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Melkire · **04-22-2015, 08:12 PM**

(04-22-2015, 08:06 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: -snip-

Ah, alright.

I'm of the personal opinion that atmospheres and environments that are too shielded by policies that promote politically correct niceties and seek to impose "we're all friends and we all have to get along!" utopias generally can't support large communities after a certain amount of population growth because when you stuff too many people into the same room, those policies start to fail. Why? Because you can't force everyone to get along without going totalitarian and transparent.

But that's just one man's opinion and I'll be standing by the updated rule sets and policies once we release them.

Sarangerel Qestir · **04-22-2015, 08:13 PM**

I have to apologize if my reply earlier made it sound like I was trying to say people don't pay attention to new people. 90 percent of the people I've met randomly are the kind of people who wouldn't just acknowledge a new person but say hello and try to help them out. I'm not saying people intentionally ignore or write off people who are 'less popular' but I am saying that new people can and sometimes do feel that way. It's understandable. Like with artists who post great artwork somewhere and it gets few views and fewer shares or comments, when someone works up the courage to walk up to a player with 'Walkup Welcomed' in their search info or makes what they consider to be a well thought out post on the forums, it's disappointing to feel like no one thought those things were worthwhile responding to.

It's not giving credit to the fact that people are -busy- or even 'popular' people can be shy. We all afk for a bit or get floods of random talk text in our chats that hide someone's walk up emote before we even have a chance to see them. No one should feel guilty about not roleplaying with anyone. Certainly, no one should be guilting other people into anything (even if they really want Warren's attention). On that specific note, let me say that I had a lot of trouble in that particular position with people feeling as though A. I thought I was better than them and was only interested in talking to my -select- group of friends or B. Really really wanted me to roleplay with them outside the event. Alot of the stress came from having my attention split between so many people with so many grievances and ending up involved in so many poor situations that I couldn't even get my own personal roleplay done. That was a huge factor contributing to why I quit playing Siobhain in the first place.

The same stress applies to FC and Linkshell leaders as well as any other form of leader in the community. You have a group of people to look after and try to pay attention to and if you don't do it, you're being 'neglectful' but if you do then you're not getting time to fulfill your own interests at all and even if you -are- giving as much attention to everyone as they require, someone will likely, inevitably, feel like they're getting less than someone else. That quickly escalates into them complaining to others about either your leadership or your group and it's difficult to prevent. Like people have said, it helps a lot to try and remember that others are people too who have a lot of things going on for them at any given point. That stress they've built up can accidentally overflow into something that comes across as harsh at the wrong time. We're not perfect, but we -can- acknowledge when we've hurt someone and apologize.

So while I still say empathizing with other people, even people we don't personally like, and taking any bad opinions of people with a grain of salt would be really beneficial to everyone just in general, I'm not going to say people don't care about one another. We do. Everyone cares about someone. We just can't care about everyone all the time to the point where we've completely sacrificed all our free time to making sure that everyone is happy. Because then, when someone is still unhappy, it's incredibly painful and disappointing.

Now that there's a thread and more people have gotten some insight about what they may or may not be doing and how it may or may not be affecting others, wouldn't it just be best not to try and alter things like reputation or anything (those seem like symptoms as opposed to the root of the issues) and let things go for a bit? At least someone was bold enough to bring it up and there's actually a lot of good points in here.

Kellach Woods · **04-22-2015, 08:15 PM**

(04-22-2015, 08:12 PM)Melkire Wrote: I'm of the personal opinion that atmospheres and environments that are too shielded by policies that promote politically correct niceties and seek to impose "we're all friends and we all have to get along!" utopias generally can't support large communities after a certain amount of population growth because when you stuff too many people into the same room, those policies start to fail.

But that's just one man's opinion and I'll be standing by the updated rule sets and policies once we release them.

Pretty much what I said before the line that was quoted by ArmachiA - That if we do recognize this is a problem and that we do not want this kind of behavior in our community, it has to be a conscious effort from everyone.

I don't think this community has it in them to do this from the heart at this point in time and moderation can only do so much.

And hell, you ain't the only one who been slackin' on the welcomin' train. I'm just as guilty as anyone else here.

Zhavi · **04-22-2015, 08:23 PM**

(04-22-2015, 07:42 PM)Black Hat Wrote: I will no longer be participating in this discussion. Not because I am ignoring the issue, but because I am disappointed with the bend it has now taken.

I am ashamed of some of the people who have posted in these last few pages. Honestly ashamed, as an RPer, as a member of this community, and as a human being. You've taken it too far.

There is a line between radicalism and pushing your viewpoint on other people. This thread, in my opinion, has escalated so quickly to that level with posts that repeat the exact same mantra, over and over again ad nauseum and it has begun to feel less like constructive criticism and a call to action but more like picketing until we get what we want.

Earlier today, I put a thread in "Making Connections" with a silly name that had nothing to do with the topic INTENTIONALLY to see what would happen and if anyone was actually looking. I promised that anyone who posted there would be responded to within 24 hours and RP would happen. The individuals who have been lobbying for "newbie interaction" made no attempt to post in it nor (I would guess) did they look. I received nearly 10 responses from other members of the community though and we've made plans to get together to RP.

My Rep is currently 25ish, not very high. My post count is also not very high. My RP attempt in Town Hall was largely observed but ignored.Â

I FEEL that certain individuals in this thread should be ashamed of themselves.

That is all.

First, I'm not trying to bait you back in -- but I do feel it is important to address your concerns, because they are concerning to me.

But, sometimes I get frustrated because I don't understand. I try to, I do.

Where I come from, when you post a thread without first contacting other people, you get ignored. Not intentionally -- it's just that people are off doing xyz, and unless they have rped with you, or have talked to you to some extent, they're not going to be comfortable jumping into a thread with you. So, to me, it is an inherent risk of posting an open thread without first contacting someone: people won't bite.

I am sorry for repeating myself, because I tend to say this fairly regularly in these types of topics, but

I have almost never been approached for rp for my character outside of people who I approached first, in almost every single rp community I have ever been in.

At the time I had like four to seven threads in the IC forum at once? Those were all people I contacted, who I'd never spoken to before, essentially begging them to rp with me. They were all also (for the most part) people who rarely if ever posted on the forums.

Now, I understand that not everyone wants to be aggressive as I am, or maybe even finds it offputting, but please hear me out from my perspective:

Every time I am rejected I feel a little hurt. That is my personality. I am sensitive. However, I also understand that it is actively hurtful to my chances to allow that hurt to hold me back, and so I lick my wounds privately and keep going on.
Going on is freaking hard for me. I tend to blame myself when rp stutters, or someone stops posting mid thread, or continually has an excuse not to rp with me. But I have to firmly remind myself, each time: the chances of it being personal are next to nothing, and even if the person doesn't like me, oh well, there are other people out there.
I tend to be my own worst critic. 99.99999% of rpers I know are this way. Not getting positive feedback does not necessarily mean you're bad and no one likes your writing or wants to rp with you, but it can feel that way.
Not everyone is into your style of rp. Zhavi is a niche character, and the rp I wanted to do on her is niche rp. Not everyone wants to do that kind of rp. There are sometimes specific rps people want to do, or specific things they want to write, or LIKE I AM RIGHT NOW, are limiting how much rp they are doing because too much becomes stressful and not fun. It has no bearing on how they feel about my rp, and assuming things about what people do or do not think will not change anything and may negatively impact my perception of future rp.
The more niche you are, the harder time it is to find rp. It got to a point on Zhavi where I had bitten off more than I could chew. I was digging through 10-20 character wikis a day at one point, searching for someone who I thought might be willing to rp with me. If I had not done that, chances are I would have gotten zero rp.

I don't understand. I want to help. Whenever I have seen someone asking why no one wants to rp with them, why they've had trouble, etc etc etc, I try to post something to help. Yet, it's like whenever I post these posts, the people who need it or who are having problems completely ignore it or poof. I don't know what happens to them. I hope they got something out of their comments. I hope they find rp. But I do not know, as an individual, or as a part of the greater community what else I am supposed to do.

So when I see posts like this, I am disappointed, too, because it appears to me as a major disconnect. I am reaching out, and I feel like the people who are asking for a hand are sort of slapping my hand away.

I want to see suggestions. I want to see people actively stating "here is a problem, here are my thoughts, and here are some things I think might work -- what do you think?"

When I see posts done with finality, with a sort of throwing hands up in the air mentality -- I don't understand.

Please help me understand.

Harmonixer · **04-22-2015, 08:24 PM**

(04-22-2015, 08:12 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-22-2015, 08:06 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: -snip-

Ah, alright.

I'm of the personal opinion that atmospheres and environments that are too shielded by policies that promote politically correct niceties and seek to impose "we're all friends and we all have to get along!" utopias generally can't support large communities after a certain amount of population growth because when you stuff too many people into the same room, those policies start to fail. Why? Because you can't force everyone to get along without going totalitarian and transparent.

But that's just one man's opinion and I'll be standing by the updated rule sets and policies once we release them.

I wish the mods the best of luck with this, in complete seriousness. I stepped down for my modding responsibilities simply because I had no patience for it.

Cato · **04-22-2015, 08:40 PM**

(04-22-2015, 07:42 PM)Black Hat Wrote: I will no longer be participating in this discussion. Not because I am ignoring the issue, but because I am disappointed with the bend it has now taken.

I am ashamed of some of the people who have posted in these last few pages. Honestly ashamed, as an RPer, as a member of this community, and as a human being. You've taken it too far.

There is a line between radicalism and pushing your viewpoint on other people. This thread, in my opinion, has escalated so quickly to that level with posts that repeat the exact same mantra, over and over again ad nauseum and it has begun to feel less like constructive criticism and a call to action but more like picketing until we get what we want.

Earlier today, I put a thread in "Making Connections" with a silly name that had nothing to do with the topic INTENTIONALLY to see what would happen and if anyone was actually looking. I promised that anyone who posted there would be responded to within 24 hours and RP would happen. The individuals who have been lobbying for "newbie interaction" made no attempt to post in it nor (I would guess) did they look. I received nearly 10 responses from other members of the community though and we've made plans to get together to RP.

My Rep is currently 25ish, not very high. My post count is also not very high. My RP attempt in Town Hall was largely observed but ignored.Â

I FEEL that certain individuals in this thread should be ashamed of themselves.

That is all.

It's a shame that you felt the need to depart the thread altogether. Your insight into matters related to the thread has been quite valuable. I can understand your frustration but it's only been a few hours since you posted the thread in question so maybe it's best to let it sit for a while?

That's what I'm doing with the thread I created in the Making Connections sub-forum recently though I've had a response to that so I'm content!

I'm one of those pushing for more newbie interaction and I responded to your thread as soon as I saw it so I hope that gives you some comfort and tempts you to return to the debate.

Fox · **04-22-2015, 09:05 PM**

I personally just wanted to say that, after sleeping and working on finals for the past few hours I haven't had a chance to check this thread till now. Though I have read through most of the replies or at least quickly did on some of the longer ones (I do apologize for not a heavy reading through some), and I began to get a little lost of what exactly happened to the thread itself. This being said I'm probably going to go ahead and step away as well. I feel I've said what I had to and that's that.Â

I will say though, I was not personally posting in this thread to -search- for RP or to even address that. As I said some posts back, I literally don't have the time to do heavy searching for rp or making a lot of connections. Partially that is my fault, but I do have a limited time I can give. I suppose I'm at fault to that extent; however I do have a full load of very heavy classes this semester that I'm trying to finish out- and I will continue to diminish until mid-may of what -I- personally can offer. It's just the life of a senior in an art school.Â That will change however once my semester is finished (or finals are done anyway).

My personal view however, was coming at this not from a lack-or-not-a-lack of RP but just an overall general tone of how things have gotten snarky/negative/etc on the forums in OOC discussions.

Anstarra · **04-22-2015, 09:22 PM**

I just want to toss in, that with regards to some of the stuff that was said earlier on reputation boosts...

I really love getting them. I don't post often, so I certainly don't have a 'following' or anything. Thus they feel extra special to me. However, I can CERTAINLY see where someone being snarky, brutally honest or a downright jerk would net them a hefty return. As I said to Verad, they're basically the epitome of high-fiving someone behind everyone else's back, after they burn someone.

Do I think this is a big enough problem to warrant removing them? Naw. The phenomenon of people being jerks on the internet is as old as, well, the internet. The rep system just sorta streamlines the usual 'lol nice one' process.

I think if there's an unusual amount of aggression lately we can safely blame boredom paired with anxious anticipation. We all want the expac to be here already. Also, I don't know about you guys? But for me, the MSQ KINDA felt like a downer at the end there, leaving me wanting to stab someone. We sorta got owned, hard. I've seen a lot of IC backlash, a lot of 'I'm gonna RP stabbing some Blades', and I can't help but think it's having an insidious effect on attitudes as a whole. And so people come here, big RP central, with their IC attitudes in the back of their minds, and what comes out but a self-actualizing kind of unheeding forwardness.

Change is in the air, and most of us probably don't think we'll even maintain most of our current RP affiliations and/or stories once the expansion hits and we have a hundred new venues and a thousand new concepts and themes to work with.. so if ever there was time to tell people we never REALLY liked (or complete strangers) to go eff themselves, it's now!

Well, it's just a theory! I could be totally off-base. Just mah two gil, as they say~

Zhavi · **04-22-2015, 09:32 PM**

(04-22-2015, 09:05 PM)Foxberry Wrote: I personally just wanted to say that, after sleeping and working on finals for the past few hours I haven't had a chance to check this thread till now. Though I have read through most of the replies or at least quickly did on some of the longer ones (I do apologize for not a heavy reading through some), and I began to get a little lost of what exactly happened to the thread itself. This being said I'm probably going to go ahead and step away as well. I feel I've said what I had to and that's that.Â

I will say though, I was not personally posting in this thread to -search- for RP or to even address that. As I said some posts back, I literally don't have the time to do heavy searching for rp or making a lot of connections. Partially that is my fault, but I do have a limited time I can give. I suppose I'm at fault to that extent; however I do have a full load of very heavy classes this semester that I'm trying to finish out- and I will continue to diminish until mid-may of what -I- personally can offer. It's just the life of a senior in an art school.Â That will change however once my semester is finished (or finals are done anyway).

My personal view however, was coming at this not from a lack-or-not-a-lack of RP but just an overall general tone of how things have gotten snarky/negative/etc on the forums in OOC discussions.

Initial posts commenting on negativity
- Speculation as to why the negativity was happening
  - Discussion of what the negativity entailed
  - People feeling ignored, or that there was a sort of in/out crowd
    - People feeling like there is a steep and sometimes insurmountable rp barrier of entry for new people.
      - Followup discussion on the perception surrounding and of that rp barrier.
    - Supposition that the Rep system could be part of the in/out crowd
      - Followup discussion of the nature of forums and how reputation does or does not affect negativity
    - General comments surrounding why there might be a perception of feeling ignored or overlooked
      - Followup discussion on feelings about that, and feelings on whether or not that perception is legitimate
(as I understand it)

McBeefâ„¢ · **04-22-2015, 09:32 PM**

So I don't know about rules.

The only other forum I have a lot of experience with is Something Awful, which started off lawless and eventually gained more and more rules, and conversations became more and more restricted.

Recently they changed it back, and it's been a lot better. Obviously certain areas of the RPC need to be heavily moderated (no shitposting in the IC areas, no shitposting on people's events), but other than that I think it's ok to just let people go wild, and just close any thread that gets out of hand.

That's sort of been the rules we've always had here, and I would be sad if we move to a more concrete set of rules.

Edit:

Oh, and they eventually had to get rid of post counts and such, because they did just breed elitism, and encourage people to shitpost just for building post count.

Fox · **04-22-2015, 09:47 PM**

(04-22-2015, 09:32 PM)Zhavi Wrote:
(as I understand it)

Thank you for the breakdown. It was just a lot to take in the last few pages.

crowmeleon · **04-22-2015, 10:01 PM**

I haven't posted in the forums in a really long time for this reason. I've only popped back in when people have brought up all the drama and I'm reminded it exists.Â

I think most of it is a product not of a changing atmosphere but a growing population. I really think the only thing we all can do is assume we're all contributing to the issue a little more than we think we are.

FreelanceWizard · **04-22-2015, 10:24 PM**

I think it's safe to say there's a lot of things going on, just from reading all the posts -- more people, an impending expansion pack, the pain caused by the crystallization of the RP community, probably some stuff going on in game that I don't know about, and more. Moderation, obviously, can't solve everything. We're going to take the steps outlined to be more transparent and help when people get really out of hand, but I guess I just want to say that we could all do with more:

Assuming good faith.
Remembering there's another person on the other side of the forum.
Trying to be the change we want to see.

My goal is not totalitarian moderation, nor is it letting everything be a free for all. It's a very, very thin line to walk and, frankly, I often get it wrong.

Only we as posters and members can make the environment we want.

Ryanti · **04-23-2015, 05:40 AM**

For the record, if anyone thinks and/or thought that I was one of those people that stopped hanging around here because I recently came back and got scared away because arguments/drama/tension/angry Eastern Siberian Brown Bears or what have you.. I'm not.

Really, it's just because of finals. I'm graduating. There's an element of stress and lack of free time there (Hence I'm posting at nearly 4am I mean maigod) which makes me proceed to think that, ah, I'm more or less relaxing and biding my time/posts until I have time... here. Which will happen after my immediate stressers (JESUSCHRISTTHISCAPTSTONETEST) go away.

I'm young still. I mean, young enough to still make a lot of mistakes. Logical ones, decision ones, social ones, etc. I'm far from perfect, I got my own issues, my own problems as I'm sure many of us have in life. I still haven't won against my demons, but I'm fighting. I still self-loathe myself often, but I'm fighting. I still make way too many mistakes in my eyes, but I know I don't always mess up. I have opinions, and I know some people or even many people might disagree with them. Do I fear being forgotten? Yes. Do I crave attention? Sure. Do I get frustrated and angry when I feel like I'm wrong or being accused of being wrong? Yup. Do I sometimes fall into a mental loop of always having to defend everything I do or.. who I am or.. my identity in general? Of course. But I know I am better off than I was even two years ago, and I did it in my own way by looking at things differently. Everyone has a different way of getting better, but I figure I could say a few things.

I wasn't gonna post here, by the way. It's difficult for me to have the desire to post in threads that deal with direct issues, even though I've read a ton of what everyone else had to say.

I've been roleplaying for about a decade and I have very vivid memories of stuff I've seen happen two years ago, five, ten... and when I was younger, I used to really just put myself in the thick of it. Arguments, issues, etc. I created them, jumped into them, finished them. All that. When this game re-launched in 2013, I was older, I was.. more experienced in this sort of thing. I have hurt people, and I have been hurt myself. But I still wasn't where I wanted to be, or needed to be. Not as a RP'er, but as a person in this community.

I kind of stepped back before I did anything when I came back recently, and said to myself... well I don't want that to happen again. And how can that work? Well... I just sort of, scrubbed all of the layers away in my thought process of why I do this and what I get out of it and everything.

And I just sort of realized a few things:

1.) I love stories and storytelling.
2.) I love creating things.
3.) I love writing.
4.) I love, absolutely LOVE roleplaying. Not just the action but the entire idea and philosophy behind it.

And I just kind of said to myself "Y'know, at the heart of everything, everybody I'm interacting with in a RP community love to do what I love to do." And I kind of hit a light bulb because I realized that I have a common interest with every living, breathing person on here right there.

Something clicked after that. All of a sudden, it was as if, for the first time, I was able to realize that going after what I truly want instead of trying to go after things I thought I had to have was the way to go.

Going back to me saying I wasn't going to post in this thread, it's because I mentally decide that it's not something that I would focus on normally because drama and infighting is not what I truly want and not how I personally choose to see this place as. That choice is everyone's to make.

Of course choosing what you see can't mean you can ignore what you cannot. So if I do participate, like I am now, I treat it as an unavoidable issue that I, in my opinion, will be able to create value for others with my input. That's what I learned in Marketing, anyhow. But.. stuff this thread is talking about, it's not something that I would learn to associate individual people/the RPC/anyone that RP's outside it with. In other words, the way I see the tension and the back and forth and all that, it's a state of mind. It's a temporary state of mind. Sometimes I still do it. I get mad/frustrated/what have you and say and do things. I have a passion for this, pride for this, and opinions for this, and sometimes that passion betrays me.

But then I eventually calm down, I eventually don't think about it anymore, I eventually move on no matter how serious and strong and hard my feelings were about the moment. Sometimes it's all in our heads. Apologies go a long way. Things are almost never as bad as you might think they are. If I was a betting man, if anything on this place makes you feel ignored, neglected, or attacked, it is probably not as bad as you think it is. I struggle with this too. But it's truth. Pure truth.

When that all goes away, when that's all gone, what am I? A person. I'm in the RPC. Why? Because I like to RP.

Who is the person I had drama with/argued with/etc.? A person. They are in the RPC. Why? Because they like to RP.

HOLY CRAP, WE LIKE THE SAME THING! THAT'S AWESOME!

That's what I try to focus on, and y'know what? I've had more fun on here than I ever had in 2013 when I came back for the first time. It certainly is going better for me. I am still a flawed human being with quirks and weaknesses, and I fail often. But, now my whole entire shitck is very basic. I'm here to tell stories with others, and everything else (friends, respect, phenomenal cosmic power, etc.) is just a bonus.

So I hope my rant makes sense. Thumbsup

And if not, then I at least tried.

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***Alothia*** · **04-23-2015, 07:20 AM**

So, I think that this thread has lost it's point. It's not a horrible thing, but I do think that it serves as an example to the exact thing that the thread was asking about in the first place. This thread is a microcosm of sorts, and if you look at it, you can see how things go on the website as a whole.

I understand that a lot of you are worried about the rules. They're not really any different than anything we've been doing, and instead are a way to make sure that we as moderatorsÂ are being consistent and fair. Like we've said before, if you guys think that things are being unfair or too heavy handed, let us know and we'll work on it together. I don't think that this mod team has been anything other than willing to listen to feedback on the site as a whole, and we all want this to work well for the best of all of us.

Now, that's not saying that there might not be some changes at first that are different, or that it might not take time to let things settle down. Please be patient with us.

I know that I sometimes don't always have the right things to say about every topic, but I know that I try hard as a moderator to be transparent as well as be level headed on things. I think that most of us try to do this as well. I am so happy to be a part of this community, even when we go through rough patches like this. We've gone through them before in the past, we will go through them again in the future, and we will get through this one. All I can say is stay with us.Â

Remember, if you ever have any questions or comments about things that we're doing, don't hesitate to contact us. We don't bite, unless you're into that. Wink

I think that taking a step back, reflecting on things, and letting tensions ride out is probably the best course of action for now. I hope everyone has a wonderful day!Â Heart

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