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Gar · **08-03-2013, 02:08 AM**

So I've come to a crossroads. When I first decided to play FFXIV, I instinctively knew I was going to play Paladin. I always tank, and that was the tank back in FFXI that I played. But the more I read about Warrior, the more I start to debate if I want to be the standard sword and board tank.

I've read a few different sites debating the differences between the two tanking classes, but I want to know what you guys think. Honestly, one of my biggest worries is that Paladin is going to shine as the main endgame tank, and Warrior put into offtank position for raids or something.

In all reality I'll probably end up leveling both and seeing the differences for myself, but I want to hear some opinions to decide what I want to focus on first, and possibly what job my character is going to be ICly. So even if you want to shout out RP preferences or whatever, please do. My brain is so on the fence that its making me go cross eyed.

FreelanceWizard · **08-03-2013, 03:11 AM**

Well, I can't comment on their endgame potential (Sounsyy -- I choose you!), but narratively, their base classes (MRD and GLA) have different points of view on battle. Marauder class quests focus on unleashing fury, proving your strength, and delivering righteous vengeance. The Gladiator class quests focus more on playing to a crowd, seeking honor and glory, and the like.

So, from an RP perspective, the Marauder (which becomes the Warrior) would seem to attract a more offensive, "break stuff" character, while the Gladiator (which becomes the Paladin) would attract a more defensive, "strength and honor" character.

In terms of low-level game play, for what it's worth, MRD holds threat through high damage and +Enmity combos, and survives through more HP. They can really only use TP-based cross-class skills due to a small MP pool. GLD holds threat through Flash and +Enmity skills, and survives through higher evasion (shield block). They can use both TP and MP cross-class skills effectively.

Desmond Aryll · **08-03-2013, 03:22 AM**

Another thing that muddies the water on the subject is that both classes most popular recommendations on point allocation is the same.Â :/

I know it's subjective but the dumping all points into Str or a combination of Str/Vit is kind of disappointing. I want to believe that as time and different builds go on, we will see more differences between how the two should develop. That would shed some light on the inherent differences.

Fiona · **08-03-2013, 03:57 AM**

Just a quick question but why is it bad to be an offtank? I mostly played healing classes so I've yet to learn the in and outs of being a tank person!

I don't know anything about Warrior or Paladins since I've only played the beta as Marauder and Gladiator. I did get to level 35 with both classes though. Up to those levels I felt gladiator did far less damage than marauders. Playing gladiator was much easier tanking since conjurer's didn't need to heal me as much. I found taking care of enmity much easier as marauder though. I think the biggest problem I had as Marauder was running low on TP and slowing my party down a little bit. I got better at managing it but I lose a lot of TP when I need to get enmity back from someone or in longer boss fights. Something I liked about marauder more than gladiator was that they can use their stun attack off the global cool down, but it's cool down time was much longer if I remember correctly.

I think the general idea is that Warrior is an HP tank that has good AOE enmity gain. While Paladin is a high defense tank with less damage output. It felt like both can do their jobs well borrowing skills and using slightly different strategies. What we don't know is how much will late game bosses hurt. I think warrior will be a better tank for leveling, but maybe not in major boss type situations. I guess that's not very helpful huh?

Also I think I typed too much this time.. sorry! =T

Ildur · **08-03-2013, 08:22 AM**

I think the design idea is for Gladiators/Paladins to hold the bosses while Marauders/Warriors hold crowds of adds and trash mobs. At low level play it kind of doesn't matter: friends of mine have succesfully run pre-30 instances with no tank at all.

With that said, I know nothing about the jobs, but I assume they'll follow the same general principles as their base classes.

Gar · **08-03-2013, 09:03 AM**

(08-03-2013, 03:57 AM)Fiona Wrote: Just a quick question but why is it bad to be an offtank? I mostly played healing classes so I've yet to learn the in and outs of being a tank person!

Honestly? Part of it is most likely an ego thing. I have been tanking in MMOs for almost ten years now. Its been a unique experience. Depending on how the game worked, some of the time the "offtank" was just the less talented/geared tank who only really did things if the main tank died, and the rest of the time was just a gimpy DPS.

Though games have gotten better with two tank mechanics with aggro swapping and two boss fights, etc, so sometimes the offtank is just the tank with a little less leadership.

And maybe that is another part of it. I like being the main tank because I strive for leadership in a party/raid setting. In a lot of settings the tanks are highly scrutinized. I remember countless times being raged at for losing one mob's aggro when I was learning to tank the game I was in. So when I commit to tanking, I really get into it. I do my homework, I keep my gear updated, and I practice to learn every fight.

I really don't know the raid mechanics of this game, but Warrior actually is a perfectly made offtank. Like its been said, they have good AoE enmity so they can deal with adds, and when they're not put out some DPS (Not to the level of a true DPS, but more than a mitigation tank) So a Paladin/Warrior tanking duo would actually be a pretty good fit.

In some games, there becomes "the tank." Other tank classes just sort of fall short, so that is part of the reason I'm fretting between the two. I just hope they keep the two balanced with their respective strengths. It always sucks when a class starts to become obsolete.

Like I mentioned, given time I'll level both and we'll see from there. So maybe my biggest concern is an IC role? I dunno, I almost feel like I'm having an identity crisis if I don't go with the good 'ol fashion sword and board tank haha.

Sounsyy · **08-03-2013, 09:50 AM**

Hey Garryson, lemme see if I can help you out here. I have both PLD and WAR 50 from 1.0 and have played both classes almost exclusively in ARR beta to test out tanking. Here's what I found. But due note that this could all change as we move into P4 and Launch.

The two tanking classes are almost evenly matched. So let me start off by saying that there will not be a "PLD is the end-all be-all for endgame bosses" or anything like that. The two classes are almost evenly matched for enmity, abilities, stats, and defense(very different from 1.0). Their main difference is playstyle.

Paladins are the sword and board, classic defensive tank. They do little damage and specialize in defensive strategies. They have incredible abilities to mitigate damage and keep their moderate HP bar from falling. Shield Oath reduces all incoming damage by 25%. Rampart reduces all incoming damage by 20%. Sentinel by 40%. Bulwark raises their block rate by 60%. On top of their already impressive defense, they can easily make themselves an impervious wall to damage. They still gain a good majority of their enmity from their enmity combo Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Rage of Halone(which actually mitigates even more damage taken) but they have other means to gain enmity.

Warriors on the other hand are the offensive tank. This isn't to say that they actually have a higher damage rating than PLD, they don't, but that they gain enmity almost exclusively through damage. Despite Warriors having the exact same base defense rating as PLD, they take considerably more damage because they lack the damage reduction abilities that PLD has. They counter this by having a ridiculously high HP rating. (I got my WAR's HP up to 7k while testing during P3.) Warriors also have the ability to self heal through putting out more damage. This provides some level of mitigation while a boss smacks away your HP. Here's another difference. Warrior has more AoE power than Paladin. With Overpower and Steel Cyclone at their disposal, Warriors can make quick work of adds while still tanking a boss.

So knowing all that, how does this dynamic play out later in endgame?

Paladins, because of their high mitigation rate, use up very few party resources over time making them perfect for long drawn out fights against very hard hitting bosses. Because the White Mage doesn't have to spam-heal Paladins, they are able to mix in some very powerful damage in between cures and really assist a party with dps. Aero II is great DoT and Stone II just takes a chunk of damage off enemies. This is why many people fear PLD will outweigh WAR. Not because it's so much better, but it essentially facilitates more damage from other players because it requires so much less of its party.Â

Warriors on the other hand require a lot more help from their party. Being an HP tank really translates to being on a timer. So it is likely that Warriors will facilitate more zerg type boss strategies. They are invaluable due to their prowess at controlling AoE hate and assisting in AoE damage. With PLD as tank, THM and ARC's AoEs aren't super effective by themselves and usually expend more resources than they're worth. But with Warrior tank, who can assist in AoE damage, other classes AoE abilities become much more relevant. So this makes them great for Trash Mobs, Adds during bosses, lower defense bosses, etc.Â

I want to reiterate though that BOTH classes can tank whatever. PLDs have AoE capabilities and can hold AoE hate. Warriors can straight tank those single boss battles. I've tanked Cancer on 50 PLD and WAR successfully, while keeping aggro on all of the adds. It can be done, but those of us who are testing these classes out and pushing them to the limits understand that each is better suited for their specific niche. And I think that's a good thing. It creates a nice dynamic for tanking. It also allows for both tanks to be in the same party during endgame.

I can definitely see 24-man raids and even a lot of 8-man raids actually requiring you to have a PLD and WAR in your party. In 24-man raids probably even more. Theorizing here (because we don't have 8man raids yet) but running the dungeon, the PLD could absorb the adds damage, while the warrior assists in AoEing them down. Then during boss fights, the PLD and WAR would switch off depending on damage and resting phases. Warrior could tank the boss and the party could burn until it ran out of resources, then the Paladin would take over and tank while the party recovered lost tp/mp. The PLD could also Cover their WAR for hard hitting special attacks. Things like that maybe. Again this is all speculation.Â

But I hope that clears up some things for you. The TL;DR basically is that both tanks are equally capable at all aspects of tanking, but each has their niche. It will mostly likely end up being personal preference which one your party wants or which one you wish to tank content as.Â I encourage you to try out both. I am a PLD at heart, but I must say that WAR is a ton of fun to play as.

If you or anyone else here would like a little more in-depth info about the tanking classes, I have anÂ ARR Tanking GuideÂ that covers Beta Phase 3 and I'll be updating it to accommodate upcoming changes from Beta 4 and Launch.Â

Hope this helped!

xaaniko · **08-03-2013, 10:30 AM**

(08-03-2013, 03:11 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: So, from an RP perspective, the Marauder (which becomes the Warrior) would seem to attract a more offensive, "break stuff" character, while the Gladiator (which becomes the Paladin) would attract a more defensive, "strength and honor" character.

Which is exactly why, for RP reasons, I am picking Warrior over Paladin.

Felix Sideris · **08-03-2013, 11:13 AM**

-Deleted-

Sounsyy · **08-03-2013, 11:51 AM**

(08-03-2013, 11:13 AM)Felix Sideris Wrote: So, it's up to you. Is warrior main tanking possible? Probably, but I think they are meant to be more of an off-tank/aoe tank. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, and I didn't read all the responses before posting either so

I am sure there will be situations where there is large amounts of AoE or mobs that are hard to build threat on where the warrior will shine far more than a paladin ever could. Paladins can build single target threat easily, warriors can build aoe threat easily. They need eachother in order to be successful.

Even in 1.0 you could main tank all endgame content as a Warrior. There were some fights that Warrior excelled in main tanking over Paladin even. I think a lot of people forget that Paladin was actually the underdog tank in 1.0. There were many who believe that they were horrible tanks and didn't hold a candle to Warriors. So saying that Warrior has always been an off tank is a little inaccurate. Most people just didn't understand the dynamic between the two tank styles. Which thankfully, carries over to ARR. Not to the extremes as it did in 1.0 (thankfully the classes are balanced now) but the essence of that dynamic remains.

The second part I have to disagree with. Paladins and Warriors can both AoE tank well in ARR. The difference is that Paladins hold AoE hate while Warriors hold AoE hate while assisting in the killing of the adds. Basically meaning that a Paladin can AoE tank, but he/she doesn't do a lot to help crowd control those adds. Warrior holds hate by thinning out adds so that Warrior doesn't have to hold the adds as long. Which works well considering Warrior's playstyle. Paladins can sit there with a boss and a couple dozen adds all day and mitigate the damage until DDs take care of adds.

Gar · **08-03-2013, 12:12 PM**

(08-03-2013, 09:50 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Hey Garryson, lemme see if I can help you out here. I have both PLD and WAR 50 from 1.0 and have played both classes almost exclusively in ARR beta to test out tanking. Here's what I found. But due note that this could all change as we move into P4 and Launch.

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I wanted to know. I'll definitely be reading your guide. I'm still a little on the fence, but really eventually I'll have both leveled and geared for their respective niches.

That was pretty much what I was hoping for in this 2.0 version, that both tanks would be balanced with their own styles.

Is your tanking guide going to be in the same place as you update it, or will it be a different url I'll need to hunt down?

Felix Sideris · **08-03-2013, 12:21 PM**

(08-03-2013, 11:51 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(08-03-2013, 11:13 AM)Felix Sideris Wrote: So, it's up to you. Is warrior main tanking possible? Probably, but I think they are meant to be more of an off-tank/aoe tank. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, and I didn't read all the responses before posting either so

I am sure there will be situations where there is large amounts of AoE or mobs that are hard to build threat on where the warrior will shine far more than a paladin ever could. Paladins can build single target threat easily, warriors can build aoe threat easily. They need eachother in order to be successful.

Even in 1.0 you could main tank all endgame content as a Warrior. There were some fights that Warrior excelled in main tanking over Paladin even. I think a lot of people forget that Paladin was actually the underdog tank in 1.0. There were many who believe that they were horrible tanks and didn't hold a candle to Warriors. So saying that Warrior has always been an off tank is a little inaccurate. Most people just didn't understand the dynamic between the two tank styles. Which thankfully, carries over to ARR. Not to the extremes as it did in 1.0 (thankfully the classes are balanced now) but the essence of that dynamic remains.

The second part I have to disagree with. Paladins and Warriors can both AoE tank well in ARR. The difference is that Paladins hold AoE hate while Warriors hold AoE hate while assisting in the killing of the adds. Basically meaning that a Paladin can AoE tank, but he/she doesn't do a lot to help crowd control those adds. Warrior holds hate by thinning out adds so that Warrior doesn't have to hold the adds as long. Which works well considering Warrior's playstyle. Paladins can sit there with a boss and a couple dozen adds all day and mitigate the damage until DDs take care of adds.

Â Thanks for correcting me. I don't know much about either of the classes other than what I have heard/theory-crafted through seeing them being played. The last thing I want is to mislead people. I also didn't play 1.0 so I should probably have done some deeper research before giving advice about it. My apologies.

Merri · **08-03-2013, 12:47 PM**

Honestly, in my own personal opinion, I feel like Paladin is incredibly lackluster in XIV. I was originally a Gladiator, and planned on tanking as a Paladin as soon as the job system was announced, but we know how they dropped the ball with Paladin tanks in 1.0. I tanked a bit on my Warrior for endgame, but I eventually found myself on Monk (Well, BLM technically. Only ever got to play my Monk on Miser, and ever so rarely on Chimera. ; ; ). However, I played Warrior quite a bit while solo. Let us never forget how OP Warrior was when the jobs first were released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycZwW66ACg

Now, I played around on all my jobs during phase 3, but I almost exclusively played on my Monk and my Warrior. Eventually I decided to play around between Paladin and Warrior, and I honestly felt completely underwhelmed with Paladin. It just felt like it completely lacked the ability to do things, even at 50. They have a minimal amount of offensive skills, which is to be given with a tank, but all I felt while playing it was me waiting around on defensive cooldowns while spamming the same two combos over and over. Now, that might obviously change during real endgame where we have mechanics to deal with, but I just found the job to be flat out boring. There were no combos to build into (outside of weaponskill combos). There weren't really any abilities you could chain together, outside of just popping your defensive cooldowns one after the other.

Warrior, on the other hand, felt like it had so much more depth to it's gameplay. I absolutely adore the wrath system. It's incredibly fun and kept me totally engaged in what I was doing. There were also so many possible chains and combos between abilities to just feel like you were an absolute powerhouse, albeit briefly.

For example, you could churn out some pretty crazy burst by building up an infuriate, popping Unchained, popping Berserk, using Infuriate for a free five stacks of wrath, and then blowing Inner Beast to just wreck face (and heal for a considerable amount).

Warrior just has a ton of things going on. Multiple weaponskill combos, pretty great self-healing capabilities, plenty of defensive cooldowns. Everything just flowed great, and I never found myself bored or sitting around waiting for defensive cooldowns. I always had something to do, or a weaponskill chain to go through. Not to mention AoE tanking capabilities are top notch.

Now, some one could honestly have the opposite experience and thinking Warrior is boring and Paladin is great, but that's just how I felt from phase 3.

Sounsyy · **08-03-2013, 01:05 PM**

(08-03-2013, 12:12 PM)Garryson Wrote: Is your tanking guide going to be in the same place as you update it, or will it be a different url I'll need to hunt down?

Yes, I'll be making updates on those existing posts. As more information becomes available I'll try to clean the posts up a bit more, make them a little more friendly on the eyes and a little less walls of text.

Thought I'd take a little bit of time and briefly discuss the lore behind the two classes as well. I think its important to remember (because it seems like a ton of people forget) that Classes have almost nothing to do with their associated Jobs lore-wise for the most part.

So we'll start with Marauders and Warriors. Marauders from lore are just pirates. Not all pirates are Marauders, but great axes are generally associated as being a pirate weapon in Eorzea. Much like we associate eye patches with pirates in the real world. They storm headfirst into combat and decimate their foes with their massive great axes. They rely on brute strength to overcome their opponents and have been known to wipe out packs of monsters or entire villages without getting a scratch.

To the far north, near Abalathia's Spine, there is a tribe of Hellsguard who practice a veryÂ bestialÂ style of fighting. These self-proclaimed Warriors succumb to the beast within us all and allow animal instincts to control their motions in combat. The result is a savage killing machine that is nigh unstoppable. In times of war, these Hellsguard Warriors offered themselves up as mercenaries to the highest bidder. However, when peace came, a Warrior's savagery was no longer necessary and in some cases was even shunned. So the art was all but forgotten, even by many of the Hellsguard who remain today in Abalthia's Spine.Â

Now Gladiators and Paladins. Gladiators are the masters of all one-handed blades and shields. Though the art of swordplay has always existed in Eorzea, the name Gladiator was not given to these swordsmen until the advent of the Bloodsands. In older days, the coliseum would attract brave and proud disciples of war from all across Eorzea to fight against one another for the chance of gil and glory. These participants were called Gladiators. Eventually a Guild was establish to train new Gladiators so that there would never be a lack of participants on the Bloodsands. This guild specialized in combat with shields and swords. (Though it is not a requirement to wield a sword and shield to participate in the Bloodsands.) Over time people grew bored with Gladiator vs Gladiator and so the Coliseum pitted their Gladiators against fearsome beasts from all over Eorzea.

Paladins are those select few individuals sworn to protect the Sultana and those members of the royal family of Ul'dah. The only canon way to be a Paladin is to be or have been a Sultansworn. With thy shield, protect; with thy sword, defend. The Sultansworn usually chose their own and only the best and most dedicated swordsmen have a chance at being selected. If chosen, the wanna-be Paladin must swear on oath to always protect the royal family with their life.Â

Sounsyy · **08-03-2013, 01:35 PM**

(08-03-2013, 12:47 PM)Merri Wrote: I honestly felt completely underwhelmed with Paladin. It just felt like it completely lacked the ability to do things, even at 50.

Warrior, on the other hand, felt like it had so much more depth to it's gameplay. I absolutely adore the wrath system. It's incredibly fun and kept me totally engaged in what I was doing. There were also so many possible chains and combos between abilities to just feel like you were an absolute powerhouse, albeit briefly.

(Meh double posting lol)

I kind of have to agree with you. Having PLD as my main, I was a little let down by some of the design choices of the new Paladin. Don't get me wrong, it does exactly what it is built to do. It functions great as a defensive tank and holds enmity exceptionally well. It plays well. But I think it lost some of it's fun edge in combat. I don't know, it just doesn't feel like it's done to me.Â

I think the loss of Succor was a huge blow. I feel really helpless without it. Sure I can mitigate nearly all damage done against me, but I can't really do anything about it. I just have to sit there and take it like a wall. I feel like I don't really have a use for my MP pool. I have a moderately high MP pool and no spells worth casting. Also not a huge fan of Sword and Shield Oath. Maybe if they took out Sword Oath and replaced it with Succor and kept just Shield Oath this problem would be alleviated. The Shield Oath toggle spell doesn't need a counterpart. Defiance is a toggle and it works just fine solo on WAR.Â

Idk, in 1.0 Paladin was the underdog, and to be a good tank you had to work. You had to work hard. Using your abilities at the right moment was the difference between life and death for you and your party. In ARR I feel like Paladins don't have to work as hard. On PLD I'm not as busy. WAR seems to have taken that. A good WAR is mixing damage combos with enmity combos, having to juggle and time heals, and make the most of their HP and defense against bosses.Â

The two tanks are very well balanced now, but I honestly prefer the tank class that is more likely to die if something goes wrong.

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