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The problem with the entire topic itself is that while you say it is to spark debate, the topic you chose is about sensitive subjects that can be perceived as inflammatory or judgmental to some. It is a risky topic, and risky topics have the result of creating often negative responses. The truth is, the very nature of your topic asks if a witty character can be played by the 'dumb'. The topic in itself is a veiled insult, and seems backhanded towards those who may or may not be dumb in the eyes of yourself or others. This is the cost for even starting such a topic and use such wording as dumb. Heat, kitchen, et cetera. But on to the topic proper. I'm no good with quote trees, they're annoying to read, so I'll grab what I can.
What you're speaking about however, is not truly intelligence or wit in its own regard. That is also training and knowledge, which is not the same thing. You can have a 'talent' for math and learning math based subjects, but you still have to learn it. And that has to do with study, not just one's level of wittiness or smarts. You specifically addressed this as about wit, and originally intelligence. The situation you are referring to now has little to do with wit at all, but the difference in experience on a subject. You present being always bad at math with someone who has talent at math. Which is fine, but even someone with talent at math or someone who has bad ability with math can still both learn math. Indeed, you (in the example) will learn slower than the talented individual, but it isn't beyond your scope. And that's the crux of this isn't it?
I keep hearing the idea of something 'beyond your limits', but it seems like the idea that someone can push their limits and learn what they need to isn't even present. Everyone has basically said 'if a person isn't smart enough they can never act like they are'. I'm sorry, no. I'm quite smart on paper myself so they say and no, I'm not bragging or anything of the sort, but conversely I'm not a great social talker by nature in real life because I'm shy. I have people anxieties in crowds. Never have been great face to face. I however, learned to fake it. I can smile and pretend I'm good at engaging in witty conversation. And my character tends to actually be a lot more suave than I am because I don't have to actually be near someone when my character talks. I'm moderate at math, and I have memory problems that hinder me in learning. I've had to re-learn some subjects multiple times because of it. But I'm not dumb or even not 'witty' just because I don't meet someone else's high standards of what is and isn't witty. Can someone be more trained than me in something? Absolutely. But that has no reflection on my character versus yours. This entire subject basically comes down to a few people's standards of what they consider a gate pass to playing a certain type of character. And I'm sorry, but again, no. It is judgmental form the get go, whether you use levity at the beginning or not to say in all caps you're not judging.
If I play a genius character but I myself am not a genius in that area, it is not the player's place to make any kind of stand against that character. If the character lacks something because the player can't back it up, roleplay will sort it out. And that's how it should be. But arguing if someone not smart can play someone smart; that itself is dissonance. My character is interacting with your character. If your character has no knowledge of the subject, even if you do, your knowledge is irrelevant because roleplaying is not about what you know. If my genius character misses a few details and that ruins your immersion and joy of roleplaying with me, then I am genuinely sorry that your immersion is so shallow. But the entire so-called debate is basically thinly-veiled judgment on what you and others have decided is and isn't witty or not, and whether something is beyond someone's limits. Limits are not as cut and dry as some are making out, and the fact that that's the prevalent opinion to not do something 'beyond your limits', it makes me a little sad at the state of creativity and willingness to learn and teach exists in the community. Roleplaying is about being something you are not in real life. If you can't do this exactly, continue learning. There's too much of this nonsense about if you aren't smart enough, don't play x. I propose the inverse. If you are not experienced enough. DO play x. This will cause you to learn, to go out of your box, to become 'wittier' or 'smarter'. Ignacius says know your limits. I say push beyond them. I say learn as you go along and the experience becomes real. And for those that say it can't be done, you are incorrect. I've done it myself.
The entire passive-aggressive stance of 'I never said I was one to judge wit, however..' is patently offensive. You are judging by the statement itself. Someone who can't roleplay a trait by your standards. Not everyone has the same standards of roleplay. Who properly roleplays what is not for anyone to say regardless of what you know. We're not talking about someone who shoots fire form their eyes and lightning bolts form their arse. People want to play something they are not in roleplay. It is for fun, it is not to prove they are or are not smart or witty enough for you to enjoy it. If you don't think they're witty enough, that is your failing, not theirs. They could be genuinely trying. But if the first thing someone sees is 'they're obviously not smart enough to pull this off', then that someone should not be roleplaying. Judging leads to negative feelings. If you think I'm not smart enough to play a genius, then that's your business. But if your character wouldn't know one chemical from another IC, and you OOC are a professional chemist and you dislike that my chemistry genius is wrong on a few things..well. I hate to put it this way, but too damn bad. The entire subject you put forth is truly about OOC/IC dissonance, and playing with someone who isn't what they present their character as, not wit or intelligence. It's basically saying 'I can tell this person doesn't know what they're talking about IC because the player doesn't know it, so because I do even though my character wouldn't know the first thing about it, they're upsetting me personally and that bothers me'.
We play characters different to ourselves. Not everyone who's written a genius is a genius. I'm willing to bet that authors who have written experts on subjects had no expertise in the subject themselves and did something called research. Which a lot of people who want to play these types of characters do. I do so myself. Between research and bullshit, you can do a lot of things with a character to make them appear experienced or witty or more intelligent, even if you haven't studied it yourself as thoroughly as a real expert. But honestly, when you post a subject with the word 'dumb' in it for any reason, whether it's to spark debate or rant, or for any other reason, prepare yourself for what can come of it. Because whether you mean to or not, you're insulting or judging somebody passively. Reading this honestly watching the 'no you can't do it' crowd being back patted while the ones that say you can are basically deconstructed entirely has left me shaking my head.
But, in any case, if we must get back to the subject. Can it be done? Yes. Absolutely. It isn't always foolproof, but it can be done with research and bullshit. Is it hard to do with people trying to shove their own personal knowledge ooc on you if they don't think your character or you live up to it and apparently this is a reason for your character to be discredited despite it really not being their place? Yes. Absolutely. And that's all I have to add on the matter.
Quote:Say I were to play a mathematical genius who specializes in Chemistry, and as a player, I have never studied any chemistry or ever been any good at math. If a character like mine who was roleplayed by someone who actually had talent in that area were to engage in a discussion/debate... I'd be ICly crushed. No matter how much I use google, I could never play my character as being better at mathematics than them because I, as a player, lack the mental faculties. I am intellectually inferior to the other player, and no matter how much I claim my character is a genius, ICly, my character will be crushed.
What you're speaking about however, is not truly intelligence or wit in its own regard. That is also training and knowledge, which is not the same thing. You can have a 'talent' for math and learning math based subjects, but you still have to learn it. And that has to do with study, not just one's level of wittiness or smarts. You specifically addressed this as about wit, and originally intelligence. The situation you are referring to now has little to do with wit at all, but the difference in experience on a subject. You present being always bad at math with someone who has talent at math. Which is fine, but even someone with talent at math or someone who has bad ability with math can still both learn math. Indeed, you (in the example) will learn slower than the talented individual, but it isn't beyond your scope. And that's the crux of this isn't it?
I keep hearing the idea of something 'beyond your limits', but it seems like the idea that someone can push their limits and learn what they need to isn't even present. Everyone has basically said 'if a person isn't smart enough they can never act like they are'. I'm sorry, no. I'm quite smart on paper myself so they say and no, I'm not bragging or anything of the sort, but conversely I'm not a great social talker by nature in real life because I'm shy. I have people anxieties in crowds. Never have been great face to face. I however, learned to fake it. I can smile and pretend I'm good at engaging in witty conversation. And my character tends to actually be a lot more suave than I am because I don't have to actually be near someone when my character talks. I'm moderate at math, and I have memory problems that hinder me in learning. I've had to re-learn some subjects multiple times because of it. But I'm not dumb or even not 'witty' just because I don't meet someone else's high standards of what is and isn't witty. Can someone be more trained than me in something? Absolutely. But that has no reflection on my character versus yours. This entire subject basically comes down to a few people's standards of what they consider a gate pass to playing a certain type of character. And I'm sorry, but again, no. It is judgmental form the get go, whether you use levity at the beginning or not to say in all caps you're not judging.
Quote:I have never said I was one to judge wit, however, it shouldn't be difficult for anyone with half a brain to properly assess who can properly roleplay at trait. OOC and IC dissonance is easily detectable. It doesn't require an I.Q worthy of MENSA scores to see this.
If I play a genius character but I myself am not a genius in that area, it is not the player's place to make any kind of stand against that character. If the character lacks something because the player can't back it up, roleplay will sort it out. And that's how it should be. But arguing if someone not smart can play someone smart; that itself is dissonance. My character is interacting with your character. If your character has no knowledge of the subject, even if you do, your knowledge is irrelevant because roleplaying is not about what you know. If my genius character misses a few details and that ruins your immersion and joy of roleplaying with me, then I am genuinely sorry that your immersion is so shallow. But the entire so-called debate is basically thinly-veiled judgment on what you and others have decided is and isn't witty or not, and whether something is beyond someone's limits. Limits are not as cut and dry as some are making out, and the fact that that's the prevalent opinion to not do something 'beyond your limits', it makes me a little sad at the state of creativity and willingness to learn and teach exists in the community. Roleplaying is about being something you are not in real life. If you can't do this exactly, continue learning. There's too much of this nonsense about if you aren't smart enough, don't play x. I propose the inverse. If you are not experienced enough. DO play x. This will cause you to learn, to go out of your box, to become 'wittier' or 'smarter'. Ignacius says know your limits. I say push beyond them. I say learn as you go along and the experience becomes real. And for those that say it can't be done, you are incorrect. I've done it myself.
The entire passive-aggressive stance of 'I never said I was one to judge wit, however..' is patently offensive. You are judging by the statement itself. Someone who can't roleplay a trait by your standards. Not everyone has the same standards of roleplay. Who properly roleplays what is not for anyone to say regardless of what you know. We're not talking about someone who shoots fire form their eyes and lightning bolts form their arse. People want to play something they are not in roleplay. It is for fun, it is not to prove they are or are not smart or witty enough for you to enjoy it. If you don't think they're witty enough, that is your failing, not theirs. They could be genuinely trying. But if the first thing someone sees is 'they're obviously not smart enough to pull this off', then that someone should not be roleplaying. Judging leads to negative feelings. If you think I'm not smart enough to play a genius, then that's your business. But if your character wouldn't know one chemical from another IC, and you OOC are a professional chemist and you dislike that my chemistry genius is wrong on a few things..well. I hate to put it this way, but too damn bad. The entire subject you put forth is truly about OOC/IC dissonance, and playing with someone who isn't what they present their character as, not wit or intelligence. It's basically saying 'I can tell this person doesn't know what they're talking about IC because the player doesn't know it, so because I do even though my character wouldn't know the first thing about it, they're upsetting me personally and that bothers me'.
We play characters different to ourselves. Not everyone who's written a genius is a genius. I'm willing to bet that authors who have written experts on subjects had no expertise in the subject themselves and did something called research. Which a lot of people who want to play these types of characters do. I do so myself. Between research and bullshit, you can do a lot of things with a character to make them appear experienced or witty or more intelligent, even if you haven't studied it yourself as thoroughly as a real expert. But honestly, when you post a subject with the word 'dumb' in it for any reason, whether it's to spark debate or rant, or for any other reason, prepare yourself for what can come of it. Because whether you mean to or not, you're insulting or judging somebody passively. Reading this honestly watching the 'no you can't do it' crowd being back patted while the ones that say you can are basically deconstructed entirely has left me shaking my head.
But, in any case, if we must get back to the subject. Can it be done? Yes. Absolutely. It isn't always foolproof, but it can be done with research and bullshit. Is it hard to do with people trying to shove their own personal knowledge ooc on you if they don't think your character or you live up to it and apparently this is a reason for your character to be discredited despite it really not being their place? Yes. Absolutely. And that's all I have to add on the matter.
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