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Seriphyn · **02-23-2017, 08:08 PM**

(02-23-2017, 07:59 PM)L Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:55 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:51 PM)L Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.

What about the entirety of Miqo'te lore? Ishgardian culture? The Lalafell in the WVR questline who just about backhands the girl being forced to marry him? Sexism isn't non-existent in Eorzea just because the military judges purely on merit.

Miqo'te lore I've always trumpeted on OOC about its dodgy social structure (to which people have defended it OOC by saying it's not really sexist)...but it's not even brought up as an issue in the game world. At least, as far as I've consumed of the game, no character has gone 'This patriarchal tribal nonsense is nonsense'. SE are okay with dropping in rape but not making Seeker of the Sun a contentious political issue in-universe.

Because it's their culture, and the vast majority seem to be totally fine with it. That doesn't mean it isn't sexist, though. In Seeker of the Sun tribes, women are still respected and fill the same duties as men, but it's still a patriarchal society at its heart. Keepers of the Moon don't even give their men real names, and kick them out of the house as soon as they're old enough to not die. That's sexist no matter how you look at it. But again, they seem to be fine with it since Miqo'te men seem to have a kind of inherent wanderlust.

We've also seen a Miqo'te who wasn't happy with it. The Coeurlking. And it's totally possible we'll meet more someday.

Had to underline because I had no idea how to quote just that.

Right, so I can't speak to the Coeurlking because I only have as much lore from my slice of gameplay, but my issue is that YOU'VE said it's sexist, from an OOC standpoint. It's not tackled seriously IC, if at all. In respect of my original argument, then, rape is thrown in to the game without any other exploration of gender topics.

It's used as a tool to sharpen da edge and make the game seem more 'real', when they have actual material (such as Seeker culture as you've pointed out) to use instead, without resorting to cheap tactics.

Domri Blackblade · **02-23-2017, 08:11 PM**

Remember kids, any remotely dark theme is super edgy and all this game has room for is cotton candy and midgets with the voices of Alan Rickman.

What the fuck is your point? You don't like the direction of the story? Is that really all this post is?

Seriphyn · **02-23-2017, 08:12 PM**

(02-23-2017, 08:11 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: Remember kids, any remotely dark theme is super edgy and all this game has room for is cotton candy and midgets with the voices of Alan Rickman.

What the fuck is your point? You don't like the direction of the story? Is that really all this post is?

If you can't post and argue without using emotive cusses or changing your signature to a GIF the mods kept removing, I suggest you don't post or argue at all.

L'ohba Tia · **02-23-2017, 08:12 PM**

(02-23-2017, 08:08 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:59 PM)L Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:55 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:51 PM)L Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.

What about the entirety of Miqo'te lore? Ishgardian culture? The Lalafell in the WVR questline who just about backhands the girl being forced to marry him? Sexism isn't non-existent in Eorzea just because the military judges purely on merit.

Miqo'te lore I've always trumpeted on OOC about its dodgy social structure (to which people have defended it OOC by saying it's not really sexist)...but it's not even brought up as an issue in the game world. At least, as far as I've consumed of the game, no character has gone 'This patriarchal tribal nonsense is nonsense'. SE are okay with dropping in rape but not making Seeker of the Sun a contentious political issue in-universe.

Because it's their culture, and the vast majority seem to be totally fine with it. That doesn't mean it isn't sexist, though. In Seeker of the Sun tribes, women are still respected and fill the same duties as men, but it's still a patriarchal society at its heart. Keepers of the Moon don't even give their men real names, and kick them out of the house as soon as they're old enough to not die. That's sexist no matter how you look at it. But again, they seem to be fine with it since Miqo'te men seem to have a kind of inherent wanderlust.

We've also seen a Miqo'te who wasn't happy with it. The Coeurlking. And it's totally possible we'll meet more someday.

Had to underline because I had no idea how to quote just that.

Right, so I can't speak to the Coeurlking because I only have as much lore from my slice of gameplay, but my issue is that YOU'VE said it's sexist, from an OOC standpoint. It's not tackled seriously IC, if at all. In respect of my original argument, then, rape is thrown in to the game without any other exploration of gender topics.

It's used as a tool to sharpen da edge and make the game seem more 'real', when they have actual material (such as Seeker culture as you've pointed out) to use instead, without resorting to cheap tactics.

It's not as if rape is constantly thrown in your face to make everything seem edgier. It's mentioned here and there as a realistic part of a world that isn't perfect. There's plenty of time to talk about sexism within the world, but that's not what rape is about. Rape happens. Especially in war zones and among pirates.

Domri Blackblade · **02-23-2017, 08:13 PM**

No, I think I will. How about you answer if that's really the point of this thread? For you, in fact, to be the edgy one.

***Meishali*** · **02-23-2017, 08:13 PM**

(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea

I could go on and on, with flavor NPC text. From miqo'te dancers to poor people within refugee camps, passing by the sex workers hoarded within Sastasha.

It doesn't fall flat. It's present, it's always been here -- doesn't mean it's right, doesn't mean it's good, and doesn't mean I, personally, want it. You're making it sound like XIV is trying to be particularly progressive and that ALL OF A SUDDEN, RAPE! Be real on this one.
Let's be honest, on main aspects, it's not, and for plenty of reasons. Sure, men can have skimpy armor too. But some pieces of clothing are still gendered. Most female characters are still meant as eyecandy, and some, dangerously young looking eyecandy. And I genuinely disliked it.Â

Rape and sexual harassment is a recurring, obnoxious topic in XIV as it in most videogames, even if always put down in subtext. I don't want it to become the norm, and I'm genuinely upset about it.Â

Sexism is still pretty much present in Eorzea, but to me, it is more coming from the fact that (in this specific world) women are still easily sexualized. Them being capable of handling position of power can happen separately from that. It's not 'alien', it's just different, and yes, it still sucks.

"Rape is facilitated by men possessing near-exclusive control of the means to apply physical violence."

But not everyone is a hero, not everyone wields a sword in Eorzea. Just like not everyone is a military war machine IRL.Â Men or women. (Edit: also it's mostly a matter of education. Rape can occur even if the offender isn't big, or tall, or strong. Being taught not to rape is a pretty basic thing, yeah? Yeah.)

Instead of pretending to take great offence, as suggested, send letters to Square Enix or address this issue on the main forum. They're pretty close to their community and have been known to adjust certain things when they're deemed inappropriate, unfair, and unbalanced.

Edit: And no, Keeper culture revering women and the kickass lesbians pirates don't make up for it.

Arrelaine · **02-23-2017, 08:14 PM**

Best way to demoralize your enemy? Take their women, separate them, and make the men watch as you treat them like cattle. It makes the other side feel powerless, and it wouldn't surprise me if the female commanders encouraged it; it certainly doesn't mean they wouldn't participate to help the cause along, either. Women are generally easier to control compared to their male counterparts. Even by Eorzean standards, women are smaller, including Roes, though I suspect they probably put the female Roes to work as well, given their size.

Rape demoralizes both genders, even if they only take the women. Female soldiers feel demoralized and humiliated, just the same as the female civilians, and the men are helpless. It's not about sexism, or gender equality, it's about control and keeping the enemy down. It also encourages young male soldiers, as a bonus for signing up.

Edited to add: There's one more point, there's only one of the two genders capable of having babies. The conquering army doesn't care if they're bastard children, they want more canon fodder.

Warren Castille · **02-23-2017, 08:17 PM**

(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 07:39 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Yeah, it's totally unrealistic. I mean, we all know once we started letting women into the US military all sexism stopped, as did sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination. Ditto for police, fire stations, education, politics, sports, and every other career that features both men and women in leadership positions.

It's so weird to see that sexism isn't solved in a fantasy world, when we managed it in reality!

That is not my argument. My argument is that we cannot possibly know how gender dynamics exist in Eorzea because their level of egalitarianism between the sexes is so far out and alien to our own world. Therefore, making assumptions that rape functions the same way as we know it is fallacious.

Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.

I don't see sexism in my day to day in real life. Is it okay to use this as logic to declare that my city features an alien form of equality compared to yours, therefor it doesn't exist? I mean, I don't know how they treat woman in other countries, so rape definitely isn't the same in other parts of the world.

I know this is a Kale-brand-Kale-thread but c'mon, your argument seems to be "How come no one's smashing the miqo'te patriarchy in the lore?"

Arrelaine · **02-23-2017, 08:23 PM**

"What's best in life?" "To crush your enemies - See them driven before you, and to hear their lamentation of their women."

Furthermore, just because women -are- equal doesn't mean the majority of soldiers are going to -be- women. The majority are still going to be men. Hell, if I were a warmongering tyrant bent on taking over the world, I'd do order them taken too, and I'm a woman.

...good thing I'm not a warmongering tyrant.

ExAtomos · **02-23-2017, 08:34 PM**

War is a prevalent theme in the game. Violence abounds and is either shown outright or hinted at continuously. Rape is a weapon used in war. Is all of it shocking? Yeah, and it better be. A quote I'm sure you've seen before is "rape is not about sex, it is about violence."

Ellmida · **02-23-2017, 08:36 PM**

This is...actually a really interesting topic and honestly though I will try to give my own bumbling explanation...it's not going to come out as great as I want it to.

Just because a culture is based on a meritocracy rather than a Patriarchal or Matriarchal society does not mean sex based crimes do not exist and will never exist. While sexismÂ and gender inequality can be argued as a reasoning behind the high rate of these crimes against women it is by no means the sole cause of rape. You have women rapists, andÂ while the crimes of this natures are vastly under-reported because of the social stigma, it still exists. Rape is a crime that involves control of one person over another, that sort of thing doesn't go away simply because men and women serve equally together and it is actually a very common story when you get into invading armies and occupation.

Uh...well I think I've reached my depth at this point, there's really not much I can get into without digging into vast amounts of historical information, psychological discussions and sociology but there you go.

ZOMGodzilla · **02-23-2017, 08:43 PM**

Female dancers in scantily clad clothing.
Courtesans.
Wealthy elite with female escorts.
Men holding the reigns in Ishgardian marriage setups.
A Heavens' Ward comprised solely of men.

There's plenty of hints to the presence of imbalanced sexual equality in FFXIV. Just because a woman in the game can gain a high position in the military, or hit as hard as a man doesn't mean they're treated equally in all aspects of life.Â

The 50:50 only means that military is an aspect of life Eorzeans (and abroad) naturally accept as having little need for sexist policy. After all, a woman can fight just as well as a man in Eorzea (as opposed to the natural physiological differences in real life that partially aided in the separation of gender spheres throughout human history), so there's no point historically for men to bar women from participating. It doesn't mean however that the status quo is for women to be considered equal in all aspects.

EDIT: I must also say it's quite disturbing that rape as an event in fiction has been turned into some sort of anti-edge fuel source. As if the presence of rape in a story suddenly makes it this brooding (and consequently less valued as a story) tale meant solely to be edgy. How exactly is rape as a subject not "employed easily"? What constitutes proper portrayal of rape? Seriously?

Nako Vesh · **02-23-2017, 09:09 PM**

(02-23-2017, 08:43 PM)ZOMGodzilla Wrote: EDIT: I must also say it's quite disturbing that rape as an event in fiction has been turned into some sort of anti-edge fuel source. As if the presence of rape in a story suddenly makes it this brooding (and consequently less valued as a story) tale meant solely to be edgy. How exactly is rape as a subject not "employed easily"? What constitutes proper portrayal of rape? Seriously?

Well, for one, I think it was handled "correctly" in Jessica Jones. In the case of that show it wasn't so much "used" but was an implied oppressive presence that colored the entire season of the show (which mirrors how it affects victims IRL). We never see the act, but still without many words, we come to know it happened. When it is finally spelled out, it's the victim, Jessica, who calls it out to the perpetrator as rape.Â

Unfortunately, it is handled clumsily over, and over, and over again. As are a number of tired tropes directed at mostly female characters in fiction. Fridging comes to mind, and FFXIV is absolutely guilty of that one. People simply get tired of these.Â

Is rape handled clumsily in FFXIV? I don't know. I want to say yes in some cases, but it's hard for me to tell because I'm somewhat close to the subject so any mention of it is glaring to me. I do think it's an oversight on their part that the rape of only women seems to come up.

As an aside, I think OP is under the mistaken impression that gender and sexual attraction are inexorably tied to the act of rape. They're not. Rape is essentially about two things: Violence and power. That's it.

Flynn Rosenberg · **02-23-2017, 09:15 PM**

*pops in*

I'm not sure if this discussion is about how it's presented in the game itself or by RPers, but...

There's a certain theme FFXIV is following, and I think it's handling it fine, depending on how you view it. I generally don't always assume rape if something bad is happening to a character. Maybe in games like Witcher 3, but not in any FF title I've seen.

With that said, I've been in RP sessions that just go full on, "they've been taken captive, they're being raped and gagged and guts everywhere" and it's like... DUDE! Woah, way to jump right over the PG-13 we're getting.

Come on.

*pops out*

ZOMGodzilla · **02-23-2017, 09:21 PM**

(02-23-2017, 09:09 PM)Nako Vesh Wrote:
(02-23-2017, 08:43 PM)ZOMGodzilla Wrote: EDIT: I must also say it's quite disturbing that rape as an event in fiction has been turned into some sort of anti-edge fuel source. As if the presence of rape in a story suddenly makes it this brooding (and consequently less valued as a story) tale meant solely to be edgy. How exactly is rape as a subject not "employed easily"? What constitutes proper portrayal of rape? Seriously?

Well, for one, I think it was handled "correctly" in Jessica Jones. In the case of that show it wasn't so much "used" but was an implied oppressive presence that colored the entire season of the show (which mirrors how it affects victims IRL). We never see the act, but still without many words, we come to know it happened. When it is finally spelled out, it's the victim, Jessica, who calls it out to the perpetrator as rape.Â

Unfortunately, it is handled clumsily over, and over, and over again. As are a number of tired tropes directed at mostly female characters in fiction. Fridging comes to mind, and FFXIV is absolutely guilty of that one. People simply get tired of these.Â

Is rape handled clumsily in FFXIV? I don't know. I want to say yes in some cases, but it's hard for me to tell because I'm somewhat close to the subject so any mention of it is glaring to me. I do think it's an oversight on their part that the rape of only women seems to come up.

As an aside, I think OP is under the mistaken impression that gender and sexual attraction are inexorably tied to the act of rape. They're not. Rape is essentially about two things: Violence and power. That's it.

True enough. I had realized after I posted that there certainly is a proper way to handle rape themes in fiction. I see clearly where my statement could make it seem like i'm not aware of that.

I think what I meant to say, more specifically, was that it seemed weird to consider the mention of rape as 'employed easily', and that it was necessarily a bad thing. Is rape as a subject supposed to be explored only in a deeper manner, as a subject that prevails the fiction? Essentially, I don't see why rape can't/shouldn't be something brought up on occasion as existing in the universe as a simpler conversation piece, rather than something deeper.

[Discussion] Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes