RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Gideon Aryeh · **08-10-2013, 04:12 PM**

Reppu nothing is absolute but I certainly would not be talking about Ice cream in a conversation about High end supercomputers especially not in a way to
-win- an argument or insult someone.

One can never take into account all of anyone. So I don't see the need to even have made the statement in the first place.

I'll be waiting on those pms with those instances you speak about.

Prove it.

Later

Twinflame · **08-10-2013, 04:18 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:07 PM)Meia Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:58 PM)Twinflame Wrote: I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.

Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.

Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.

May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.

I'm actually not taking sides. I have my stance and I have expressed it in other venues. I don't accept their culture, personally, but I understand where they are coming from. And I personally find it frustrating as well. (I didn't approve of a lot of the things that have gone on in my life due to prejudice against my race and orientation, but I understand why it exists. Understanding =/= approval or acceptance in any form.) My issue is with everyone focusing their energy on arguing with each other when that passion should be directed to SE.

I think Reppu has valid points as well as Unity. Do I agree more with one than the other? No. I think both could take from each other. The Japanese traditionalism is frustrating, upsetting, and not okay, but it is not the same as the religious extremism and execution of homosexuals in other countries. That is an analogy I cannot get behind.

And I'm willing to admit I was wrong in my interpretation of your intention with mentioning Rosa Parks.

I don't believe there are sides in here, so I wouldn't really accuse you of being on one. Apologies if I said something that might have implied such.

I think the conversation going on in here is kind of ridiculous at this point, since it's mostly people who say they agree with us telling us that we are making good arguments in the wrong way, which, how productive is that? Reppu has valid points dappled with disrespect and reactionary language, so it's not really going to get him anywhere. The crux is that certain folk seem to think this isn't worth getting angry about, or that discrimination hasn't happened yet. The mere suggestion that same-sex marriages might not happen portrays it as abnormal, so the discrimination has already occured.

Incidentally, I'd ask that people stop lumping Unity together. Unity has a lot of members in this community and we all have different opinions, even on this. Our opinions are given individually. It's not like I think whats-his-name is speaking for all the Blades of Nald'Thal.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:19 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:11 PM)Twinflame Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:44 PM)Reppu Wrote: And, flatly speaking? If you really think that SquareEnix is 100% discriminative, then by all means. However, truly discriminative individuals do not come out and say 'We are looking into it'.

Of course they do. This is absolutely what your basic every-day casual oppression sounds like. It is polite and calm because it is normal, and the person delivering it does not think they are being discriminatory. Nobody thinks Yoshi is going out of his way to be a jerk or anything. It is what he's doing, though.

(08-10-2013, 03:37 PM)Reppu Wrote: Quit with the power words like 'foolish'. You're hurting your cause every time you use strong words against your own fellows. We do not have to agree on the extent of things, but we're fighting for the same thing.

'Foolish' isn't a 'power word'. 'Toxic' and 'Unreasonable' are power words. Those ones are on you. You love power words.

(08-10-2013, 03:59 PM)Reppu Wrote: What is being asked is to put trust in Yoshida to deliver a favorable outcome. What is being asked is to understand the cultural difference, but not accept it. It is to show tolerance, but not tolerance to intolerance.

This is extremely misrepresentation. For one, no, I will in no way trust Yoshida. He is a business man out to get money. I don't think he's evil or a jerk or anything. I like him and what he does. I'm not going to trust him to not oppress, though, because he's already done so. I understand his culture and flatly deny it. I do not tolerate intolerance, nor will I tolerate the aspects of a foreign culture that cause intolerance. What, then, should I be tolerating in this situation? Yoshida's passive discrimination? To that I say: no.

And you are well within your rights to have that stance, even if I do not agree with all of it.

As for my use of power words? Power words are warranted when they are applicable. There have been toxic words used, by very few people, and unreasonable stances have been used, same as before.

To deny the use of power words, even when warranted? Is a denial of an attempt to bring light to what is truly NOT needed in this situation. But, again, this is all opinions. You have the opinion that I am using them, and those I am saying are using them, are not.

That is fine. I believe you are wrong that I am the only individual in this case to use them, but your opinion is fine to have.

And, really, what's the point of bickering the finer details? Let's just ignore our individual peeves with each other and just strike at the issue at hand, which is what we should be doing in the first place. Again, I am not here with the intent to make enemies, especially with people who should be brothers, sisters, and everything in-between in arms.

We have different points on how far we want to take things. Many of us feel we should not take it too far due to the empathy we've been shown. Many also feel that this empathy is discrimination still, if not 'passively'.

So, what do we do? Do we fight harder? Do we sit back and see how the hand we're dealt, while staying in the game? Is there a medium we can take?

I have no desire to fight with anyone in Unity in this. Any individuals from Unity that I feel I cannot speak with, I am flatly ignoring. And that is only one individual. Naunet is admirable, and you... well, we disagree on what actually counts as 'proving a case', but beyond that you present yourself well.

Yini Kihn · **08-10-2013, 04:19 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Sylas Wrote: I'm saying that, and I'll bold it this time, why should a company care?Â The goal is to make money, not to make a statement or change the status quo.

I think this is an overly cynical view. Yes, Square-Enix is a company, but a company is made up of individuals that have their own thoughts and feelings and moral concerns. The developers absolutely take pleasure in satisfying their customers and want to make them happy for reasons beyond profit.

If they can be convinced that this is the right thing to do, I believe they'll do it regardless of whatever extremely minor effect it might have on their bottom line. The only reason they've not committed to doing so yet is likely much more due to a misplaced concern about offending their customers than it is about money.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:20 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:18 PM)Twinflame Wrote: I don't believe there are sides in here, so I wouldn't really accuse you of being on one. Apologies if I said something that might have implied such.

I think the conversation going on in here is kind of ridiculous at this point, since it's mostly people who say they agree with us telling us that we are making good arguments in the wrong way, which, how productive is that? Reppu has valid points dappled with disrespect and reactionary language, so it's not really going to get him anywhere. The crux is that certain folk seem to think this isn't worth getting angry about, or that discrimination hasn't happened yet. The mere suggestion that same-sex marriages might not happen portrays it as abnormal, so the discrimination has already occured.

Incidentally, I'd ask that people stop lumping Unity together. Unity has a lot of members in this community and we all have different opinions, even on this. Our opinions are given individually. It's not like I think Reppu is speaking for all the Blades of Nald'Thal.

Woah woah woah. That's a bad example. Please don't get me glared at by a group I have no public or otherwise ANY affiliations with. Thanks.

Even if that's accidental, and I damn well hope it is, we're not trying to destroy people's reputations here. End of the day; we're allies of differing limits.

Domri Blackblade · **08-10-2013, 04:21 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:18 PM)Twinflame Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 04:07 PM)Meia Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 03:58 PM)Twinflame Wrote: I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.

Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.

Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.

May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.

I'm actually not taking sides. I have my stance and I have expressed it in other venues. I don't accept their culture, personally, but I understand where they are coming from. And I personally find it frustrating as well. (I didn't approve of a lot of the things that have gone on in my life due to prejudice against my race and orientation, but I understand why it exists. Understanding =/= approval or acceptance in any form.) My issue is with everyone focusing their energy on arguing with each other when that passion should be directed to SE.

I think Reppu has valid points as well as Unity. Do I agree more with one than the other? No. I think both could take from each other. The Japanese traditionalism is frustrating, upsetting, and not okay, but it is not the same as the religious extremism and execution of homosexuals in other countries. That is an analogy I cannot get behind.

And I'm willing to admit I was wrong in my interpretation of your intention with mentioning Rosa Parks.

I don't believe there are sides in here, so I wouldn't really accuse you of being on one. Apologies if I said something that might have implied such.

I think the conversation going on in here is kind of ridiculous at this point, since it's mostly people who say they agree with us telling us that we are making good arguments in the wrong way, which, how productive is that? Reppu has valid points dappled with disrespect and reactionary language, so it's not really going to get him anywhere. The crux is that certain folk seem to think this isn't worth getting angry about, or that discrimination hasn't happened yet. The mere suggestion that same-sex marriages might not happen portrays it as abnormal, so the discrimination has already occured.

Incidentally, I'd ask that people stop lumping Unity together. Unity has a lot of members in this community and we all have different opinions, even on this. Our opinions are given individually. It's not like I think Reppu is speaking for all the Blades of Nald'Thal.

But your signature is so pretty and eye catching that admittedly I remember it more quickly than the names. That's just my laziness. In my head it represented three people. I hardly think your FC and the opinions of its members are solely reflected by you all.

Rainbows are shiny things and I react to shiny. ): Sorry!

shotgunbadger · **08-10-2013, 04:22 PM**

Let's talk some empathy here, realtalk.

You want to 'understand and share' my feelings regarding my sexuality in the media? Rock on, I welcome it.

Ever feel like the absolute BEST case for most media is that they just ignore you, because the alternative is some really fucking disgusting stereotypes, so at least if they pretend you don't exist they can't actively insult you further?

Ever silently thank god when a character representing your sexuality just acts like a normal human being, because that's such a rare treat?

Is one of the reasons you love things like MMOs the fact that no matter what the devs put in, usually, you can just be a gay dude and since you're playing with other real humans instead of programs it doesn't matter the creator's views of gays because you can usually find a supportive environment?

How many times has 'we'll wait and see' meant 'we're going to ignore you' for something as basic as just acknowledging that you exist?

Do you often hear your sexuality tossed around as a casual insult, because that'd be a terrible thing to be after all, and at the very least in escapism you can just tune all that out?

That's why this sucks so much. This is one of the few refuges many of us has, and it's once again invaded by that big neon "YOU ARE NOT NORMAL" sign that follows a lot of us all our life.

Twinflame · **08-10-2013, 04:24 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:20 PM)Reppu Wrote: Even if that's accidental, and I damn well hope it is, we're not trying to destroy people's reputations here. End of the day; we're allies of differing limits.

It was accidental. I was trying to talk about someone else and switched up the names. Mahbad.

Ildur · **08-10-2013, 04:24 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Naunet Wrote: I'm going to have to request that you (and Reppu, and whoever else) stop lumping us together just because of a Free Company tag. Ildur is in Unity as well and actually disagreed with us. And that is okay.

Just leaving this here because, knowing the internet, someone is going to raise fingers and call Naunet a liar or something: Yes, I'm in Unity. I disagreed with my fellow companions and we are all quite fine with it.

At least until we initiate the Blood Games of Blood where we will duke it out to know who is right...! Wait, what do you mean that's not how arguments should work...?

Sylas Wrote:(...)why should a company care? The goal is to make money

Companies have a goal to make money, indeed, but they don't have a right to make it. This mentality leads to companies using shady business models and to not respect their customers. It also leads to customers being indulgent against company bullcrap and being unable to demand for improvement.

Dameon · **08-10-2013, 04:24 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:06 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Reppu Wrote: Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current.

Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy.

You don't know much about corporations, do you?

That response they gave us? That's Corporatese for "We don't give a flying fuck about your desires, because a) you are too small a minority to negatively impact our profits and b) most of you will buy our product anyway."

Corporatese is always polite, even when it's describing to you exactly how they are going to take their six-foot-long engorged penis and shove it directly up your virgin asshole.

Can you cool down on the passive aggressive patronizing? It's really detrimental to intelligent conversation, and smothers any good points you might, or might not, have.

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:24 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Rock Sandbourne Wrote: Reppu nothing is absolute but I certainly would not be talking about Ice cream in a conversation about High end supercomputers especially not in a way to
-win- an argument or insult someone.

One can never take into account all of anyone. So I don't see the need to even have made the statement in the first place.

I'll be waiting on those pms with those instances you speak about.

Prove it.

Later

I may PM them to you, but honestly? If you want to punish these people, or speak to them, or do whatever? That's your own issue, not mine. I am not a fan of witch-hunts, but it depends on how you answer this;

For someone stating that 1.0 lore should not effect the game, is it not fair to suggest Gilgamesh to them, due to a perceived instance of this style of roleplay being practiced there? Is it not fair to ask if they're from Gilgamesh, with the individuals who practice this?

Again, I am not insulting Gilgamesh or saying everyone and anyone is practicing this. It was simply 'Huh, I've seen people from Gilgamesh state this before. Are you from Gilgamesh?"

That's all it was. Can we simply leave it at that, and if you are so interested in who did it... find it yourself? I'm really not interested in this topic. I do apologize, though, if it heated you in any manner. But, I'd rather it dropped.

And no, this is not me backpedaling. This is me simply not caring, and accepting what you had to say.

Arelian · **08-10-2013, 04:25 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:19 PM)Yini Kihn Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 04:12 PM)Sylas Wrote: I'm saying that, and I'll bold it this time, why should a company care?Â The goal is to make money, not to make a statement or change the status quo.

I think this is an overly cynical view. Yes, Square-Enix is a company, but a company is made up of individuals that have their own thoughts and feelings and moral concerns. The developers absolutely take pleasure in satisfying their customers and want to make them happy for reasons beyond profit.

If they can be convinced that this is the right thing to do, I believe they'll do it regardless of whatever extremely minor effect it might have on their bottom line. The only reason they've not committed to doing so yet is likely much more due to a misplaced concern about offending their customers than it is about money.

I agree completely! The developers are very clearly making a game they enjoy, and that they want other people to enjoy. Though you can look at several Japanese video game companies in recent years and notice that they're making decisions purely for profit, rather than for consumer happiness. Capcom, anyone?

I do, however, firmly stand by the fact that Square Enix is teetering on the edge of financial ruin. FFXIV needsÂ to succeed or else the company isn't going to last much longer. They are not in a place to be making decisions that can, for whatever reason, negatively impact their bottom line.

I mean, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the "waiting for feedback" line is simply to buy them some time to see if they can afford to make a decision that can lose them money.

Naunet · **08-10-2013, 04:26 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:24 PM)Ildur Wrote: At least until we initiate the Blood Games of Blood where we will duke it out to know who is right...! Wait, what do you mean that's not how arguments should work...?

I shall wield the bricks with undeniable MIGHT! You will BOW to me!

Reppu · **08-10-2013, 04:28 PM**

(08-10-2013, 04:22 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: Let's talk some empathy here, realtalk.

You want to 'understand and share' my feelings regarding my sexuality in the media? Rock on, I welcome it.

Ever feel like the absolute BEST case for most media is that they just ignore you, because the alternative is some really fucking disgusting stereotypes, so at least if they pretend you don't exist they can't actively insult you further?

Ever silently thank god when a character representing your sexuality just acts like a normal human being, because that's such a rare treat?

Is one of the reasons you love things like MMOs the fact that no matter what the devs put in, usually, you can just be a gay dude and since you're playing with other real humans instead of programs it doesn't matter the creator's views of gays because you can usually find a supportive environment?

How many times has 'we'll wait and see' meant 'we're going to ignore you' for something as basic as just acknowledging that you exist?

Do you often hear your sexuality tossed around as a casual insult, because that'd be a terrible thing to be after all, and at the very least in escapism you can just tune all that out?

That's why this sucks so much. This is one of the few refuges many of us has, and it's once again invaded by that big neon "YOU ARE NOT NORMAL" sign that follows a lot of us all our life.

I'm going to toss a fun comment in here to sort of try to release a little steam from all parties; Normal is so out-dated.

That said, that depends, all of this? On the individual. I'm more tolerant than many, I admit that. I'm willing to put more hope into things, I admit that.

I simply ask people if they're willing to do the same. If they are not, that's entirely fine.

I am also strictly against volatile or otherwise toxic and abrasive... 'solutions'. I feel they offer nothing. This is part of my 'hyper feminist' thing earlier in the thread. This sect of feminists, not the group as a whole heavens no, are unfortunately some of the most vocal, and most toxic of the lot. This is the kind of thing we do -not- need in the LGBT community.

Granted, again, I do not like the term feminist or 'masculinist'. I prefer humanist. I want equality in all manner, for all genders. But that's neither here nor there.

Domri Blackblade · **08-10-2013, 04:28 PM**

I know me and a group of people will be dying our gear in rainbow colors and staging a small protest in game as well as 2.1 nears. Then tacking it onto an open letter with our arguments.

Killing them with fabulous.

« Next Oldest \| Next Newest »
Thread Closed Pages (21): « Previous 1 … 16 17 18 19 20 21 Next » Jump to page:

Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes