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Faye · **09-30-2013, 06:00 PM**

(09-30-2013, 05:49 PM)X Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 05:40 PM)Faye Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 05:36 PM)X Wrote: As said above, show, don't tell.

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.
I agree on that point too! Which was what I was trying to say a little further down.

I'm a big advocate of helping people to improve. However, you only get chewed out for attempting to be helpful so many times before you elect to stop approaching people about how they can improve and instead wait for them to ask. People take it as an insult, like they're not 'good enough' if you attempt to share your observations with them.

I don't insult people under any circumstance. There's just, frankly, no excuse to be rude to someone ever. Even with the mini-rant above about metagaming, I meant it to convey my pet peeve with a tone of jest... which knowing me did not come across at all and rather seems like elitist snobbery.

Your rant was fine, and definitely on the topic of a relatable annoyance! I wasn't trying to call you personally out with that remark--it was just a general statement and mostly in regards to the original post which, while I may be misinterpreting, I took as pretty much saying, "You can do this, but you're wrong."

Rosekitten · **09-30-2013, 06:22 PM**

I'm pretty open to all forms of writing, I know some are not as talented as others (I group myself into this even if I'm told at times I am a good writer). I let some personal thoughts slid as knowing them as the player behind the RP character it can help describe the mood that might be on the other characters face or expression or tone of voice.Â

now if they did this constantly and nothing but I might question them in a tell if they want any tips or if they really do want me to read into those personal thoughts... I try to be pretty flexible as I do work with a lot of players who are new to rp as well as ones that put my writing to shame easily.Â

I know personally I use some ic personal thoughts when I have no action or emote for something. But it will be in combination with some sort of action that can probably easily be read with whatever the current mood of the conversation is or that my character has.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-30-2013, 06:28 PM**

I'm semi-up there with the wrong-doers.

Siobhain makes a... lot... of... faces. Her facial expressions and body language are 80% of what makes her, her. Some people who have known her for a while now, as PLAYERS may not read what their CHARACTERS would recall. Like, they've seen this behavior before, several times, but they had a hard work day IRL so they're just taking things at face value. I don't write 'This is ridiculous' she thinks to herself, very often simply because Sio is hard to read.

Siobhain goes rigid, her shoulders squaring at the stranger's touch on her bicep. Immediately, the muscles of her jaw begin to work, her teeth grinding audibly behind a tight-lipped scowl.

This is what she does when Miqo'te touch her. It's intended that Miqo'te who don't know her will take this as intimidating or threatening behavior, a negative response, when in fact this is her embarrassed face. If there are people around who -are- familiar with her, I might add:

This familiar expression belies her otherwise unvoiced discomfort.

Now. A Miqo'te might somehow be able to tell that she was embarrassed rather than anger and menacing, which isn't how it's supposed to be. Some people dun see that line. I leave it open to interpretation and roll with it however I must. I don't mind seeing people pop up 'blahblahblahthoughtbubbleblah' because they're usually doing it in conjunction with a facial expression that already shows they've got a problem.
Simply narrows down the cause.

If Siobhain knows someone well, and they do something like

Blah grimaces faintly.

In response to something else, she'll have generic concern. If they go the route

Blah grimaces faintly, thinking to Blah's self 'This is embarrassing.'

That grimace would vastly differ from

Blah grimaces faintly, thinking to Blah's self 'Gods, my ribs are killing me.'

Could handle it differently, yes, by going into detail about favoring on side or blushing. OR you could use the thoughts for direction rather than detail. I, personally, don't mind either way.

I will say though, I find it difficult to adapt to constant thought-bubbling with little to no detail or context otherwise.

Sio's not a psychic.

Fystrael Abylstyrwyn · **09-30-2013, 06:42 PM**

Wow, thought Fystrael used /think too much to show that she's observing a character and making mental notes, but I guess I'm not so bad an RP'er...?
Definitely keeping this thread in mind for my newbieness.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-30-2013, 06:53 PM**

(09-30-2013, 06:42 PM)penniless1 Wrote: Wow, thought Fystrael used /think too much to show that she's observing a character and making mental notes, but I guess I'm not so bad an RP'er...?
Definitely keeping this thread in mind for my newbieness.

Of course you ain't bad!

Katanyae · **09-30-2013, 07:18 PM**

(09-30-2013, 05:40 PM)Faye Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 05:36 PM)X Wrote: As said above, show, don't tell.

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.

Right on.

ArmachiA · **09-30-2013, 07:32 PM**

I don't so this at all and I find it hurts certain characters actually.

Like, Armi is extremely vocal yet timid so all her emotions and feeling are usually spoken or very easily read ("Armi looks around widly, wringing her hands together as she says "Well, I'm nervous, Just thought you'd like to know.... you don't care. Sorry, eh heh.") She's very easy to rp with because of that, everything she does is just out there and makes her easy to respond to.

Loki is NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. An example of RPing her would be, "Wonderful." *She says flatly, her face emotionless.* Is she being sincere? Sarcastic? Is she mad? Does she even care? Nobody knoowwss. This has gotten me into trouble in previous games, where someone took offense to the way that type of character was behaving. They just assumed she was being mean all the time, even though most of the time she was just speaking flatly. I'm actually considering adding a bit of inner monologue to Loki's behavior, so people understand her more.

Cato · **09-30-2013, 07:32 PM**

It's a pretty awkward situation, I find. Sadly, many role-players are likely to get up in arms and cry out about how 'they can do what they want' instead of striving to improve and be more in line with their more experienced brethren. I find myself equally irritated when people break out into a discussion in brackets about what they had to eat for dinner during what is meant to be a bit of serious role-play. As far as I'm concerned some role-play practices are more damaging and awkward than others.

Gideon Aryeh · **09-30-2013, 08:21 PM**

(09-30-2013, 04:33 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(09-30-2013, 04:24 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once).Â

That's a great point and a good use for those internal monologue emotes, I think. As long as it's done tastefully and carefully with no expectation of an IC response, I can see how that could add to a scene from an OOC standpoint.

I do this as well for comedic purposes. It breaks up seriousness sometimes and I find its a great icebreaker for new or shy rpers as once you make them laugh you show them how to have fun with it. Any other use of it I'm really not aware of personally. Especially for those of us who are looking at their rp as acting perhaps a television show or a play though a scriptless one of course as I'm not a fan of scripted rp personally. I've always personally been interested in the entertainment part of rp which includes a non participating audience who may just be onlookers eavesdropping on a scene. You'd be surprised with the number of scene watchers there are lurking nearby. Those who end up as rpers themselves. For them these moments can be fun watching an interactive tv show.

And isn't this about fun at the end of the day?

K'dath · **09-30-2013, 08:55 PM**

(09-30-2013, 07:32 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: Is she being sincere? Sarcastic? Is she mad? Does she even care? Nobody knoowwss.

That assessment made me think of this. In a good way, I assure you. Made me giggle.

There's a big difference between showing thoughts, telling thoughts, and gratuitously needless exposition. While it's better to show through your words what is going on, stating something plainly is not in and of itself wrong.

Uh, examples! (quick and dirty ones)

"His expression changes as the implications on her words dawn on him. His ears roll back and he looks down, avoiding eye contact."
In this example the characters thoughts aren't explicitly stated and it's based on the reader to infer based only on observable reactions. You'd probably add a little more detail to make sure you get the right meaning across, but it should make sense in context without having to go into that pseudo-mind reader place.

"Her account of the situation had put him on edge. He looked nervous and haunted."
In this situation you're explicitly stating what emotion you're projecting. This is relying on the reader to put together the actions and expressions themselves based on what they associate with those things. You're not giving as detailed an account, and little nuances of behavior get lost in translation, but it's a 'quick and dirty' way of making a point. It's not unacceptable by any means, you're still making statements about observations.

"He feels scared and alone when he thinks about going back to that place."
This is where it stays into the 'exposition' territory. Thoughts and feelings are not observable traits, unless you are a mind reader. Exposition is not in and of itself a bad their either, because it serves to give context to you, the reader, even in your character does not benefit from it. But exposition is like an expensive spice, you use a little bit of it for flavoring. It can be used to impart a certain tone on your writing.

Putting the three examples above you get an over all coherent feel for what is going on in this situation and the character's feelings come through without wasting a lot of effort on needlessly fluffy prose. What is not a decent use of exposition would be...

"He didn't know what to do in that situation. Memories of the terrible things he saw came flowing back unbidden. Images of crimes unspeakable, deeds unfathomable to the waking eyes of innocent mortal minds. He wanted to scream, or to cry, but his body was frozen. All he could do was let himself become a useless, nervous wreck."
That right there? That's a shitty post. Don't do that.
Snark aside, that is a terrible use of exposition in an interactive story telling medium. Because what you are doing is bogging me down with a lot of things I can't observe or react to. In all of that block of text I don't actually know what his reaction is. I, the reader, know that he's wrestling with some serious PTSD, but that's not something I, the character, know. I just see a guy, standing there, maybe looking a little uncomfortable. I don't know, because you didn't show me anything.

Again, there's are just sort of quickly thrown together examples used to illustrate a point. It's just not good writing to sit there telling someone a bunch of things they can't react to. It doesn't matter if your English isn't good, or if you don't have a large vocabulary. The thing you need to ask yourself before posting is What information am I trying to communicate and Can I see them doing this. It doesn't matter if the observation is blatant (telling) or intuitive (showing) it only matters that it's something that CAN be seen and CAN be reacted to.

And that's my crash course on exposition and why it's a terrible thing.
Blah blah disclaimer blah opinions blah blah subjective blah blah grain of salt yadda yadda

Ildur · **09-30-2013, 08:58 PM**

Certain elements of the 'inner monologue' could have a visible or otherwise perceivable component. It depends on how the monologue is phrased and how each player decides to interpret it.
There are other components, however, that cannot and should not be perceived by others. These components only exist for flavor or character stablishment or for humor, as some have pointed out.

As a rule of thumb, I do not take inner monologues into account when roleplaying unless it has a direct action attached to it. For example, someone wondering if my character is mad and then frowning. My character can then react to the frowning and she can also interpret, based on the situation, why the frowning happened. If it matches or not what the monologue stablished is a completely different matter.

Katanyae · **09-30-2013, 09:09 PM**

(09-30-2013, 07:32 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: It's a pretty awkward situation, I find. Sadly, many role-players are likely to get up in arms and cry out about how 'they can do what they want' instead of striving to improve and be more in line with their more experienced brethren. I find myself equally irritated when people break out into a discussion in brackets about what they had to eat for dinner during what is meant to be a bit of serious role-play. As far as I'm concerned some role-play practices are more damaging and awkward than others.

So what does it take to get invited to your RP Elite country club? Yanno, cause I want to make sure I'm 'in line' with all the 'right people'Â Rolleyes

Â Or maybe you just borrowed 'Ye Olde Roleplayers Rulebook' from the OP.Â

Different styles should be encouraged. This isn't a fucking raiding strat, formulated and homogenized. Just because someone doesn't live up to your imaginary code doesn't mean they're a bad RPer. It makes them different. And maybe they DO need to work on their trade...but don't we all? And isn't one of the best way to improve something doing it repeatedly with a good cross section of test subjects?Â

The best way to create a griefer is to treat our own like shit.

cuideag · **09-30-2013, 09:17 PM**

(09-30-2013, 04:24 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once).Â

^ Exactly.

Lament · **09-30-2013, 09:34 PM**

It's just conveying info about the character. I include dialogue, actions and inner monologue when I want the players to know what my character is thinking. It's never added with the purpose of getting people to react to it. Heck, it's a way to make posts more interesting.

I get a kick out of reading what's going on in other characters' minds. I get a kick out of writing the ridiculous stuff that goes through my characters' minds. I don't expect you to do the same, I don't expect you to react to it, I don't expect you to like it, even. I expect you to respect that. There is no right or wrong - RPing is not science. I respect other people's preferences; if they can't respect mine, then we don't RP.

K'dath · **09-30-2013, 09:36 PM**

(09-30-2013, 09:09 PM)Katanyae Wrote: And isn't one of the best way to improve something doing it repeatedly with a good cross section of test subjects?

I believe that's the infamously quoted definition of insanity.

Doing something over and over doesn't automatically make you better at something. Doing something, realizing what is not working, and changing it to get a different result is how you get better.

Everyone should always strive to be better, and everyone can always be better, it's true. No one is on the top because there's no ceiling with art. It's not a mountain with a summit that we race to plant our flag in. It's more like a wall stretching up to the heavens. Over time many have scaled the wall, and they've left footholds behind for others just beginning their journey to hoist themselves up on. And the people familiar with these holds tell tales about them to the up an comers. They point to the signs to lessen the burdens of their next journey, so that they may climb even higher.

There's not a 'right' way with art, because it is subjective. But there is a way it has been done before. It's a path that is worn and marked and others may find their way more easily upon it. It is simpler to follow a trail than blaze one. And it's certainly simpler to blaze a trail when you are at the very least armed with the knowledge of former pathfinders.

Being resentful of experience just leads to perpetuating a culture of willful ignorance where no one gets any better because 'I am doing it my way and you can't tell me different'. Instead of everyone improving, it just lowers the bar to accommodate the unwilling. At that point we're sitting at the bottom of the metaphorical rock wall rolling around in our own excrement.

You're Not Writing A Novel

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes