensitivity are the first to cry foul when called out on the real purpose behind their helpful advice. Some are so sensitive about their "brutal honesty" they've sworn off this forum entirely.

Regarding the age of characters, if it's good enough for most fiction it's good enough for RP. People like stories about the young and talented. Being older is cool too and has novelty. I certainly appreciate it even when I don't do it.

Really my only stance that matters is focused around expanding the world rather than shrinking it. Shrinking the world unnecessarily through encouraging a literalist interpretation of the lore; does it actually serve anyone? Just like how the change to the number of Dragoons is seen as unreasonable and unprecedented even with Black Mage suffering similarly before. How much is the ooc distinctiveness of a concept actually worth when you play with a tiny fraction of the server at once? It's unlikely there will be as many Knights Dragoon from now on, and yet is it really fair to fault them for simply being late to the party?

I think maybe this could use another topic for better discussion, though.

Zhavi · **10-19-2016, 01:43 PM**

(10-19-2016, 12:16 PM)ExAtomos Wrote:
(10-19-2016, 11:51 AM)Roderick Wrote: The problem that a lot of posters in this thread seem to be glancing over is that, as far as I've seen, no one has said "you can't do this". All I've seen is people with different tastes saying "you play what you want, you have every right", a few suggestions for following or bending the lore. Then a fair handful of people come in seemingly taking that as an attack..policing and witch hunts. As said in my first post, I don't see policing or witch hunts happening, nor do I expect them to start with this newfound information.

I don't think anyone will just state "You can't do that." We all know better than to say that. Problem is what actually happens on this site and has shown up at least a few times in this thread... folks will easily say "Oh sure, you can do that, but don't expect me (and sometimes 'anyone') to play with you if you do." Which is, in my opinion, actually more destructive to people's confidence.

Sometimes I feel like common sense gets dropped in rp. No matter that it's a pretend world, you're still dealing with people.

I read a lot of fantasy books. Do I expect everyone to want to talk about them with me? No.

I watch a lot of Asian romcoms. Do I expect everyone to want to watch them with me? No.

I like my food seasoned in certain ways. Do I expect everyone to enjoy eating that food that I so painstakingly made? No.

I enjoy going to the local teahouse more than any other place. Do I expect everyone to want to go with me? No.

It's perfectly fine to enjoy what you enjoy. But no matter what you do there will be people who will not want to do it with you. They deserve to have fun, just like you. And it's good to remind people of that before they have a hard time finding people to play with -- encouragement and forewarning can go a long way for longevity.

With any social activity, you have to work to find your place. You're never (or, at least, very, very rarely) going to walk in somewhere and have oodles of people clamoring for your time and attention right off the bat. It takes time to build connections, especially if you have an off the wall idea you'd need to pitch right to people to avoid alienating them. And really, knowing upfront that this or that idea might face resistance is, to me, far more helpful than a 'yeah, go for it!' that implies everyone and anyone would be happy to work with it.

Social situations can be alienating and cruel. RP can be especially so, considering that creative ideas tend to ... leave people vulnerable. I'd much rather arm with knowledge than give them no warning at all.

And that goes for dragoons or any other thing that people have passionate contentions or strong feelings about.

Saravahn · **10-19-2016, 02:05 PM**

I... honestly feel like I already answered those questions you asked, Caspar, but I will try to go point by point through your post in an attempt to clarify. This is not meant as offense or disrespect, just clarification for points I think you may have missed or misread.

Quote:The RPC is not Balmung, or any other server with RPers.

I don't feel I made a claim saying that it was.. I am well aware that those that frequent the RPC either as simply a lurker or even a poster are but a small fraction of the total Balmung (and other servers) player population.

Quote:It may come as a shock to know that players rejected by this community still find a lot of RP.Â

It honestly doesn't. I am well aware of players that don't even know of this site's existence that still find a lot of RP.Â

Quote:The idea that "if you play x, you'll be shunned" is certainly true. Except in the case of many members here. Except when dealing with non RPC players. Except when you're RPing a Dragoon and the retcon flattens them unexpectedly.

I'm personally not sure how those are considered exceptions when they still would have the same circumstances in each case.

The player in question decides to bend/break the lore in some fashion. Other players that are not comfortable with bending/breaking will likely avoid interacting with said player. Their membership to this site or lack thereof doesn't come into play, there.

Those that bend/break the lore run the "risk" of running off players that enjoying staying within the lore's boundaries. And yes, the roles can be switched as has been evident in this thread and other threads on this site.Â

Quote:For an ironclad truth it can't really have a capital T and it certainly has a lot of holes, which begs the question of what purpose it serves. It's certainly not for the sake of the new RPer, because those players described wouldn't have associated with them anyway.

"I see it more as a heads up, particularly to those that feel entitled. Namely, those that think that they deserve to receive RP no matter what their character concept might be. I daresay there are a handful of said people in this very thread."

It serves as a warning to those that may otherwise feel entitled, as I stated.

Quote:Privare conversation often enough reflects a degree of contempt behind the advice. Even when it doesn't it's still not a useful chargen tool. It's not for the sake of the community, nebulous as that idea is.

Forgive me, but I don't get your point here. People speaking in private about others not in their circle? This is... new... bad...?Â

Quote:Who does this sobering "dose of reality" serve then?Â

Again, as mentioned above, those that would otherwise feel entitled.
Â

Quote:I find it interesting too that the people who complain about sensitivity are the first to cry foul when called out on the real purpose behind their helpful advice. Some are so sensitive about their "brutal honesty" they've sworn off this forum entirely.Â

I can't speak to this as I don't necessarily have evidence one way or another.

I do, however, get the feeling that this was meant as a jab at myself which, honestly, I don't recall crying foul. I simply explained and clarified... and even stated that I don't expect people to agree with me.

Quote:Really my only stance that matters is focused around expanding the world rather than shrinking it. Shrinking the world unnecessarily through encouraging a literalist interpretation of the lore; does it actually serve anyone?

I honestly don't feel like adhering to the lore "shrinks" the world in any way, but if that is the way you wish to see it, so be it.Â

As to who it serves? Those who enjoy roleplaying within the boundaries of the lore. Those that like keeping themselves within the guidelines and rules of another person's narrative.

Quote:Just like how the change to the number of Dragoons is seen as unreasonable and unprecedented even with Black Mage suffering similarly before. How much is the ooc distinctiveness of a concept actually worth when you play with a tiny fraction of the server at once?

It is sudden and unreasonable, but it's not our world... it's SE's.Â

As to its worth? Are you wanting a monetary value?Â

I would argue that those that like to stick within the lore find it quite worthwhile to stick to the lore.Â

Quote:It's unlikely there will be as many Knights Dragoon from now on, and yet is it really fair to fault them for simply being late to the party?

Depending upon the player's stance on the lore, then yes... it is fair to fault them. If they wish to stick to the lore and the lore has been presented as thus.... then... yeah, it's their own fault for turning their nose up at the lore that they're trying to follow.

If they don't care about the lore, then how are you going to fault them for not following it? If they don't care... then they don't care. They can have their fun among their circle of friends that don't care.

Again... this leads to that whole policing/witch hunt thing that seems to be on everyone's mind. No one is going to get on and hunt people down for not following the lore. But if you claim to follow the lore, are given evidence from the people that write the lore, then turn around and say ,"nah, ignoring that." ... I don't know what else you should expect other than being told, "Hey... you're doing it wrong."

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[Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead

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