Kay, I'm gonna make a long, long post about some things I saw in here today. To preface everything that follows, I've personally been miffed by the storyline since (namely pacing) since Heavensward began, but am holding out hope for "lessons learned" taking effect when 4.0 drops. Everything in Heavensward has been pre-written, so if they're learning anything about how not to do something, it'll more than likely show up in the story in Ala Mhigo.
Anywhoozles,
Totally agree with this. Eorzea's never even faced one, whole Legion before. They've faced the crippled VIIth and then the spread thin XIVth. Garlemald has now lost three Legatus to Eorzea and has thus far only replaced one. Just send two whole Legions at once at us and crush us in a week and get it over with.
I think I've harped on this before in LS chat and is one of my biggest problems with us going so quickly into Stormblood and Ala Mhigo's liberation. Eorzea is no stronger now than they were five or fifteen years ago. They've made no efforts to make alliances with the Beast tribes (except the Griffin apparently, even though he says that but no Amalj'aa show up at all?), which was the entire point of the 1.0 storyline. Yet another Ala Mhigan Resistance cell thinks it can do better than the last dozen and throws itself at Baelsar's Wall once again, only to get slaughtered, again. Yes, they finally succeeded in roping the unwilling Alliance into fighting Garlemald (maybe? We attacked all the Eorzean castrums and nothing happened) but if Garlemald sends even one fully equipped and battle ready Legion against us we'll fall easy. Even if the Garlean military is supposedly running low on their ceruleum stores, they could probably afford to make one big push if they needed.
We have no more allies than we did years ago, and Ishgard is in even worse state politically, economically, and militaristically than it was 20 years ago. So they're dead weight. That leaves the three city-states, one of which just underwent a political upheaval sorta. Basically, it's going to come down to the Warrior of Light to do everything for everybody and I'm getting kinda bored of that.
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Regula's death was very unexpected for me and I deeply regret that literally every Legatus we meet ends up dying all alone without their legion to defend them within like a year. I can buy his reasoning for allying with us, his intentions were noble, I still think he would've stabbed us in the back if he'd been given the chance. And I have little hope that Regula's death will do anything but further drive Varis zos Galvus's rage towards Eorzea. Unlike Regula, what we know of him is that he's far, far less reasonable.
Which leads me into: individual Garleans may have redeeming qualities like any person, but the Garlean Empire as a whole has none.
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On the one hand, the apology was very awkward, as even Aymeric admitted. On the other hand, literally no one should be looking at Ishgard and expecting them to offer any notable contribution. Twenty years ago, when the Eorzean Alliance amassed itself in response to the fall of Ala Mhigo, it was Ishgard that flat out withdrew from the Alliance and pulled all of its troops into the city. This marked the end for the Alliance and the other nations followed suit in abandoning Ala Mhigo to its fate, for the most part. (Gridania is one notable exception, credit where credit's due even if their efforts didn't count for much.)
But yes, Ishgard has involved itself plenty during the lulls between Nidhogg's "Awakenings", but this particular call for aid did coincide with one of Nidhogg's awakenings (the eighth). But to be fair, Nidhogg's seventh awakening was only 9 years prior to the Autumn War. /shrug.
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I've seen a few mentions of it, but from various conversations I've heard that the text itself is difficult to translate exactly from JP to EN. I've heard most people seem to think that while the text might lean towards a literal translation of "second partner," it might more accurately be localized into "second half." Which fits more in line with the other language translations.
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Tupsimati's great power is that it can channel nigh unlimited amounts of aether from the planet through the caster. Supposedly, it has the power to rouse the Twelve from slumber, which is the purpose Louisoix originally intended it for in 1572. He carved the symbols of the Twelve in the rocks about Eorzea and the Grand Companies defended a mass pilgrimage of worshipers to these rocks, which were (at the time) strategically laid out in a big circle around Carteneau, with Louisoix's symbol in the center at Mor Dhona. It was here that he and Urianger gathered the aether from these prayers and what remained of the corrupted Lifestream into Tupsimati.
However, Louisoix knew that what little aether remained on Hydaelyn would not be enough to support the Twelve if they gained corporeal forms completely, so he planned to kill himself before the spell was completed so that the Twelve would not be completely summoned and the aether would return to the planet. Obviously, things didn't go exactly as planned and Bahamut proved too strong, so he invoked the power of the Twelve he had gathered into making himself a primal, upon which he was supposed to die and give up his aether across the land, but just as he was dying, Bahamut tempered him and claimed his departed soul in much the same way as Darnus at Rivenroad.
SO, does the staff actually kill you? Ultimately unknown. Channeling that much aether through the caster's body as a conduit could prove fatal. Alternatively, the point that Louisoix was going to kill himself to stop the completion of the summoning seems to indicate death isn't a certainty. If Papalymo was truly attempting to invoke the exact same spell as Louisoix, which it is stated he was doing, he was attempting to summon the power of the Twelve, and like Louisoix, knew that he would need to kill himself once the seal was complete. Did Papalymo succeed? Who knows.
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Louisoix gave us our only explanation for Urianger's eccentric mannerisms:
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This is getting into speculation for the upcoming storyline, but Virella made an interesting find in the DE version of the dialogue that, was further corroborated in the FR and JP versions as well. Ilberd is not attempting to summon Rhalgr and he's not summoning this new god in the traditional way that every other primal we've seen thus far has been summoned. He claims to be summoning something much more powerful - a primordial force. This is likely why the summoning is taking so long and why (albeit a flimsy explanation) Papalymo elects to seal the thing instead of just throwing the WoL at it, until the surviving Scions can figure out just what is inside the seal and how to defeat it.
After Virella told me about this, I conferred with Anonymoose and we confirmed that the translations are similar in the JP and FR as well. Each says that Ilberd intends to summon a "new god" that is free of the "faith" "dogma" or "begging prayers" to fuel it. This seems like it will be a new chapter in the "What the Ascians know about Primal Summoning that we don't" saga, like when we first encountered Shiva.
My guess is that while "figuring out how to deal with this" in the non-traditional don't throw the WoL at it way, Nero will approach the Scions holding the keys to Omega. Omega, being Ultima's sibling more or less, will likely be believed and advertised as a way for them to contain this "primordial god." Which leads to Yda being the one to punch the button to decompress the botched summoning and finalize Papalymo's death in her mind. I also suspect Nero will backstab us around this point or Omega will come with some unanticipated side effects that will lead us into it being the 4.0 Raid, the Bend of Time, which is a pocket dimension in the Chrono Cross series. So we'll see.
Honestly though, I don't really have any other responses to most of your arguments. There's a lot of holes. A lot of quick tie-ups in the various storylines. A lot of just... idk, like you I hope Stormblood is better. I just haven't been able to invest in Heavensward's story and I'm praying that the coming continuation of Ala Mhigo's 1.0 storyline, the story that got me so heavily invested in this game, will be greatly improved.
Anywhoozles,
(01-18-2017, 12:23 AM)Aaron Wrote: I'm not the only one wondering why the GE isn't just sending two legions instead of one to take over Eorzea? Judging from what that gridanian chic said all this would literally be over in less than a week if Garlemad legit just went "ehh... Send two, maybe one and a half."
Totally agree with this. Eorzea's never even faced one, whole Legion before. They've faced the crippled VIIth and then the spread thin XIVth. Garlemald has now lost three Legatus to Eorzea and has thus far only replaced one. Just send two whole Legions at once at us and crush us in a week and get it over with.
I think I've harped on this before in LS chat and is one of my biggest problems with us going so quickly into Stormblood and Ala Mhigo's liberation. Eorzea is no stronger now than they were five or fifteen years ago. They've made no efforts to make alliances with the Beast tribes (except the Griffin apparently, even though he says that but no Amalj'aa show up at all?), which was the entire point of the 1.0 storyline. Yet another Ala Mhigan Resistance cell thinks it can do better than the last dozen and throws itself at Baelsar's Wall once again, only to get slaughtered, again. Yes, they finally succeeded in roping the unwilling Alliance into fighting Garlemald (maybe? We attacked all the Eorzean castrums and nothing happened) but if Garlemald sends even one fully equipped and battle ready Legion against us we'll fall easy. Even if the Garlean military is supposedly running low on their ceruleum stores, they could probably afford to make one big push if they needed.
We have no more allies than we did years ago, and Ishgard is in even worse state politically, economically, and militaristically than it was 20 years ago. So they're dead weight. That leaves the three city-states, one of which just underwent a political upheaval sorta. Basically, it's going to come down to the Warrior of Light to do everything for everybody and I'm getting kinda bored of that.
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(01-18-2017, 01:54 AM)Graeham Wrote: I do wish he would have stuck around for longer but hopefully it will not be the last time we end up teaming up with a Garlean for the sake of the greater good whilst they remain loyal to their homeland and people in the same breath.
If nothing else it's simply further proof that my own character doesn't break canon despite there being some very vocal individuals who try to make it seem like every Garlean that isn't a defector is somehow evil and without any redeeming qualities.
Regula's death was very unexpected for me and I deeply regret that literally every Legatus we meet ends up dying all alone without their legion to defend them within like a year. I can buy his reasoning for allying with us, his intentions were noble, I still think he would've stabbed us in the back if he'd been given the chance. And I have little hope that Regula's death will do anything but further drive Varis zos Galvus's rage towards Eorzea. Unlike Regula, what we know of him is that he's far, far less reasonable.
Which leads me into: individual Garleans may have redeeming qualities like any person, but the Garlean Empire as a whole has none.
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(01-18-2017, 05:41 AM)Valeera Wrote:(01-18-2017, 01:54 AM)Graeham Wrote: Aymeric's also pretty stupid. Seriously, why is he apologising for Ishgard not lending its aid to the rest of Eorzea when it was locked in a bitter, brutal war with Nidhogg and his servants?The Dragonsong War seems like it had its ebbs and flows, and from what I recall it was in a bit of a lull between Nidhogg getting rekt by Alberic at Ferndale and the Calamity spurring the Dravanian assault upon the Stone and Steel Vigils, so the Ishgardians likely could have spared forces. It also wouldn't have been the first time the Holy See deployed soldiers to foreign lands during the Dragonsong War. Ishgard sent its forces to the otherwise isolated Gridania to help them defend against the Ala Mhigan invasion during the Autumn War (a task arguably more difficult than facing off against a single fractured Legion with a dead commander).
On the one hand, the apology was very awkward, as even Aymeric admitted. On the other hand, literally no one should be looking at Ishgard and expecting them to offer any notable contribution. Twenty years ago, when the Eorzean Alliance amassed itself in response to the fall of Ala Mhigo, it was Ishgard that flat out withdrew from the Alliance and pulled all of its troops into the city. This marked the end for the Alliance and the other nations followed suit in abandoning Ala Mhigo to its fate, for the most part. (Gridania is one notable exception, credit where credit's due even if their efforts didn't count for much.)
But yes, Ishgard has involved itself plenty during the lulls between Nidhogg's "Awakenings", but this particular call for aid did coincide with one of Nidhogg's awakenings (the eighth). But to be fair, Nidhogg's seventh awakening was only 9 years prior to the Autumn War. /shrug.
Alberic Wrote:Alas, dragons are no less real than you and I, with Nidhogg perhaps the most real of all. In the course of its history, Ishgard has suffered under the creature on eight separate occasions. Each time the great wyrm rouses, the blood of countless Ishgardians is spilled.
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(01-18-2017, 12:45 PM)Kage Wrote: So for anyone else using Japanese dialogue, did anyone elae catch Papalymo calling Yda his "second" partner?
I've seen a few mentions of it, but from various conversations I've heard that the text itself is difficult to translate exactly from JP to EN. I've heard most people seem to think that while the text might lean towards a literal translation of "second partner," it might more accurately be localized into "second half." Which fits more in line with the other language translations.
Anonymoose Wrote:[EN]
I bid thee farewell again, my dear Yda...
Now, let us see how good a student I truly was...
[JP]
ã•ã‚ˆãªã‚‰ã ã€åƒ•ã®ãµãŸã‚Šã‚ã®ç›¸æ£’……。
ã•ã‚ã€ä¸€ä¸–一代ã®å¤§ã°ãã¡ã ãžï¼
Goodbye, [my second partner / couple partner / second person partner / second half]...
Alright, this kind of gamble is once-in-a-lifetime!
[DE]
Farewell, my dear companion...
Alright, then, let's see!
[FR]
Farewell, my friend... You, too, you were a terrific partner...
Alright! The moment of truth has arrived!
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(01-18-2017, 12:06 PM)Nero Wrote: 1). Tupsimati still has "great power", and yet the sealing spell takes up all of the caster's aether? Well, Tupsimati's "great power" must count for utter shit, then. The way the dialogue is written, it's implied that all of the caster's aether is used up no matter what the scale of the spell is, so what is the point of this Chekhov's gun if it doesn't even seem to matter as a plot device?
Tupsimati's great power is that it can channel nigh unlimited amounts of aether from the planet through the caster. Supposedly, it has the power to rouse the Twelve from slumber, which is the purpose Louisoix originally intended it for in 1572. He carved the symbols of the Twelve in the rocks about Eorzea and the Grand Companies defended a mass pilgrimage of worshipers to these rocks, which were (at the time) strategically laid out in a big circle around Carteneau, with Louisoix's symbol in the center at Mor Dhona. It was here that he and Urianger gathered the aether from these prayers and what remained of the corrupted Lifestream into Tupsimati.
However, Louisoix knew that what little aether remained on Hydaelyn would not be enough to support the Twelve if they gained corporeal forms completely, so he planned to kill himself before the spell was completed so that the Twelve would not be completely summoned and the aether would return to the planet. Obviously, things didn't go exactly as planned and Bahamut proved too strong, so he invoked the power of the Twelve he had gathered into making himself a primal, upon which he was supposed to die and give up his aether across the land, but just as he was dying, Bahamut tempered him and claimed his departed soul in much the same way as Darnus at Rivenroad.
SO, does the staff actually kill you? Ultimately unknown. Channeling that much aether through the caster's body as a conduit could prove fatal. Alternatively, the point that Louisoix was going to kill himself to stop the completion of the summoning seems to indicate death isn't a certainty. If Papalymo was truly attempting to invoke the exact same spell as Louisoix, which it is stated he was doing, he was attempting to summon the power of the Twelve, and like Louisoix, knew that he would need to kill himself once the seal was complete. Did Papalymo succeed? Who knows.
Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Tupsimati is the legendary staff wielded by Archon Louisoix in his heroic effort to banish the elder primal Bahamut. At its tip rests a horn, an ancient treasure of Sharlayan also known as the "key," the motive force that allows its bearer to draw vast quantities of aether from his surroundings and call upon the powers of the Twelves themselves.
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(01-18-2017, 12:06 PM)Nero Wrote: This isn't particularly a problem when only a few characters do it--Urianger's verbosity is a notable exception, although what his archaic speaking style is supposed to convey about him I'm not entirely sure considering no one else in the game besides the dragons talk like him...
Louisoix gave us our only explanation for Urianger's eccentric mannerisms:
Louisoix Wrote:Mayhap you have also crossed paths with Urianger, yet another of our circle. In which case, I must crave your pardon if his mannerism strikes you as outlandish. 'Tis not his intent to confound folk with cryptic words. You see, the man has seen much more of tome than he has of the world. I assure you, though, that his heart is in the right place.
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(01-18-2017, 12:06 PM)Nero Wrote: And if said primal isn't using any ambient aether and is instead using the aether from the Eyes of Nidhogg, then why is it taking so long to form? Shiva (who didn't even need the Eyes), King Thordan, and Corrupted Estinien didn't take twenty minutes to take shape, they more or less formed instantaneously, so why is this thing suddenly special? Are there suddenly special rules for primal summoning? Was this primal busy trying to get its forms through the Department of Primal Formations so that it could take shape on Eorzea?
(01-18-2017, 04:22 PM)Nero Wrote: That still doesn't explain why this Primal takes an arbitrarily long amount of time to form when pretty much every other primal summoning was more or less instantaneous as long as sufficient aether was present. Either there's enough aether for it to materialize, or there isn't.
It's repeated constantly that summoning a primal requires a specific prayer; faith by itself is insufficient, and faith and prayer are not the same thing. Louisoix, Thordan, and the Binding Coil story all thoroughly establish that there needs to be a prayer containing a wish or desire. This is a fairly specific requirement.
My whole point behind this is that the Rhalgr primal couldn't have possibly been powerful enough to necessitate a sealing spell if we consider that the only ones praying for Rhalgr's salvation (or alternatively, praying for Rhalgr to destroy their enemies) were the Ala Mhigans dead or dying on the Wall.
This is getting into speculation for the upcoming storyline, but Virella made an interesting find in the DE version of the dialogue that, was further corroborated in the FR and JP versions as well. Ilberd is not attempting to summon Rhalgr and he's not summoning this new god in the traditional way that every other primal we've seen thus far has been summoned. He claims to be summoning something much more powerful - a primordial force. This is likely why the summoning is taking so long and why (albeit a flimsy explanation) Papalymo elects to seal the thing instead of just throwing the WoL at it, until the surviving Scions can figure out just what is inside the seal and how to defeat it.
Quote:[DE]
Ilberd: With the cry of those whom no one will hear! With the longing of those who do not fear death! With our despair and our abyssal hatred for Garlemald, I call a new God! A God who does not need begging prayers!
Papalymo: A God who does not need prayers?
Alphinaud: You really mean to fight Garlemald with a primal!? Don't be a fool, Ilberd! You know you'll pay dearly for this!
Ilberd: Not "a" primal. A [primordial / elemental] force, stronger than all primals! Stronger than the power of that black monstrosity that evoked that all-devouring catastrophe!
After Virella told me about this, I conferred with Anonymoose and we confirmed that the translations are similar in the JP and FR as well. Each says that Ilberd intends to summon a "new god" that is free of the "faith" "dogma" or "begging prayers" to fuel it. This seems like it will be a new chapter in the "What the Ascians know about Primal Summoning that we don't" saga, like when we first encountered Shiva.
My guess is that while "figuring out how to deal with this" in the non-traditional don't throw the WoL at it way, Nero will approach the Scions holding the keys to Omega. Omega, being Ultima's sibling more or less, will likely be believed and advertised as a way for them to contain this "primordial god." Which leads to Yda being the one to punch the button to decompress the botched summoning and finalize Papalymo's death in her mind. I also suspect Nero will backstab us around this point or Omega will come with some unanticipated side effects that will lead us into it being the 4.0 Raid, the Bend of Time, which is a pocket dimension in the Chrono Cross series. So we'll see.
Honestly though, I don't really have any other responses to most of your arguments. There's a lot of holes. A lot of quick tie-ups in the various storylines. A lot of just... idk, like you I hope Stormblood is better. I just haven't been able to invest in Heavensward's story and I'm praying that the coming continuation of Ala Mhigo's 1.0 storyline, the story that got me so heavily invested in this game, will be greatly improved.
