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TheLastCandle · **01-12-2014, 12:43 AM**

(01-12-2014, 12:00 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: Seems there's been a long and active debate on the whole White Mage situation...however, as I already alluded to, has anyone actually met someone who's RP'd a WHM? They'll go through the same storyline as everyone else, so they'll probably see how it's not viable...

I wouldn't mind starting a discussion on Free Paladins, incidentally. So far, a lot of the roleplayers spin it as your standard Dungeons & Dragons goody-two-shoes. Granted, Jenlyns says "A true paladin offers his sword and shield without promise for reward" and other generic Lawful Good stuff...but I wonder if it's viable to say that's just this character's interpretation? For six hundred years, all paladins have been Sultansworn. I bet one could easily argue that history trumps one captain's decision to train outsiders. In which case, paladins are elite royal guards rather than crusaders of justice. To be "prepared to defend the Sultan to the death", they wouldn't be merciful at all like stereotypical LG...and would be rather ruthless.

Damnit, I wish I could access the non-CS dialogue from lvl30...I'm sure the NPC that tells you about free paladins mentions something about the 220 (or something) Commandments of the Paladins. Darn.

Honestly, I'm not up to date on Sultansworn lore, but given what I know of Ul'dah, I wouldn't be surprised if they generally swerve away from the "textbook Lawful Good" Paladin. It also wouldn't surprise me if the implications of that particular tenet (defending the Sultan/Sultana to the death) mean different things to individual Sultansworn. I daresay there is as much room for a typical goody-goody as there is a stone-cold Lawful Neutral hardass who only seeks to preserve order.

Sounsyy · **01-12-2014, 12:45 AM**

(01-12-2014, 12:00 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: I wouldn't mind starting a discussion on Free Paladins, incidentally. So far, a lot of the roleplayers spin it as your standard Dungeons & Dragons goody-two-shoes. Granted, Jenlyns says "A true paladin offers his sword and shield without promise for reward" and other generic Lawful Good stuff...but I wonder if it's viable to say that's just this character's interpretation? For six hundred years, all paladins have been Sultansworn. I bet one could easily argue that history trumps one captain's decision to train outsiders. In which case, paladins are elite royal guards rather than crusaders of justice. To be "prepared to defend the Sultan to the death", they wouldn't be merciful at all like stereotypical LG...and would be rather ruthless.

I've always viewed the Paladins in a similar way. They're Royal Guards, not the Justice League. Furthermore, they're the Royal Guards of some... not so "Just" royals. Nanamo seems to be the one decent exception to a long line of Ul family dirtbags. Sultan Sisigan wipes out Ul'dah's sister nation of Sil'Dih over water control. We don't really know much about Sultana Sasamo, but she had 80 sins apparently. Doesn't sound like a great character. The Sultansworn also seem to protect the Syndicate on occasion (one of the Syndicate is a Prince?). The Syndicate is formed of the six richest citizens of Ul'dah. And there are several lore references that say they are not all nice people. Lots of corruption.Â

So, hard to imagine Paladins being champions of Good when they are tasked with the protection of some of Eorzea's worst crooks? Not all are bad, mind you, but a good many. Paladins supposed to have good intentions I guess? Jenlyns at least seems to be naively good. Oh and there's the Monetarists who seemed to have infiltrated the Sultansworn on some level and are using it for their own personal gain? That was a part of the PLD quests.

Tla · **01-12-2014, 04:57 AM**

(01-12-2014, 12:45 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: We don't really know much about Sultana Sasamo, but she had 80 sins apparently. Doesn't sound like a great character.

Sasamo was a Sultan not a Sultana. Here's a topic about him.

ArmachiA · **01-12-2014, 05:01 AM**

I'm fairly open about anyone's roleplay experiences but I'm a huge stickler for lore. Huge. It's what makes the game you're roleplaying in. Bend it all you want, never shove it aside.

I'm in the "respect the lore" camp firmly. If the lore says you can't play a WHM, I will never play one. My characters will not believe you are one if you tell me.

THe thing about 99% of the lore in this game - WHM being in that 1% here - is that the restrictive stuff if easy to get around with some creative thinking. I don't know, I feel like it's almost lazy to go "Well, just gonna ignore that." instead of finding a way around it that completely lore appropriate.

For instance, my guild has a storyline about trying to fight the Primals without the Echo, therefore finding a way around tempering. We've been able to maneuver around lore with this idea, doing test and experiments to see what would work (Our current solution is definitely lore-bending, but adheres to lore completely all the same). I feel like going "Let's just ignore the whole Tempering unpleasantness and fight some Primals ICly" would be completely disrespectful to the lore.

That's my stance on any subject about lore. Respect it. Work around it. Lore is mostly malleable, stop treating it like it's rigid and invisible.

Rosekitten · **01-12-2014, 06:02 AM**

I tend to lean towards respect what lore is told in the game as it is. Though that area for my back story is a bit hazy as I state the characters sibling is a lesser Dragoon. But in this I more or less explain that is a experienced or seasoned lancer trained to slay the dragonkin.

Some of the advanced classes are a bit harder to play out then others I will admit that. Just the lore makes them hard. I know IC my character has minor lancer trainer due to where she grew up and then is a MRD. IT would require some huge event that effected her emotionally to give her the proper rage so to speak to even toy at the idea of being a WAR or hunting a mentor down for the class.

I can't speak much for the other classes as I don't have them to 50 yet thus have not personally read the story lore behind them.Â

But on the same note... im all for people playing what they wish to play ic or ooc.. just maybe explain ooc'ly how or why your character is such if questioned. Though I don't really advise going the lazy route as it was stated a post above me in just flat out ignoring the lore.

Tiergan · **01-12-2014, 06:52 AM**

Herp derp. I totally forgot that the fairy was found in a chest of some kind.Â

I guess it's good I've only really RPed out Eos being around once, but man, what a pain in the arse.Â

I'm quite lax about whatever people choose when it comes to RPing the Jobs however - as long as they don't suddenly say "I AM THE ONE AND ONLY CHOSEN WHITE MAGE EVER"

synaesthetic · **01-12-2014, 07:08 AM**

(01-12-2014, 06:52 AM)Tiergan Wrote: I'm quite lax about whatever people choose when it comes to RPing the Jobs however - as long as they don't suddenly say "I AM THE ONE AND ONLY CHOSEN WHITE MAGE EVER"

Amusing, because this here is the reason why people are so against letting people roleplay a white mage. Because the lore says that very thing, that you (the player) are the only Super Speshul Chosen One White Mage.

Clearly this cannot work, so it must be discarded. Any time an MMO storyline turns you into the Chosen One, it must be discarded, because every player gets that same storyline and every player is therefore the Chosen One. When there's supposed to be only one of those Chosen One... Ones... then how do you get a whole server full of them?

Unless, of course, your lore takes a third option and explicitly makes lots of Chosen Ones. RIFT does this very well in both the Defiant and Guardian storylines; it's explicitly stated that you are notÂ the only Ascended and that nothing you do is really unique or super-speshul.

Zazalan · **01-12-2014, 07:55 AM**

(01-11-2014, 11:41 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(01-11-2014, 11:34 PM)Ildur Wrote: She actually can, because she can make a character that the game will call a White Mage and grant her Skills and aesthetic looks specific to it. A Padjal? You can't make one if you adhere to the game rules. And that is specifically the problem we have with the WM lore: it goes against the game's own rules. It is not a problem of us not liking the lore (we do not, that is true), but a problem of internal consistency and roleplaying coherence.
If you can accept that then it is quite fine.

Okay, sure. Â She can. Â Anyone can do anything. Â But it makes her a hypocrite and makes what she says less believable, because she's trying to have it both ways.

Either the Lore matters, or it doesn't. Â But if you are in the camp that says, "Nope, Lore doesn't matter," you can't really throw stones when someone is making weird with the Lore. Â Though I suppose you could be like, "Hey, I thought that was like, a no-no cuz of Lore," but I think Sounsyy pretty much explained it.

I think the distinction that's being made here is "look, if I can actually BE this in the game, then I can be this in roleplay". Â Being a white mage in roleplay does not inherently break lore. Â At least not on an individual basis. Â The existence of multiple WHMs breaks lore. Â What's happening here is people are discussing how to deal with a job that is permitted by lore, yet at the same time is restrictive to the roleplaying community.

You cannot, however, be a padjal in the game. Â No two ways about it. Â And I will say that I am firmly in the camp of "If I can BE it, I can RP it". Â It's not hypocritical at all because it's not based on the idea of breaking lore or not, but rather making compromises when necessary in lore when it is not being friendly to the community, but never stepping outside of what the game actually allows.

Mind you I'm just explaining the position. Â I personally could care less if someone did actually step outside of game mechanics and RP as a padjal. Â If that's what works for them, then great.

Most of all I think people should keep in mind that this isn't really a matter of breaking lore so much as it is a matter of creating consistency within a community. Â Adhering strictly to the lore for widespread consistency would force a lot of people to refrain from RPing as something that the game actually allows them to be. Â Which, imo, is ridiculous. Â The fact of the matter is that it will remain divided because some people will think it's ok, others will not. Â I believe the best we can do individually is just try to respect that and not be obnoxious about our opinions and/or roleplay. Â Want to be a WHM? Â Great! Â RP with people who will accept your job. Â Outside of your circle it may be best to leave the topic by the wayside.

It's just one of those situations that will ultimately be about give and take.

CalebAgron · **01-12-2014, 10:33 AM**

Personally I think if you want to RP a White Mage then I say go for it! I understand that from a in game lore perspective they are suppose to be extinct with 1 special snowflake roaming the world. But I also believe that was the "setup" for the world we live in right now, and not the "current state" of things. It's hard to judge lore when some of it is based on "single player mode" and not "mmo mode", and White Mage lore is totally "single player mode". I know if/when I bring my White Mage character into RP she will indeed RP as a White Mage, regardless of the dev's oversight on the restriction they placed with their lore.

Also in game story does not =/= character story, we all have gone through the Sion story arc OOC but IC not all of us RP it ever happened. Likewise I would like to think White Mages could have came across their power in a different form other then receiving the soul of that ONE pedjal. A gift from the elementals, another Pedjal soul, a soul from White Mages found prior to the Elementals having their temper tantrum? There are many possibilities you could craft as to why your a White Mage and some roleplayer's might like it, others won't, ultimately it's your character though so do as you want. I believe most people understand wanting to bend or break lore when it comes to White Mages, and that's purely because of the short sight of the Dev lore team.

Sounsyy · **01-12-2014, 12:38 PM**

(01-12-2014, 04:57 AM)Tlamila Wrote:
(01-12-2014, 12:45 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: We don't really know much about Sultana Sasamo, but she had 80 sins apparently. Doesn't sound like a great character.
Sasamo was a Sultan not a Sultana. Here's a topic about him.

Hehe, you sourced a topic which sources a post that I wrote before naming conventions were released. Sasamo Ul Samo is a female Dunesfolk name. That particular correction was made, however, there are still some mistakes in those posts they sourced because I wrote them all before 2.0.Â

So it is Sultana Sasamo Ul Namo. ^^

Tla · **01-12-2014, 01:36 PM**

(01-12-2014, 12:38 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(01-12-2014, 04:57 AM)Tlamila Wrote:
(01-12-2014, 12:45 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: We don't really know much about Sultana Sasamo, but she had 80 sins apparently. Doesn't sound like a great character.
Sasamo was a Sultan not a Sultana. Here's a topic about him.
Hehe, you sourced a topic which sources a post that I wrote before naming conventions were released. Sasamo Ul Samo is a female Dunesfolk name. That particular correction was made, however, there are still some mistakes in those posts they sourced because I wrote them all before 2.0.Â

So it is Sultana Sasamo Ul Namo. ^^

Oh that's funny how things go Tongue

Â Yes the name clearly indicated a female, I just thought it was one of the many unfitting names developpers made. Nice having a clarification.

Tiergan · **01-12-2014, 01:42 PM**

(01-12-2014, 07:08 AM)synaesthetic Wrote:
(01-12-2014, 06:52 AM)Tiergan Wrote: I'm quite lax about whatever people choose when it comes to RPing the Jobs however - as long as they don't suddenly say "I AM THE ONE AND ONLY CHOSEN WHITE MAGE EVER"

Amusing, because this here is the reason why people are so against letting people roleplay a white mage. Because the lore says that very thing, that you (the player) are the only Super Speshul Chosen One White Mage.

Clearly this cannot work, so it must be discarded. Any time an MMO storyline turns you into the Chosen One, it must be discarded, because every player gets that same storyline and every player is therefore the Chosen One. When there's supposed to be only one of those Chosen One... Ones... then how do you get a whole server full of them?

Unless, of course, your lore takes a third option and explicitly makes lots of Chosen Ones. RIFT does this very well in both the Defiant and Guardian storylines; it's explicitly stated that you are notÂ the only Ascended and that nothing you do is really unique or super-speshul.

I should clarify that I meant I'm lax with people RPing that they are white mages as long as they don't RP that they are The "One And Only White Mage Mentioned In That Quest No One Else Could Possibly Be That Except Me"

Kind of like I'm lax with people RPing parts of the main storyline so long as they're not the Champion of Eorzea that single-handedly defeated all the primals, defeated Gaius, defeated some Ascians, etc.

I'm also not saying that the way I do things is the right or wrong way. I just don't mind going with the flow whether an RPer wants to RP the Jobs or not.

LiadansWhisper · **01-12-2014, 03:39 PM**

(01-12-2014, 07:55 AM)Zazalan Wrote: Most of all I think people should keep in mind that this isn't really a matter of breaking lore so much as it is a matter of creating consistency within a community. Â Adhering strictly to the lore for widespread consistency would force a lot of people to refrain from RPing as something that the game actually allows them to be. Â Which, imo, is ridiculous. Â The fact of the matter is that it will remain divided because some people will think it's ok, others will not. Â I believe the best we can do individually is just try to respect that and not be obnoxious about our opinions and/or roleplay. Â Want to be a WHM? Â Great! Â RP with people who will accept your job. Â Outside of your circle it may be best to leave the topic by the wayside.

It's just one of those situations that will ultimately be about give and take.

The game also allows me to be the savior of Eorzea, and to have single-handedly (or with a group, depending on when you watch your cutscenes!) broken into the biggest Garlean installation on the continent and taken on Ultima Weapon - and won!

But it would be dumb as rocks if I actually tried to use that in RP just because that's what I played in-game.

Look, as you said, people can play whatever the hell they want. Â It's a free world, and there are no Lore police to hunt you down and beat you with the Lore stick if you're doing something they don't agree with. Â But - and this is a big but - people need to be accepting that if they're playing something out of the norm with the Lore, that people may look at them in askance in character. Â And no one had better get mad at me (the player) when, if their character wanders up to mine and announces they're a White Mage, my character looks at them like they're out of their mind and runs to get the Wood Wailers to help with the poor, deluded non-Padjal.

You can ignore Lore if you want. Â That's the freedom of an MMO setting. Â I am not comfortable with ignoring the Lore. Â If I wanted to play a game with little to no Lore, I'd be playing Rift or NWoD. Â I'm playing this game because I like Lore, and even if Lore gets in the way of something I have planned...I'm okay with that. Â Because Lore is the house you make your RP in. Â And RP without a rich, vibrant setting is boring.

Zazalan · **01-12-2014, 04:48 PM**

(01-12-2014, 03:39 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: The game also allows me to be the savior of Eorzea, and to have single-handedly (or with a group, depending on when you watch your cutscenes!) broken into the biggest Garlean installation on the continent and taken on Ultima Weapon - and won!

But it would be dumb as rocks if I actually tried to use that in RP just because that's what I played in-game.

I wouldn't compare being the savior of Eorzea to being able to play as an actual job given to us in the game that is a necessity for high level play. Â My point is that classes/jobs should be RPed freely. Â Not much more to it. Â Some people would rather not make any distinction between the two and that's understandable. Â For any individual that wants to RP as any job, all that really matters is how we handle it when RPing with others.

ArmachiA · **01-12-2014, 04:52 PM**

(01-12-2014, 03:39 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Because Lore is the house you make your RP in. Â And RP without a rich, vibrant setting is boring.

Hi, Aion, I'm looking at you.

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