RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 03:50 PM**

(08-10-2013, 03:47 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:44 PM)Reppu Wrote: Alerting you to blatant thoughtcrimes is a favor, not a negative line being crossed. If you see it purely as malicious, that is not my intent. I do apologize if you took it as such, but I do not apologize for pointing it out.

Thoughtcrimes? This is not 1984 (the novel). There is absolutely nothingÂ wrong with being passionate about opposing inequality, but there's certainly something wrong with telling said passionate person that they need to stop.

Really?

"white knights that support passive-discrimination." - To anyone not sharing the exact same viewpoint.

"Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?" - To asking for patience and tolerance for the Japanese culture that SquareEnix is rooted in.

This is suddenly acceptable? Really? These statements are 'passionate'?

(08-10-2013, 03:49 PM)Eve Malusion Wrote: Snip~

You missed my point, and I'll clarify; I noted that an MMO has not launched with, or confirmed before launch, with gay marriage/romance as a feature. And apparently I am correct on this.

What I am saying is, basically, there is a chance, slim or otherwise, that FFXIV could be, again this is just a chance in this crazy world we live in, banned or otherwise forced into an 18+ or higher rating, for having this feature, due to how some countries (many) view it.

That is basically all I'm saying for anyone who thinks having it confirmed RIGHT NOW will not hurt SquareEnix at all, period. The fact is, a dumb chance does exist, because the world sucks like that.

shotgunbadger · **08-10-2013, 03:56 PM**

So to be clear the off random chance that the gamy may get an unfairly higher rating because of bigots means we need to just chillax and hope maybe one day Square decides to acknowledge we exist, but also we can't be TOO forceful about it otherwise we're just bad bad uppity gays? So basically just 'hey trust the guys who said maybe someday'?

synaesthetic · **08-10-2013, 03:57 PM**

I'd rather they take the hit and show they can be progressive, forward-thinking entities than perpetuating the cultural stagnation in Japan.

I'm engaged to a Japanese woman. I'm sitting right next to her now, and she would tell you firsthand just how fucked-up her culture is, especially in regards to homosexuality. She is incredibly grateful that she lives in a country that doesn't all but hold her at gunpoint and force her into the heteronormative baby-making wife paradigm.

Are you a weeaboo? Do you think Japan is the best planet in the universe? Do you wish you were Japanese or something? I've been to Japan. I'm engaged to a Japanese woman. I know that Japan is not any sort of utopia. It's got problems, major problems, and their view of homosexuality is seriously regressive and totally terrible.

So no, I don't respect Japan's culture where it is used to oppress people. I am intolerant of intolerance, and if you aren't, I hope you're happy being oppressed, because that's all you're going to get if you just "deal with it."

Twinflame · **08-10-2013, 03:58 PM**

(08-10-2013, 03:19 PM)Meia Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.

That's exactly how it happened, right?

But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin.

Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side.

I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.

Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.

Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.

May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.

Rinh Hallani · **08-10-2013, 03:59 PM**

I'm shocked and quite frankly disgusted that magic, cat-people and so on can exist in this game but non-hetero marriage is apparently too much. I've read the "Japanese culture can't handle it" excuse many times in this thread and, in my opinion, it doesn't fly. I wouldn't accept that for racism so why should I accept it for homophobia? I'm writing SE to explain exactly how I feel on this subject; probably will be ignored but it's all I can do.

My ideal resolution? Either allow marriage to be free of restrictions or don't implement it at all.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 03:59 PM**

(08-10-2013, 03:56 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: So to be clear the off random chance that the gamy may get an unfairly higher rating because of bigots means we need to just chillax and hope maybe one day Square decides to acknowledge we exist, but also we can't be TOO forceful about it otherwise we're just bad bad uppity gays? So basically just 'hey trust the guys who said maybe someday'?

No one said to 'chillax' and ignore the issue at hand. This is another extreme statement and is twisting what everyone is saying.

What is being asked is to put trust in Yoshida to deliver a favorable outcome. What is being asked is to understand the cultural difference, but not accept it. It is to show tolerance, but not tolerance to intolerance.

We're not being violently opposed. We're actually being listened to. We're being shown understanding and empathy. In turn, this should provoke understanding and empathy. This should provoke patience, while keeping the fire burning, and the anvil hot.

Just in case we need to reforge our weapons. But if you continue attacking? If you continue forcefully pushing? You will lose that empathy, and you will lose that understanding.

No one wants to be bullied. No one should EVER be bullied.

And using Microsoft as an example is silly and needs to stop. There's a difference between being told to shut up and like it, and being told that the issue is being looked into.

synaesthetic · **08-10-2013, 04:01 PM**

(08-10-2013, 03:59 PM)katattax Wrote: I'm shocked and quite frankly disgusted that magic, cat-people and so on can exist in this game but non-hetero marriage is apparently too much. I've read the "Japanese culture can't handle it" excuse many times in this thread and, in my opinion, it doesn't fly. I wouldn't accept that for racism so why should I accept it for homophobia? I'm writing SE to explain exactly how I feel on this subject; probably will be ignored but it's all I can do.

My ideal resolution? Either allow marriage to be free of restrictions or don't implement it at all.

My fiancee just had the idea of getting me to write an open letter to Square-Enix on this topic that she will translate into Japanese. We will post this letter on the official FFXIV forums as well as sending it in e-mail form to Square-Enix.

Gideon Aryeh · **08-10-2013, 04:01 PM**

(08-10-2013, 02:43 PM)Reppu Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 02:33 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.

I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.

Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.

Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time...

"I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.'

That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far.

-

Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"?

Â *rolls eyes at this*
Â
Something like this didn't even need to be said at all. Because A. It isn't true in the leastÂ and B. Why should something like this even be said in this thread? Its honestly insulting and has nothing to do with the topic at hand at all.
Â
Â
I'm going to walk away from this fallacy.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:01 PM**

(08-10-2013, 03:58 PM)Twinflame Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:19 PM)Meia Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:41 AM)Reppu Wrote: No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged.

So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality.

That's exactly how it happened, right?

But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin.

Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side.

I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.

Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.

Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.

May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.

Except your case didn't happen, because history is set in stone. What is reality, now, is we're being heard. We're being understood. We've been shown empathy.

Give me a scenario where this approach has happened, and has failed miserably. Then, you have a case. But when you present utter bollocks and fantasy to undermine my case? You've only just immediately failed yourself.

Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current.

Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy.

I look forward to your next post, honestly.

Yini Kihn · **08-10-2013, 04:02 PM**

I think everyone's heart is in the right place here. There's just a disagreement on tacticsâ€”mostly, anyway.

Perhaps we can make this productive if we can come up with concrete things to do to actually increase the chance of same-sex marriage being supported for 2.1. Posting on the beta forum is obviously doing nothingâ€”the posts just get deleted as trolls flock to them instantly. There's a petition for same-sex marriage in A Realm Reborn: Is it worth getting more people to sign it? Is it appropriate to write letters to Square-Enix?

If we can't come up with anything worth doing, we might as well just relax and wait for 2.1. A squabble on the RPC isn't going to change things no matter how passionate and well-intentioned everyone is.

(Also, if you keep this up, they're just going to lock this thread!)

shotgunbadger · **08-10-2013, 04:02 PM**

I'm sorry it's just, why should I trust Yoshida? I mean I love the games he makes, but literally all I know about his view of gay representation is his one 'eh we'll wait for feedback'.

Someone brought up The Old Republic before, remember that when the devs outright said 'yea we'll have gay stuff for companions' and then didn't deliver until Planet of the Gays dropped and we had to spend money for a crappy expansion that had like, two dudes who said "BY THE BY I LIKEA THE DUDES" and that was a win somehow?Â

I straight up don't trust people in media about homosexuality being portrayed in a good way until I actually see it, and I have no reason to think I should start it now.

Naunet · **08-10-2013, 04:03 PM**

(08-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Reppu Wrote: "Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?" - To asking for patience and tolerance for the Japanese culture that SquareEnix is rooted in.

This is suddenly acceptable? Really? These statements are 'passionate'?

I didn't say this. Please don't lump everyone together just because it's convenient for your point.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:03 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Rock Sandbourne Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 02:43 PM)Reppu Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 02:33 PM)Zizirimu Yayarimu Wrote: Reppu, I am not sure what you mean. I am reading a little negativity there with the short, 2 word reply though. I wont engage you for the purpose of this discussion if that's the case. Sorry about anything I may have caused.

I'm a little lost with your reply Colyer, but I don't think I am getting any closer to my inquiry at the moment.

Adelpha, I am not sure what happened before in 1.0 but player history wouldn't matter in this case. It's just like with introduction of new genders suddenly... people have to change their backgrounds. I am sympathetic, but I don't think lore should be effected by what happened before.

Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time...

"I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.'

That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far.

-

Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"?
Â *rolls eyes at this*

Something like this didn't even need to be said at all. Because A. It isn't true in the leastÂ and B. Why should something like this even be said in this thread?

I'm going to walk away from this fallacy.

I've actually seen this tossed around on these very forums. Also, I said 'a few people', because three is 'a few'.

I was not attacking Gilgamesh, or anyone in specific. I was not even attacking anyone. There's no need to get your knickers in a bunch. If I'm wrong and this was not being said (although I believe I could find the individuals saying this if I bothered), my apologies.

But, you can't honestly speak for your entire server. Nor was I saying all of Gilgamesh was doing this.

Thank you.

(08-10-2013, 04:03 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Reppu Wrote: "Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?" - To asking for patience and tolerance for the Japanese culture that SquareEnix is rooted in.

This is suddenly acceptable? Really? These statements are 'passionate'?

I didn't say this. Please don't lump everyone together just because it's convenient for your point.

You didn't, you're right. I've said, what, three times now, that your stance is admirable? That despite a few power words, you are someone I admire despite being on the more extreme end of this?

Are you reading my posts that praise you and show empathy?

Arelian · **08-10-2013, 04:04 PM**

Square Enix is a company. They will do what is best for their wallets, especially with the company teetering on the edge of financial collapse as it is. The game gaining a higher rating in some countries can adversely effect sales in that country, perhaps even to the point of the game not being profitable.

That is literally the last thing SE wants.

Yelling, kicking and screaming accomplishes nothing if you don't vote with the one thing a consumer has the right to: Their money. If you dislike something a company is doing, don't support their product.

The reason Microsoft changed the XBox One policies? It has nothing to do with any of the 'outrage' but has everything to do the sales numbers. It was easy enough to see on Amazon preorders that the PS4 was outselling the XBox one in preorders. It didn't take a genius to figure out why, either.

So instead of ranting, raving and throwing out rhetoric to try and persuade people that you are right, I encourage people that are negatively affected by this (or anyone that feels passionately enough about the subject) to not support the game. Show Square Enix that they stand to lose more money by not offering marriage equality compared to risking having the game get an 18+ rating in other countries.

Of course, this could all be bunk and they add it in regardless of what anyone says. I dunno.

Either way, I think everyone can agree that Square Enix certainly opened an odd can of worms on themselves by adding this feature in the first place. It's not hard to look at international news and see that homosexual rights is a hot topic all over the world.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:05 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:02 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I'm sorry it's just, why should I trust Yoshida? I mean I love the games he makes, but literally all I know about his view of gay representation is his one 'eh we'll wait for feedback'.

Someone brought up The Old Republic before, remember that when the devs outright said 'yea we'll have gay stuff for companions' and then didn't deliver until Planet of the Gays dropped and we had to spend money for a crappy expansion that had like, two dudes who said "BY THE BY I LIKEA THE DUDES" and that was a win somehow?Â

I straight up don't trust people in media about homosexuality being portrayed in a good way until I actually see it, and I have no reason to think I should start it now.

All I can say to this, and this is unfortunate and sad. To me, personally. But, you're obviously allowed to have this stance.

Also, really? The giant pink planet was kind of facepalm worthy to me from TOR.

« Next Oldest \| Next Newest »
Thread Closed Pages (21): « Previous 1 … 14 15 16 17 18 … 21 Next » Jump to page:

Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes