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(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: I only point out this quote because apparently it's a highly prevalent excuse in the community, that Healers have access to DPS abilities only for the sake of solo content just like all DPS classes have defensive abilities that allow them to solo without getting eaten horribly. So I threw together a little something a while back.
Over 1/3rd of every healer’s action list is made up of abilities that deal or affect damage. This is more offensive abilities than most tanks have defensive abilities. And a far greater number than the minimal “solo abilities†afforded DPS classes. See below:
Healer Offensive Abilities
WHM: 10/28 (35%)
SCH: 11/28 (39%)
AST: 9/28 (32%)
I don't think "opinion" is synonymous with "excuse." Looking at WHM, for example, how many of these skills are even viable in a dungeon? Have you counted Stone I, II, and III when realistically you'd only need to use whichever is the highest one unlocked? Are you counting Fluid Aura that can't be used on anything that it'll push back without pissing off your party unless it's to interrupt an enemy spell no one else can/will stun? Are you counting Assize, which I'm hesitant to consider a "DPS" spell because it also does an AOE heal and MP regen and therefore should be a regular part of WHM rotation even if the healer in question is not trying to DPS?
Ultimately, though, the answers to these questions don't really matter because it's comparing apples to oranges. Of course healers have a plethora of DPS skills. How the hell could we do solo content if we couldn't kill anything? What game would stick us with one or two offensive skills and expect us to not hate our class outside of dungeons and parties? I think it's indicative of absolutely nothing to compare "attack skills so I can actually kill things" healer DPS skills to "ohshit I'm gonna die" DPS defensive skills. How about you compare related things? Compare healer DPS output to actual DPS output, compare actual DPS class offense skills to WHM offense skills. The main thing needed for solo content is damage-dealing skills and DPS already have that covered, so of course they don't need a ton of self-healing or defensive skills on top of that.
(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Please, stop perpetuating the solo excuse. If SE intended Cleric Stance only for solo/raid use, they wouldn't have included these lines in the Hall of the Novice for healers, which is specifically for learning low-level group play:
Master of Magicks Wrote:When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magicks. But keep an eye on your companion! You should not be blasting if someone is bleeding!Master of Magicks Wrote:Well done! A focused healer is a boon to any party! Even when it's safe to attack, always keep one eye on your allies' health!
If you read my post, you must have misunderstood it. Not once did I say that Cleric Stance or DPS skills are only for solo-play as a healer or for hardcore endgame content. In fact, I essentially said the same thing as the Master of Magicks--that healers can/should DPS (preferably with stance-dancing) if they are comfortable and able, but they should always prioritize healing.
Which leads me to this...
(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: But the overwhelming sentiment I've read in this thread is that Healers are going to give you one or the other. If someone asks me to DPS, I'm going to dps and not heal and its your fault if you die! Or, yeah, I'm a healer and I heal to heal so not touching it ever. But that's not how Cleric Stance or "stance dancing" is supposed to work. It shouldn't be 100% on or 100% off. Wax on and wax off as appropriate.
I don't believe anyone has said this at all. I'm really not sure where you're getting this sentiment from. There are plenty of healers who can and will stance-dance effectively, and plenty of tanks and DPS who are aware of their existence. People have simply either A) Expressed that they personally are not good at doing both so they choose to prioritize healer, as that's their actual job, or B) Mentioned that when in a party with healers who can't stance-dance effectively they'd rather the healer focus on healing than try to DPS and let the party die. Not everyone is going to be great at stance-dancing right off the bat (and realistically there are some people who will never be good at it) and it's nice to preach "then practice!" but you may have a different tune when it's your party that their practicing is wiping until the dungeon timer runs out. Recognizing that some healers (be it currently or permanently) cannot both DPS and heal efficiently in a dungeon is by no means saying that no healer can/should do it. The majority of healers can probably do it just fine, even if some may need some practice first.
But I'm on the same page as Liadan. When it comes to low level content, roulettes, and PUG's, frankly, I don't give a crap if people are playing "right." I don't focus on other players to nitpick whether they're in a certain stance or using certain skills or allocating their stat points wisely or wearing decent gear. If we're burning through the dungeon at a reasonable pace with no major bumps along the road, I don't really care what anyone is doing. Whatever works for the party works. If something's going wrong, I may look at these factors to try to figure out what the problem is, but otherwise, I'm more interested in whether something is working rather than if it's maximally efficient or "correct." That's not to say I'm cool with people completely lazing about and making a dungeon take twice as long as it could, but I think almost all of us half-ass it in roulettes and I'm not about to judge someone for doing the same thing I'm doing and don't intend to stop doing.
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