(09-01-2015, 01:49 PM)V Wrote:(09-01-2015, 01:25 PM)Oli! Wrote: We have nothing that states fact in either direction, hence this argument. We could in fact view the point you made in its opposite light, because of a lack of evidence. If Ishgard is reluctant to rely on outside help for anything, why allow someone to become a subject, and then a knight, in the first place? We wind up with a paradox; Ishgard is Xenophobic, so they won't simply grant citizenship for nothing. If they're self-reliant, would they accept someone's offer to do work for them? If not, then what?Xenophobia does not preclude socialization, integration, or immigration. It is simply a general term to describe the negative attitude one holds toward the "other". Logically, this attitude can be overcome by the "other", in whole or in part, by assimilating into the xenophobic entity.
Perhaps I was not clear in earlier examples: Ishgardians deeply resent "adventurers" and sellswords. If you present an Ishgardian with an outsider who just wants to do some work for some pay before moving on, and an outsider who deeply reveres the wisdom and power of Halone the Fury and who wishes to be a part of the great nation She created, the reaction to each shall likely be different.
The Garlean Lucia is one example of this.
Quote:If we were to pull the Main Story Quest into this (which is supposed to be a rare occurrence in the first place), it's worth noting that despite all the good you do for the nation, you're never given citizenship. Only a permit to be there.You're also never made a knight or recognized as a servant of Ishgard. The WoL is consistently recognized as an outsider assisting the nation.
Quote:As for the first bit, I haven't come across that specific wording; do you know where it was so I can look for it? That doesn't mean I don't trust it, I just want to seeQuote:It seems we have been assigned the area near Camp Riversmeet, Sounsyy. Lest you are unaware, the camp was one of many our knights were forced to abandon when we withdrew from the Coerthas western highlands—one of many sacrifices made in the wake of the Calamity.From post #80
That last quote still seems to be an assumption. "Our knights," whose knights? House Knights? Temple Knights? Aetheryte Protection Knights (are they they're own thing? Do we know if they were or weren't their own force? This thought just occurred to me and I'm not sure)? It seems a little vague to definitively point.
Lucia was not known to be a Garlean when she arrived. In fact, the only person that knows that is the Warrior of Light and Aymeric, who kept her under him as a personal decision. Seeing as he is also demonstrated to be progressive, this paints itself as the rarest of rare scenarios, as do most things within the MSQ. It's also worth noting that she merely looks like a tall hyur, and likely would not have raised any eyebrows if she were merely seen out on the street.
It seems we agree regarding the WoL's place in Ishgard. Despite all you do for them, including basically saving their entire nation, you're never really given any rights other than the right to exist within the city. That's a pretty high bar to set.
Where does the line between Adventurers and Working Wanderers stand? Is this a hard and fast rule? Would a Working Wanderer with no knowledge or respect for Halone be given work? What about an Adventurer or sell-sword that's completely pious?
At this point, I'm really just trying to show that neither side is definite, and we can assume in circles forever. That's really all that's left to do, since we're missing vast swaths of information.
As far as I can rationalize, my conclusion is this: Impossible? Never. I didn't even think that form the start. Provable as definitively true or false, given what we have? Not at all. Are there roadblocks? Absolutely, there are roadblocks to almost any concept. Are they solid, impenetrable blocks? Not at all.
But I'm repeating myself at this point, so I guess I'll phone it in here.
