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synaesthetic · **08-10-2013, 03:34 AM**

(08-10-2013, 03:13 AM)Reppu Wrote: And in the chance, likely as it may be, that nothing comes of all of it? Set the example. Push for your equality, but keep in mind that while we're asking for acceptance and equality, we must also be open minded to the difference in culture, and the slowly progressing change of the world.

While this is a realistic issue? This is also a game. If by November there is no gay marriage? Hold your own ceremonies. Throw big bashes. Have your weddings even if they're not using some random mechanic.

Show everyone you won't be kept down. But be tolerant of the fact that other cultures, other restrictions still exist. Be accepting, while not submissive.

Fight, but fight with passion.

What is this I don't even

I DON'T EVEN.

Why the FUCK should I be accepting of someone else's irrational and unreasonable hatred? Why should I, a member of the oppressed population, be accepting of someone else's desire to oppress me?

I don't know what the hell you're smoking but seriously, did you even read what you just wrote? Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?

No. HELL no. Seriously, pike off. By accepting their homophobia you're offering tacit approval of their homophobia.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 03:41 AM**

(08-10-2013, 03:34 AM)synaesthetic Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:13 AM)Reppu Wrote: And in the chance, likely as it may be, that nothing comes of all of it? Set the example. Push for your equality, but keep in mind that while we're asking for acceptance and equality, we must also be open minded to the difference in culture, and the slowly progressing change of the world.

While this is a realistic issue? This is also a game. If by November there is no gay marriage? Hold your own ceremonies. Throw big bashes. Have your weddings even if they're not using some random mechanic.

Show everyone you won't be kept down. But be tolerant of the fact that other cultures, other restrictions still exist. Be accepting, while not submissive.

Fight, but fight with passion.

What is this I don't even

I DON'T EVEN.

Why the FUCK should I be accepting of someone else's irrational and unreasonable hatred? Why should I, a member of the oppressed population, be accepting of someone else's desire to oppress me?

I don't know what the hell you're smoking but seriously, did you even read what you just wrote? Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?

No. HELL no. Seriously, pike off. By accepting their homophobia you're offering tacit approval of their homophobia.

Your toxic behavior shames us all. Perhaps you will be more tolerant of a nation struggling with it's population, both in abundance and in a recent decline of reproduction, just as you have the gull to demand tolerance.

You use extremes because you lack the foundation to make a case. You compare people to the most vile of foes, simply because they do not share your extremist mindset. You insist on slinging absolutes and utter negatives, to deface and defame those you stand against.

No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

But so long as you throw slander? So long as you use toxic absolutes and false comparisons when someone stands with this cautionary, understandable stance considering the differing in cultures, differing in national station?

You're doomed to fall into the discrimination side of things as well. I fight for my equality while understanding the actual, real-world problems with the ones we're dealing with. I do not immediately cast them and others into the most vile of extremists, just because they are cautionary in a massive, world-changing debate.

I understand equality in all positions, not just my own. I understand social upheaval is necessary, but both sides must understand the ramifications, to begin to demand change.

I will never call someone who doesn't side with my point of view, such... blatantly disgusting and insulting things. We'll not speak again. I've said my peace considering your stance, and only hope you realize how you're acting.

Ashren Dotharl · **08-10-2013, 03:43 AM**

(08-10-2013, 03:34 AM)synaesthetic Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:13 AM)Reppu Wrote: And in the chance, likely as it may be, that nothing comes of all of it? Set the example. Push for your equality, but keep in mind that while we're asking for acceptance and equality, we must also be open minded to the difference in culture, and the slowly progressing change of the world.

While this is a realistic issue? This is also a game. If by November there is no gay marriage? Hold your own ceremonies. Throw big bashes. Have your weddings even if they're not using some random mechanic.

Show everyone you won't be kept down. But be tolerant of the fact that other cultures, other restrictions still exist. Be accepting, while not submissive.

Fight, but fight with passion.

What is this I don't even

I DON'T EVEN.

Why the FUCK should I be accepting of someone else's irrational and unreasonable hatred? Why should I, a member of the oppressed population, be accepting of someone else's desire to oppress me?

I don't know what the hell you're smoking but seriously, did you even read what you just wrote? Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?

No. HELL no. Seriously, pike off. By accepting their homophobia you're offering tacit approval of their homophobia.

/thread

synaesthetic · **08-10-2013, 03:44 AM**

What personal attacks? Slander? Where?

I didn't slander anyone.

Naunet · **08-10-2013, 03:47 AM**

(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: Your toxic behavior shames us all. Perhaps you will be more tolerant of a nation struggling with it's population, both in abundance and in a recent decline of reproduction, just as you have the gull to demand tolerance.

You use extremes because you lack the foundation to make a case. You compare people to the most vile of foes, simply because they do not share your extremist mindset. You insist on slinging absolutes and utter negatives, to deface and defame those you stand against.

No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

It is absolutely not toxic to call someone on their intolerance - whether intentional or not - actions or words. It is totally okay to be intolerant of intolerance. I am not a bad person for not tolerating racism or sexism or homophobia or religious discrimination or any other bad thing.

And incidentally, the only way our equality can be acknowledged is if they actually implement the marriage system with no restrictions. This "taking time to consider" crap? That's not acknowledging equality - that's actually giving credence to the side that would rather there be inequality.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:01 AM**

(08-10-2013, 03:47 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: Your toxic behavior shames us all. Perhaps you will be more tolerant of a nation struggling with it's population, both in abundance and in a recent decline of reproduction, just as you have the gull to demand tolerance.

You use extremes because you lack the foundation to make a case. You compare people to the most vile of foes, simply because they do not share your extremist mindset. You insist on slinging absolutes and utter negatives, to deface and defame those you stand against.

No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

It is absolutely not toxic to call someone on their intolerance - whether intentional or not - actions or words. It is totally okay to be intolerant of intolerance. I am not a bad person for not tolerating racism or sexism or homophobia or religious discrimination or any other bad thing.

And incidentally, the only way our equality can be acknowledged is if they actually implement the marriage system with no restrictions. This "taking time to consider" crap? That's not acknowledging equality - that's actually giving credence to the side that would rather there be inequality.

Taking time to consider it with a mechanic that isn't implemented yet.

You demand change immediately, but are not sensitive to the other side of the thing. Keep in mind this is a culture based on tradition, heavily, for generations. It's going to be a slow process for them, but at least it's more open-minded in Japan, enough that it can be -considered-, then it is in Russia, or the Middle-East.

And yes, it is toxic to compare everyone who isn't immediately on your side, to the Middle-East. That's beyond toxic. That's hateful. That is what you do when you take context, bend it over, and shove an entirely different thing down it's throat.

Japanese tradition and standing population decline =/= Middle-East anti-homosexuality execution practices.

Get off it, everyone, please.

But I do understand I am the 'minority' here, even if my increasing reputation supports I have -some- agreements on my side. I will not 'fight' this nor make enemies, because I am not here to make enemies. I am simply here asking people to understand the other side. The actual other side. Not the Middle-East. Not Russia. Japan.

SquareEnix (Not Squeenix) is a Japanese company, and a very traditional one in so much that they still hold firm to that tradition. Should this tradition change? We can say 'yes' all we want, but it's the Japanese that must come to that decision.

We can edge it forward as much as we want, but we need to be examples of the 'good' behind it. For as much as a bunch of gamers count, which can sometimes be a lot.

AkhutaiAngura · **08-10-2013, 04:02 AM**

(08-10-2013, 03:47 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: Your toxic behavior shames us all. Perhaps you will be more tolerant of a nation struggling with it's population, both in abundance and in a recent decline of reproduction, just as you have the gull to demand tolerance.

You use extremes because you lack the foundation to make a case. You compare people to the most vile of foes, simply because they do not share your extremist mindset. You insist on slinging absolutes and utter negatives, to deface and defame those you stand against.

No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

It is absolutely not toxic to call someone on their intolerance - whether intentional or not - actions or words. It is totally okay to be intolerant of intolerance. I am not a bad person for not tolerating racism or sexism or homophobia or religious discrimination or any other bad thing.

And incidentally, the only way our equality can be acknowledged is if they actually implement the marriage system with no restrictions. This "taking time to consider" crap? That's not acknowledging equality - that's actually giving credence to the side that would rather there be inequality.

What Reppu is saying, I think, is that being intolerant of intolerance is fine.

You should be the bigger person, be the adult, and approach it calmly. Let the intolerant person show their idiocy, thier bigotry and.. Whatever other words you want to throw out to describe them.

But you, you should be the adult and remain calm and cool. Otherwise, you're no better than they are because you're all acting the same.

ATleast, that's how I'm interpreting it.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:10 AM**

(08-10-2013, 04:02 AM)Kaln Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:47 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: Your toxic behavior shames us all. Perhaps you will be more tolerant of a nation struggling with it's population, both in abundance and in a recent decline of reproduction, just as you have the gull to demand tolerance.

You use extremes because you lack the foundation to make a case. You compare people to the most vile of foes, simply because they do not share your extremist mindset. You insist on slinging absolutes and utter negatives, to deface and defame those you stand against.

No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

It is absolutely not toxic to call someone on their intolerance - whether intentional or not - actions or words. It is totally okay to be intolerant of intolerance. I am not a bad person for not tolerating racism or sexism or homophobia or religious discrimination or any other bad thing.

And incidentally, the only way our equality can be acknowledged is if they actually implement the marriage system with no restrictions. This "taking time to consider" crap? That's not acknowledging equality - that's actually giving credence to the side that would rather there be inequality.

What Reppu is saying, I think, is that being intolerant of intolerance is fine.

You should be the bigger person, be the adult, and approach it calmly. Let the intolerant person show their idiocy, thier bigotry and.. Whatever other words you want to throw out to describe them.

But you, you should be the adult and remain calm and cool. Otherwise, you're no better than they are because you're all acting the same.

ATleast, that's how I'm interpreting it.

It's what I am saying, and have said in numerous posts. Thank you for seeing it for what it is, and not the LGBT supporter suddenly being supportive of the Middle-East actions.

... Granted, I feel that, while that is horrible? The Middle-East is a minority in so much that it's the firm Christian purists that are actually making advancement difficult. The Middle-East will change when -they- change. Or they won't and no one will care.

Aldeus · **08-10-2013, 04:35 AM**

Being intolerant of intolerance isn't wrong, but it isn't productive either.Â Let's just keep reminding people why it isn't a bad idea to implement same gendered marriage in the game.Â

I would like to reiterate the point that the people who would be offended by gay marriage in the game are people who most likely wouldn't play in the first place, but the people who would be ok with or appreciative of it are likely the kinds of young people who play video games in large numbers.Â The threat of "backlash" is a red herring that's tossed out all the time.Â Like when One Million Moms protestedÂ DC having a gay Green Lantern.Â No one cared because they don't buy comic books anyway.Â

Reppu does make a good pointÂ in arguing that it's best to put inÂ gay marriage after launch so the game isn't rated 18+ or banned anywhere, but seeing as marriage won't be implemented at launch anyway, it's kind of a fallacious argument.

Clover · **08-10-2013, 04:56 AM**

On the other hand, this is an RP community, and most races don't evenÂ have marriage traditions. Those few which have (is there anyone else other than hyurs?) could always RP their ceremonies, since the lore is supposed to allow this kind of marriage.
Â
I think it's just a matter of time until same-sex marriages are implemented. Their last news about it were from the last year, yes? Who knows, maybe they've had the time to change their mind for now. We'll have to wait for more news.
Â
(Just for the record, I won't be using the marriage system in any form myself.)

Ashren Dotharl · **08-10-2013, 05:06 AM**

I think the lot of you need to stop and ask yourself a few questions before posting anything else in this thread.

Does getting married, same sex or otherwise, effect your ability to play this game?
Does getting married, same sex or otherwise, through the game mechanics affect your ability to get married ICly? Do you NEED this mechanic in order to validate your coupling IC?
Does a marriage in a game affect you in real life or have any impact on you outside of the game?
Will the implementation of same sex marriage in a video game increase tolerance of gay rights globally or even nationally in any way?
Do you think that making demands on a forum that SE does not read, or even one that they do, will get your point across adequately enough to make a change, or even facilitate a response from the developers?

If you answered no to any of these questions, you should probably move on with your life because this topic has veered very far off course and only marginally has anything to do with FFXIV or its marriage system anymore.

Clover · **08-10-2013, 05:19 AM**

(08-10-2013, 05:06 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: I think the lot of you need to stop and ask yourself a few questions before posting anything else in this thread.

Does getting married, same sex or otherwise, effect your ability to play this game?

Does getting married, same sex or otherwise, through the game mechanics affect your ability to get married ICly? Do you NEED this mechanic in order to validate your coupling IC?

Does a marriage in a game affect you in real life or have any impact on you outside of the game?

Will the implementation of same sex marriage in a video game increase tolerance of gay rights globally or even nationally in any way?

Do you think that making demands on a forum that SE does not read, or even one that they do, will get your point across adequately enough to make a change, or even facilitate a response from the developers?

If you answered no to any of these questions, you should probably move on with your life because this topic has veered very far off course and only marginally has anything to do with FFXIV or its marriage system anymore.

I'm not one of the people affected by it (I even believe that the marriage system in general is useless), but I *think* that their problem isn't limited to how this will affect their game experience. Many people have suffered from discrimination irl, and I imagine it makes them uncomfortable to, in a sense, see it reflected in-game as well. Whether or not they'll use this system is irrelevant; I think they simply want to know that they're treated as equals, and that their tastes are ultimately respected and welcomed.
Â
This is how I understood it, at least. I apologize if it's not the case.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 05:36 AM**

(08-10-2013, 04:35 AM)Aldeus Wrote: Being intolerant of intolerance isn't wrong, but it isn't productive either.Â Let's just keep reminding people why it isn't a bad idea to implement same gendered marriage in the game.Â

I would like to reiterate the point that the people who would be offended by gay marriage in the game are people who most likely wouldn't play in the first place, but the people who would be ok with or appreciative of it are likely the kinds of young people who play video games in large numbers.Â The threat of "backlash" is a red herring that's tossed out all the time.Â Like when One Million Moms protestedÂ DC having a gay Green Lantern.Â No one cared because they don't buy comic books anyway.Â

Reppu does make a good pointÂ in arguing that it's best to put inÂ gay marriage after launch so the game isn't rated 18+ or banned anywhere, but seeing as marriage won't be implemented at launch anyway, it's kind of a fallacious argument.

Most of these are purely assumptions, just as you're saying what we're doing is based off assumptions as well.

In the end? All we can do, and respectively should, is wait. That's... the entire point of my argument, or lack there of. Wait, see what happens when it's actually implemented. Calling people white-knights of discrimination is ludicrous, to say the least. Comparing Square-Enix to the Middle-East or Russia is beyond toxic.

So on and so forth. Is there a problem in waiting, while keeping the issue known? I, for one, think not.

And even if Square-Enix doesn't allow it? It's... not really discrimination. Discrimination would be banning players for even attempting to have non-traditional weddings. But I do hope they don't go the route of not allowing it. But even if they do? Oh well.

At least, I don't feel it's a major crap on my rights. But if Eorzea really is neutral on all gender fronts, it would be odd. But I haven't seen the proof of this being stated by a developer/in lore yet.

At the end of the day; Both sides are making assumptions. It's assumed SquareEnix will not allow it. It's assumed if they did it too soon, there MAY be backlash (Note the may there, it's what we often use in defense of Yoshida's decision).

Better to be cautious with little to no ramifications, than hasty with the potential for them. I do not think the LGBT community should be up in arms when the feature will not even be out for months.

synaesthetic · **08-10-2013, 05:53 AM**

Why should we wait? So Squeenix can take my money and then, oh, later on, after they've already gotten six months of subscription fees out of me, then they'll drop heteronormative-limited marriage into the game.

They should tell me now if they think I'm worthless so I can decide beforehand to take my money elsewhere.

Square-Enix is a business. FFXIV is a product they are selling. We aren't happy-time friends here, this is a business transaction. If they fail to make their product worth my money then I'm going to take my money directly to their competitors.

Yini Kihn · **08-10-2013, 05:57 AM**

(08-10-2013, 05:19 AM)Clover Wrote: I'm not one of the people affected by it (I even believe that the marriage system in general is useless), but I *think* that their problem isn't limited to how this will affect their game experience. Many people have suffered from discrimination irl, and I imagine it makes them uncomfortable to, in a sense, see it reflected in-game as well.

That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting peopleâ€”or at least what's upsetting meâ€”not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game.

(08-10-2013, 05:36 AM)Reppu Wrote: And even if Square-Enix doesn't allow it? It's... not really discrimination.

I sympathize with your desire to approach this in a constructive manner, but we must be honest about things: This is unquestionably discrimination based on sexual orientation regardless of whether one thinks it is justified or not.

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Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

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