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Arelian · **03-11-2015, 06:42 PM**

Oh goodness. This is a subject I've been thinking about a lot lately, really. There are a few big'uns that stand out in my mind.

A poorly done application process.

I accept that my experience is my own, but if the process for getting into the guild is relatively lax that begins to tell me that there isn't good quality control on the type of people that get in and it lowers my overall expectations of what I'm going to get out of the guild right out the gate. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean a website application. Sometimes it's an IC interview process, sometimes it's both. Either way, if I can just ask for an invite and get one I'm likely not going to get what I want out of the guild.

Size

Straight up, I like keeping my group smaller. A huge guild/FC just ain't for me.

Skeevy leadership

This has always been a weird one for me because it's entirely subjective and the how's and why's of it changes every time it pops up. If I see anything that makes me get all frowny and it's either coming directly from the officers/leadership or seems to be a big part of the guild's culture, I'm out. This ranges from certain genders getting certain treatment to character's being gross individuals and the players just not acknowledging that fact. It's important to know when you're playing a character that others might find creepy!

And my biggest one...

No Rules.

I've been privy to a shocking amount of guild/FC drama that could have been outright avoided if there were posted rules somewhere that made it clear that certain behavior was not accepted.

There are probably more, but those are definitely the ones that stand out in my mind.

Magellan · **03-11-2015, 06:57 PM**

I'll have to second.... third....fourth? The voice chat thing. I simply do not like it in my games. I like a chatty FC chat, and voice chat kinda kills that.

Tyndles · **03-11-2015, 06:59 PM**

-When I join a new FC, it's probably going to be to do raidy stuff with them, and I will be in whatever voice chat they want, but if they expect me there every day, there's a problem.Â Voice Chat for me is for raids or maybe FC meetings, and maybe to hang out a little bit before and after.Â Otherwise I don't want to be there.Â So require voice chat for raids, but nothing else or I'm out of there.

-You have to have a real application process.Â Like actual interviews and stuff.Â If you invite me just because I ask, then you're probably full of people that are bad too.

-Open door policy with officers is important.Â If I don't feel I can contact an officer with an issue because they don't have the time to hear me, or I'm worried I'll get shunned/frowned at for "wasting their time with something trivial"Â then there's a problem.

kitakaze · **03-11-2015, 07:11 PM**

(03-11-2015, 06:21 PM)Mamushi Wrote:
(03-11-2015, 05:24 PM)kitakaze Wrote: "Vent/Teamspeak/etc. Â required."

No, thanks, if I can't type fast enough for you, Â you're not taking your time to enjoy the game.

I prefer voice chat for raids as its faster and easier to hit a hotkey to call out mechanics as well as dodge them. If you're wasting time typing, you risk being hit and dragging the rest of the party down with you. Don't be that guy. If its that much of an issue start your own voice-free static instead of complaining and expecting the group to cater to you.

Voice chat as a replacement for FC/LS chat is weird though, I'll give you that.

Sorry to hear you're having problems with somebody trying to raid like that. Sad

Â it sucks when someone goes off on people for no good reason. I usually assume it's a lack of paying attention... not quite sure how raids fit into my description of "taking your time" but a fair point none the less.

Telluride · **03-11-2015, 07:22 PM**

Since I don't have a guild, and but have actually been interested in having a good one for a long time, I do have a lot of thoughts on the matter. They aren't necessarily fair ones. However, they come from somewhere. I have been an officer in several guilds and in several games over the last nine years; some fell apart due to this or that, and some I didn't WANT to leave, but they weren't moving to a game I wanted to play, so I had no choice. I'm likely going to come off sounding pretty brazen in this, but it's a sticky subject to me, and I am not afraid of being straightforward.

So, consider this what I keep in mind when looking at guilds, having been both blessed and burned in the past:

1) Size - small is NOT what I want

Unlike Sylas, I do NOT want a small guild. At all. I have some good friends with whom I'd have already guilded up with were it not for this personal restriction. In a game that offers so many linkshells and a really comprehensive friend-list system, I don't need a guild for socialization or finding friends or just to hang out. If I am ever, EVER the only person online in a guild, even if it's 4am, I am looking for the door.

Guilds need people to survive, because that's what they are - collections of people with some common bond or interest. What I want from a guild is a collection of people with whom I can chat, RP, or do PVE at a moments notice... or work together for larger, more common goals. That requires people to be IN the guild. There's nothing I can do in a small guild that I can't do in a linkshell, and having too few people means that one bad day or season, and I'm wearing an empty tag. I can handle a large number of people - give them to me. Quantity DOES have a quality of its own, even if it means you CAN remove the problem people and still have folks left over.

And guess what? If you get cliques, a Big guild can handle it. Small guilds risk becoming just a clique with a house and a community storage chest. That's great... until a few members get hit by RL, and then your guild is four people not knowing what to do next. That's not a guild; that's a circle, to me.

2) More than rules: A code of behavior,

My best guild experiences were the ones in which we welcomed members when they came online, new or old. It's amazing what such a simple little gesture can do. While every guild should have its rules - which others have already touched on - I find it MORE important to create a place where people are given direct and positive reinforcement for being part of the team. If no one says hello when you come into your guild, why are you in it?

3) Officers who understand the balance of power and responsibility

This is a sticking thing to me. The point of having guild officers at all is to give structure and content to a group, and to initiate actions needed to keep these things. Too often, I see guild leadership become a thing where 1-3 people claim all the power - "Our decisions are final" - but refusing the responsibility that comes with it. At least twice in my time, I accepted an "officer" position that took jobs and responsibilities off the "big wigs", but gave me and the other people busting their arses to make the guild run smoothly absolutely no say in important matters. I quit two guilds, over time, whose superior officers told me point blank that I, as a fellow officer, still had zero say in what they did, but expected me to work just as hard - and harder in the case of those two - to make it all WORK. No. If I'm pulling the load, I get a say in where it goes, or I ain't takin' the work. Pure and simple.

4) "RP Guild" instead of "RP Friendly"

Hard experience has told me that "RP Friendly" means the opposite of what it says, in the long run. I don't want to be in a non-RP guild, since RP is my favorite part of the MMO experience. When a group says it is "RP Friendly", it means to me that it is a social guild and can't make up its mind, and tried to have it both ways. It doesn't work for me in the long run, in every experience I've had. Eventually, you get a critical mass of RPers and people who don't care about RP, and resentments build, and when a group just says it is "RP Friendly", it means that SOMEONE in the core membership, high in the ranks, doesn't really like RP but is just tolerating it. I respect Non-RP guilds more than "RP Friendly" ones because at least they know who they are. Know who you are as a guild.

5) A common story big enough to take all kinds of characters

Look, there will always be themed guilds, and I think that's a GOOD thing. Military-themed guilds can be spectacular when they are made up of people who like that. I did, for a long time in the 2000s, but not so much anymore. The point is that an RP-oriented guild should have some energizing, stimulating theme/story/concpt that DOES link together all its members in some fashion, and that allows individual stories to flourish while still powering the whole. It can be done, and it doesn't have to be complex. It just needs...

6) Enthusiasm

This is the single biggest trait I look for in RP, in RP partners and colleagues, and groups. Are you enjoying yourself? Are you into your story and characters? Can you spare enough of yourself to give others the good time that we're all here for, so that they will want to do so for you? If a guild lacks an overall general enthusiasm for what it is, who is in it, and where it is going, it's just a holding pen and a storage facility, in the long run

7) A Consciousness of the Community

To start to bring this rant to a close, I'd say that this element was missing in several groups that I joined over the past decade. Balmung has a lot of people, and it is inevitable that your guildies will want to meet and have fun with people outside it. Do that! Host events! Maintain a public as well as a private face. We aren't gaming in a vacuum. But.... don't send out blind invites? Recruit by RPing IN THE COMMUNITY, let new people see what your members are and do, and let them decide!

Now, there's plenty more, but it starts to come to the individual level after this, and that's not our thread's subject.

I realize that I probably come out sounding terribly picky and elitist in this, but I guess I would prefer that to being wishy-washy. I have been in good guilds, and in ones that weren't very good, and seen the two types become one another. Also, I am very much willing to put my money where my mouth is. I don't want to build a guild from scratch, and I don't wear a guild tag on Nathan, because I haven't found the right offer, and I don't want to waste a guild's time and goodwill when I can't find a good fit. The linkshells and the people I've met in FFXIV have been some of the greatest in my gaming career, and I'd rather keep riding that wave of awesomeness than join something that I feel uncertain about.

Kage · **03-11-2015, 07:46 PM**

Actually something else that will lead me to leave is if I see someone in the guild that I view as... counter-productive to my enjoyment of the game. There are guilds I will never touch after having been in a guild with a certain person because I despise their attitude and behavior. Woe is me - always. Not supportive of the community, quite negative and anytime they need to actually describe someone it is as a retard or idiot.
Plus these types are also the type to take take take and never give back to the FC. Takes thousands of gils worth of raiding items and nothing back. Or trash.

Magellan · **03-11-2015, 08:07 PM**

@Telluride: I don't agree with everything you said, but I love your passions on it Big Grin

#2 is a huge deal for me, and I completely agree! If you can't say hello to people when they log in, why are you there? Why invite people into your guild if you don't ever intend on talking to them? Obviously you won't be able to catch every single person who logs on, but making others feel welcome and valued should be the most basic of concepts on who you share your guild space with. If I find myself in a guild that doesn't greet each other, or worse, only greets the popular people, I'm looking for the door.

#3 - I hate when officers assume the mentality of 'the guild should serve me' as opposed to vice versa. If you agree to an officer role, like it or not you are assuming the responsibility to provide the lifeblood of the guild. no other way to put it. If you don't have the time to assume such a massive undertaking, don't become an officer! No one will fault you for that. Officers who take the time to assist the guildmemers in whatever they need will propigate a culture in which others want to assist and help. Officers are the number one deterent to cliques that can absolutely kill a guild.

Elaris · **03-11-2015, 08:07 PM**

(03-11-2015, 07:46 PM)Kage Wrote: Actually something else that will lead me to leave is if I see someone in the guild that I view as... counter-productive to my enjoyment of the game. There are guilds I will never touch after having been in a guild with a certain person because I despise their attitude and behavior. Woe is me - always. Not supportive of the community, quite negative and anytime they need to actually describe someone it is as a retard or idiot.
Plus these types are also the type to take take take and never give back to the FC. Takes thousands of gils worth of raiding items and nothing back. Or trash.

I have dealt with this several times and each time I was leader I always had the urge just to boot them from atmosphere that I wanted however I always stopped by other officers. I never did understand why some people would want to be apart of a group but would alienate themselves with the way they would talk down to people, troll fellow members, and just not listen to what is asked of them. The worse thing about those members too is if they have friends backing them up whenever an issue brought up that involves that troublemaker. I had run a guild for 4 years now and the things I had seen and put up with really caught up to me at this point.

Quote:1) Size - small is NOT what I want

Unlike Sylas, I do NOT want a small guild. At all. I have some good friends with whom I'd have already guilded up with were it not for this personal restriction. In a game that offers so many linkshells and a really comprehensive friend-list system, I don't need a guild for socialization or finding friends or just to hang out. If I am ever, EVER the only person online in a guild, even if it's 4am, I am looking for the door.

Guilds need people to survive, because that's what they are - collections of people with some common bond or interest. What I want from a guild is a collection of people with whom I can chat, RP, or do PVE at a moments notice... or work together for larger, more common goals. That requires people to be IN the guild. There's nothing I can do in a small guild that I can't do in a linkshell, and having too few people means that one bad day or season, and I'm wearing an empty tag. I can handle a large number of people - give them to me. Quantity DOES have a quality of its own, even if it means you CAN remove the problem people and still have folks left over.

And guess what? If you get cliques, a Big guild can handle it. Small guilds risk becoming just a clique with a house and a community storage chest. That's great... until a few members get hit by RL, and then your guild is four people not knowing what to do next. That's not a guild; that's a circle, to me.

2) More than rules: A code of behavior,

My best guild experiences were the ones in which we welcomed members when they came online, new or old. It's amazing what such a simple little gesture can do. While every guild should have its rules - which others have already touched on - I find it MORE important to create a place where people are given direct and positive reinforcement for being part of the team. If no one says hello when you come into your guild, why are you in it?

I love these two because I honestly always preferred the smaller guilds because it always seemed like it would be easier for me to befriend everyone but whole clique issues does come into play. What I'm saying is I now see what you're saying as how bigger guilds may be something I might look into the future. I want to be apart of a group, I do not want to be the outsider trying to fight to be accepted amongst the people I want to be around. I always made sure to not display favoritism of any sort which seems to happen with cliques which does bring me to point two. I always made sure to have my officers greet people whenever anyone would log in because I agree. I always liked being acknowledged whenever I logged in even if the person and I were not exactly on talking terms. It is just the polite thing to do and far too often I see friends only greeting each other every single time and not the new guy, or somebody they just don't care for.

Cato · **03-11-2015, 08:09 PM**

I'm lucky enough to feel very comfortable within the Free Company that I'm currently a member of! I have, however, had some very unfortunate experiences in other guilds both in FFXIV and in the other MMO's that I've played over the years.

So, here's a list of things that I've encountered in the past:

- Sexual favours in exchange for special treatment. I've seen multiple role-players seduce guild leaders and/or officers for additional IC power. It's even more dodgy when it involves OOC flirting as I've seen multiple guilds and friendships ruined over desperate guild leaders/officers being led astray by the desires of femme fatales and even some men too!

- Guilds that forbid members from posting on discussion sites such as this one. They claimed it was to protect their reputation but it's something I'm firmly against. Preventing people from engaging the wider community just doesn't sit well with me.

- Quiet chat channels. I need a guild's chat to be fairly active. Friendly chatter really makes someone feel more welcome and engaged after all!

- Poor quality role-play. It's a major turn off if the quality of role-play across the board is abysmal.Â

- Players who are super sweet on a site such as this but when taken up on their offer for role-play end up being very manipulative, frigid and nasty.

- Circle jerks. This is a big one for me. I really can't stand them, especially when it's the same people constantly fawning over each other and never making an outsider feel welcome.

cuideag · **03-11-2015, 08:18 PM**

Size. I do like my FCs small and close-knit. Which is not to say I only want to interact with a small group of people, no, but I am much more comfortable in smaller groups. Blame it partially on anxiety issues, partially on just feeling like a smaller group lets everyone's voice and presence be heard and seen that much better. Which isn't to say that I don't like growth, but I have come to genuinely believe that smaller groups with careful growth tend to retain a stronger, more amicable FC culture.

Unreasonable requirements. Echoing so many others especially regarding voice chat requirements. I don't do the chat that often as it stands, I am absolutely not going to be told it's a mandatory thing. Noooo thanks. Also, PVE requirements. I would rather be able to help people catch up on content than be in a group that intentionally bars people who have not done X or Y encounter. Extreme hardcore raider mentality is an instant turn-off. Community is more important to me than ilevel or achievements because it is hella fun and hella rewarding helping people through to see content they might not otherwise get to see for whatever reason.

Behavior. If I spot someone being abusive or just gross then the first thing I will do is look at the FC tag. I have a pretty low tolerance for certain types of behaviors and I will definitely avoid FCs if there are problematic people tied to them, ESPECIALLY if those problematic people happen to be in the leadership of said FC. I'm kind of a jerk, maybe, but I don't feel obligated to hang out with people I can't stand.

IC /FC chat. This one might be a bit weird. I used to look specifically for in-character guild chats but honestly it just doesn't work for me anymore because I feel it takes away from RPing 'in person' as it were. I like FC chat to be active so I can get to know my fellow FC mates and coordinate things from there, or just goof off and enjoy whatever shenanigans are going on. Strict IC requirements for private channels stifle that for me and it is for that reason that I generally avoid IC LSes for the most part.

C'kayah Polaali · **03-11-2015, 09:13 PM**

(03-11-2015, 06:26 PM)Lilithium Wrote:
(03-11-2015, 06:22 PM)Manasas Reed Wrote:
(03-11-2015, 06:14 PM)Lilithium Wrote:
(03-11-2015, 05:03 PM)Manasas Reed Wrote: For me personally, anytime I see or hear "sure we'd love to have you, just join our website and apply there" I immediately am peacing outta that joint.
As an FC leader I can honestly say the use of a website is for organization purposes. Especially if it's a bigger FC. There's only so much we can cram in the message of the day and being on a site means we can put a calender up for people to check for future events. Sadly you'll be a bit out of luck for a lot of places to join since this is a rather common requirement.

Also with Sastra on keeping an eye on this since it's something I might use

When it comes to joining a group...Hmmm. Not many things will make me shy away. A big thing might be favoritism towards a member or certain members, especially if its someone who is messing up and not answering for it.

It's a requirement that quite frankly, in my opinion needs to go away. I'm all for having to check the website for updates, events etc. Just don't want to have to sign up to apply
Ahhh that's a bit different then Â We have an apply section on our FC but usually it's for those who can't catch us online so it's an easier place to go.

Same here. We're in a little bit of a special case because we're basically only a RP group, and we solely play villains. Our forums have information about plots in progress, and we keep them private so that folks outside of the group can't see what we're planning. Members who don't register aren't going to be able to see them. Likewise, we have a job board that requires it's own registration (mainly because it uses an external tool), where we keep track of a dozen or so concrete RP hooks at any time, so not registering for that means you can't use that tool.

In both of these cases, though, the sites are there as tools to help enable more RP, and they're not strictly required. At the same time, not registering for them does make it harder to find RP.

Aaron · **03-11-2015, 09:22 PM**

What scares me away generally is the community.

I've seen FCs where it was a argument everyday to FCs where you get called stupid if you didn't know something.

I do love when the accuser gets their own medicine though. Nothing better than being applauded for making a annoying member quit the FC by repeating "Your argument is invalid".

ArmachiA · **03-12-2015, 03:47 AM**

Oh man, I haven't needed to look for an FC in about 12 years, since that's how long I've been running (Or helping to run as the case is now) the Night Blades.

Some of these I am thinking "Oh, you wouldn't like our FC then" because we do require Mumble for Raids, have a website for applications (We're large, you don't go to our website you miss out on A LOT of events), we're large, and I'm hella guilty about not saying hi when people log on (The FC is so chatty in the FC and LS I figure I'll talk to them eventually).

Erik Mynhier · **03-12-2015, 04:58 AM**

Well to be honest this looked like an interesting topic that I thought for sure would be full of "Our FC is different, join us". I really am impressed by this community. I saw a similar thread on my TESO forum and it degraded in like ten posts into a recruitment thread. Good job guys, give your selves a round of applause.

That said if I didn't own my own I would avoid FCs with cliques. In most games in fact I don't belong to a guild unless the game "requires" it. Mostly for guild drama and backstabbing. Cliques are my kryptonite, they suck the fun right out of the game for me.

Kilid/Torhe · **03-12-2015, 05:32 AM**

I think someone, way up in the thread, mentioned 'RP friendly' FCs/guilds.Â I second that so much :3 Commit, or don't.Â There's no doubt a market for the more casual style, but if you're a roleplayer, it just makes sense to have a guild that's a little more dedicated to the roleplay in my eyes.

Cliques are also a big thing.Â Sadly, they spring up in guilds of all sizes, and I've seen small communities fall apart, and larger guilds implode due to them, so if they're spotted, they get stamped on wherever possible.

And the most important thing?Â Timezones.Â Being an EU player has led, in the past, to some depressingly quiet times as the largest and most suited guilds all seemed to be US-based, with regular events at awkward times mid-week, or just frustratingly late at weekends.Â A problem that is, sadly, prevalent across just about every game with global servers.

A lot of the EU-based guilds may be smaller overall, but at last I can be confident there'll be people on at the same time as myself.

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What scares you away from a FC/Guild?

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