Haha okay, if we're going to have a rational, lore-based discussion about this we can't keep bringing in real world or even previous FF title parallels into XIV. They aren't applicable.
In lore, Halone is not depicted with a sword at all. Her symbol is three spears and she is depicted as a relentless warrioress armed with a bronze greatshield.
"Halone, mover of glaciers and goddess of war, is the guardian diety of Ishgard. She commands the element of ice and is associated with the first moon of the Eorzean calendar. Halone is the daughter of Rhalgr, and a bitter rival of Nophica. She is most often depicted as a relentless warrioress armed with a bronze greatshield. Her symbol is the three spears."
-Halone, Character Creation
I'm not sure what resemblances you're referring to? We have not a single image of Halone yet. We only know she's a warrioress with a shield. The only artistic rendition of one of the Twelve we have is of Nophica. Seen here:
As for Parvati, she is a form of Shakti, the Wife of Shiva - not his female aspect. Parvati is considered the benevolent goddess of love and devotion. She is also the goddess of power, giving strength to all other gods. Her power is also superior to that of Shiva's. But she is not a warrioress.
I wouldn't call Yevon dual-natured. He's malevolent. He doesn't do anything good for humanity. People just pray to him because they're misguided. Also in FFX, the Aeons like Shiva were just people, and they actually helped defeat the god that tricked them into becoming idols.
As for Zodiark, Him and the Ascians are based (nearly) entirely off of FFXII. Zodiark was the 12th Lucavi(Esper) that was sealed away in Ivalice by the Twelve Zodiac Braves after the Great Catastrophe. It is believed that Zodiark was one of the 12 Scions of Light (Gee, that phrase sounds familiar...) but was locked away with the 12 Scions of Darkness because Zodiark was too powerful and the Occurians feared him.
Some of the other 11 Scions of Light (Lahabrea, Pashtarot, Igeyorhm, and Nabriales) appear in FFXIV as named Ascian characters. Elidibus (the white Ascian) also was a character in XII's lore who first broke the seal binding the imprisoned Zodiark. Clear parallels, but with the key difference that they were the good guys in XII and are now trying to destroy the world in XIV. So again, you cannot use other games' lore to shape XIV lore.
We may not know how Zodiark ties in to Hydaelyn's history yet, but the lore does give us "theories' as to where the Primals come from.
Hydaelyn created the world and the Twelve. Well.... at least Hydaelyn created six or seven of the Twelve, who then all hook up and have babies and a very confusing family tree. They inhabited Eorzea alone and all got along great together. They created the Mooglekin to serve them. Until, according to Moogle Lore, one of the Twelve spills Another's cup of wine. Party foul! But instead of screaming "Opa!" the Twelve began to fight among themselves.
Source: The Raven: Moogle Myth Made Manifest
Follow this up with a story from 1.0.
This all takes place during the Time of Twelve. Before Man arrives in Eorzea. So the Twelve created the Primals to fight their war, who in turn create the Beastmen. Which explains why the Primals hate other Primals with a passion. Then during the Age of Man, nomadic tribes of Elezen, Roegadyn, and Lalafell migrate to Eorzea. The legend goes that the Twelve looked mercifully upon the resilience of these primitive settlers and saw fit to ensure their welfare on their harsh and primal land.
The lore gets a little hazy after this but somewhere between the first tribes arriving in Eorzea and the First Umbral Calamity, the Twelve leave Eorzea or go into slumber or something. I theorize that the Primals took advantage of this and tried to subjugate Man out of jealousy and ended up bringing on the first Umbral Era where everyone is at war with one another.
But enough of that, moving on.
Again, the only two things Halone and Shiva have in common is the fact they are both deities of Ice and both use a shield. Personally, I think these two similarities are very easy to ignore. Considering you can't draw any correlation from any of the other 5 Primals to any of the other 11 of the Twelve, I don't see how you conclude that because Shiva and Halone both use a shield that somehow all Primals are actually the Twelve? That is a huuuuuuuuuuge leap with no lore to back it.
I said we would likely fight them (like we have been doing already in the MSQ), I never said anything about wiping them out. We are at war with the other beast tribes too. None of them are close to extinction. As much as we'd like to wipe the sylphs out after their terrible Beast Tribe quests.
To be fair, we were actually at peace with almost all of the beast tribes (Dravanians being the exception) until 1562 when the Garleans invaded Eorzea. It was after that threat of extermination we began tossing beastmen out of our cities so that we could claim we had no affiliation to lesser races. It's little wonder the beast tribes and their Primals hate us.
(06-24-2014, 06:15 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Think about it for a moment, in lore Halone is depicted as a woman wielding a great shield and sword. Her aspect is Ice. Shiva is the Ice Primal seen in recent footage wielding a sword and shield.
In lore, Halone is not depicted with a sword at all. Her symbol is three spears and she is depicted as a relentless warrioress armed with a bronze greatshield.
"Halone, mover of glaciers and goddess of war, is the guardian diety of Ishgard. She commands the element of ice and is associated with the first moon of the Eorzean calendar. Halone is the daughter of Rhalgr, and a bitter rival of Nophica. She is most often depicted as a relentless warrioress armed with a bronze greatshield. Her symbol is the three spears."
-Halone, Character Creation
(06-25-2014, 12:04 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: The resemblances between Shiva and Halone are relatively uncanny, even the fact that Halone is supposed to be based off the Hindu Goddess Parvati which is the female aspect of the Hindu God Shiva.
I'm not sure what resemblances you're referring to? We have not a single image of Halone yet. We only know she's a warrioress with a shield. The only artistic rendition of one of the Twelve we have is of Nophica. Seen here:
As for Parvati, she is a form of Shakti, the Wife of Shiva - not his female aspect. Parvati is considered the benevolent goddess of love and devotion. She is also the goddess of power, giving strength to all other gods. Her power is also superior to that of Shiva's. But she is not a warrioress.
(06-26-2014, 06:15 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Final Fantasy has always used dual natured deities pretty heavily in the past. The first and more obvious example being Yevon from FFX. Even the whole Hydaelyn and Zodiark thing screams dual nature to some degree, where the Twelve could be associated to her and the Primals are their darker counterparts tied to Zodiark.
I wouldn't call Yevon dual-natured. He's malevolent. He doesn't do anything good for humanity. People just pray to him because they're misguided. Also in FFX, the Aeons like Shiva were just people, and they actually helped defeat the god that tricked them into becoming idols.
As for Zodiark, Him and the Ascians are based (nearly) entirely off of FFXII. Zodiark was the 12th Lucavi(Esper) that was sealed away in Ivalice by the Twelve Zodiac Braves after the Great Catastrophe. It is believed that Zodiark was one of the 12 Scions of Light (Gee, that phrase sounds familiar...) but was locked away with the 12 Scions of Darkness because Zodiark was too powerful and the Occurians feared him.
Some of the other 11 Scions of Light (Lahabrea, Pashtarot, Igeyorhm, and Nabriales) appear in FFXIV as named Ascian characters. Elidibus (the white Ascian) also was a character in XII's lore who first broke the seal binding the imprisoned Zodiark. Clear parallels, but with the key difference that they were the good guys in XII and are now trying to destroy the world in XIV. So again, you cannot use other games' lore to shape XIV lore.
(06-26-2014, 06:15 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: ...the Twelve could be associated to her and the Primals are their darker counterparts tied to Zodiark.
We may not know how Zodiark ties in to Hydaelyn's history yet, but the lore does give us "theories' as to where the Primals come from.
Hydaelyn created the world and the Twelve. Well.... at least Hydaelyn created six or seven of the Twelve, who then all hook up and have babies and a very confusing family tree. They inhabited Eorzea alone and all got along great together. They created the Mooglekin to serve them. Until, according to Moogle Lore, one of the Twelve spills Another's cup of wine. Party foul! But instead of screaming "Opa!" the Twelve began to fight among themselves.
Source: The Raven: Moogle Myth Made Manifest
Follow this up with a story from 1.0.
Quote:At some point the Twelve stopped being peaceful and began warring with each other. They created life to wage their wars. Since then, six eras of umbral and astral have occurred. The astral eras see man flourish and and prosper, whereas umbral eras see man falter and doubt.-Dusty Tomes - @Arrzaneth Ossuary 1.0
This all takes place during the Time of Twelve. Before Man arrives in Eorzea. So the Twelve created the Primals to fight their war, who in turn create the Beastmen. Which explains why the Primals hate other Primals with a passion. Then during the Age of Man, nomadic tribes of Elezen, Roegadyn, and Lalafell migrate to Eorzea. The legend goes that the Twelve looked mercifully upon the resilience of these primitive settlers and saw fit to ensure their welfare on their harsh and primal land.
The lore gets a little hazy after this but somewhere between the first tribes arriving in Eorzea and the First Umbral Calamity, the Twelve leave Eorzea or go into slumber or something. I theorize that the Primals took advantage of this and tried to subjugate Man out of jealousy and ended up bringing on the first Umbral Era where everyone is at war with one another.
But enough of that, moving on.
(06-26-2014, 06:15 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: While it may be more difficult to draw connections from the other Primals to a member of the Twelve, the similarities between Halone and Shiva are impossible to ignore.
Again, the only two things Halone and Shiva have in common is the fact they are both deities of Ice and both use a shield. Personally, I think these two similarities are very easy to ignore. Considering you can't draw any correlation from any of the other 5 Primals to any of the other 11 of the Twelve, I don't see how you conclude that because Shiva and Halone both use a shield that somehow all Primals are actually the Twelve? That is a huuuuuuuuuuge leap with no lore to back it.
(06-26-2014, 06:15 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: While this isn't proof of my theory, it does add strength to the idea that we'll likely come to a peaceful solution someday with Dravania instead of just wiping them out.
I said we would likely fight them (like we have been doing already in the MSQ), I never said anything about wiping them out. We are at war with the other beast tribes too. None of them are close to extinction. As much as we'd like to wipe the sylphs out after their terrible Beast Tribe quests.
To be fair, we were actually at peace with almost all of the beast tribes (Dravanians being the exception) until 1562 when the Garleans invaded Eorzea. It was after that threat of extermination we began tossing beastmen out of our cities so that we could claim we had no affiliation to lesser races. It's little wonder the beast tribes and their Primals hate us.