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Flynn Rosenberg · **10-18-2016, 02:14 AM**

(10-18-2016, 02:10 AM)Teadrinker Wrote: I tend to put this in a very realistic light.

So on Japanese servers, their Eorzen characters are speaking Japanese. They are natively Japanese so it very likely doesn't have the same fantasy connotation as it does for us in America/EU/Elsewhere.

Effectively, there would be no differences between the two spoken languages besides maybe an accent and dialect changes which they quantify for in the lorebook.

TL;DR Same language from what I can gather here. Your Doman character might have a Doman accent or dialect but they are speaking the same language as the Eorzeans. Your Doman might be familiar with Ninja names and abilities where your Eorzean character would not.

OOCly, you can think of this as both areas of the world speaking English if you're from America with some differing words and accents thrown in.

If you're from Japan it would be like both Doma and Eorzea speaking Japanese expect some differing words and accents thrown in.

ICly, this means they both speak "Common", each with a slightly different inflection.

This is just for the Raen/Domans. The Xaela are their own beast obviously. That's how I interpreted it anyway, someone throw a flag at me if I missed anything important.

I think you hit it spot on. That's how I see it too. Since it says Xaela use Ancient Auri I can only assume that's Fantasy Japanese to English players, like they stick to the old ways while the others don't.

I doubt any more needs to be said at this point or it's just gonna drag on. We're adults, let's just accept what's been written and laid out for us.

Caspar · **10-18-2016, 03:17 AM**

(10-18-2016, 02:14 AM)Flynn Rosenberg Wrote:
(10-18-2016, 02:10 AM)Teadrinker Wrote: I tend to put this in a very realistic light.

So on Japanese servers, their Eorzen characters are speaking Japanese. They are natively Japanese so it very likely doesn't have the same fantasy connotation as it does for us in America/EU/Elsewhere.

Effectively, there would be no differences between the two spoken languages besides maybe an accent and dialect changes which they quantify for in the lorebook.

TL;DR Same language from what I can gather here. Your Doman character might have a Doman accent or dialect but they are speaking the same language as the Eorzeans. Your Doman might be familiar with Ninja names and abilities where your Eorzean character would not.

OOCly, you can think of this as both areas of the world speaking English if you're from America with some differing words and accents thrown in.

If you're from Japan it would be like both Doma and Eorzea speaking Japanese expect some differing words and accents thrown in.

ICly, this means they both speak "Common", each with a slightly different inflection.

This is just for the Raen/Domans. The Xaela are their own beast obviously. That's how I interpreted it anyway, someone throw a flag at me if I missed anything important.

I think you hit it spot on. That's how I see it too. Since it says Xaela use Ancient Auri I can only assume that's Fantasy Japanese to English players, like they stick to the old ways while the others don't.

I doubt any more needs to be said at this point or it's just gonna drag on. We're adults, let's just accept what's been written and laid out for us.

The Xaela's naming scheme doesn't reflect Japan in any way though, and the connection between Xaela and Doma is otherwise pretty tenuous in the lore.

It strikes me as a bit unfair to characterize the prior concerns as childish when the same sort of hairsplitting is going on in the Dragoon thread and it's gained considerable acceptance. Had this not been lore based around Fantasy Japan, I doubt the reaction would be the same. I think it's honestly worthy of consideration.

There's no contradiction in the JP version because Japanese is the default. That's fine with me, but it doesn't clear up the difference in untranslated terms between versions. Select phrases don't just evolve a totally different syntax and written form out of nowhere. Sure, what we're looking at is an approximation of fantasy equivalents translated to real world languages to make them comprehensible to us, (rather than actual Japanese and English) but the terms are left untranslated for a reason, generally to reflect words that are not mutually intelligible. I'm fine with the languages in-setting being the same, but the difference in terminology, either the untranslated JP terms in English, or the untranslated European terms in Japanese, won't disappear as easily. There really ought to be a reason for it, even if it's as simple as them picking up terminology from another local region.

Related to that, the other possibility I've also considered is that the untranslated terms aren't Doman, but this I would have to research. They could be terminology that came from the homeland the Ninja traveled from. Or they could have been loanwords originally from another region near Doma. If the entire language is not separate, or they aren't bilingual, that would seem pretty reasonable as an explanation for divergent vocabulary, stark enough to necessitate that the writers reflect the difference with the contrast between alphabetical and syllabic words.

It's probably overthinking, as ability and character names are decided to give a certain feel, not necessarily be meaningful in every circumstance, or reflect world building so much as just be cool. But I dunno, it still seems fishy to me. I went out of my way to never use <this kind of speech> as much as possible when playing and even I still think that centuries of isolation have a much more profound effect than twenty years of contact.

Then again, bigger than even things like this are the questions that arise in my mind when I read certain ability or weapon names. The Dragons in Stone Vigil and elsewhere occasionally have Slavic names, yet there is no culture we've seen that demonstrates a similar naming scheme. Does the existence of the Vajra daggers for NIN suggest a Vedic/Buddhist equivalent in setting with a similar spiritual symbology? Does the Yasha and Ashura gear suggest there are people in the world who believe in, or actual demigod-like war demons of the same nature? In JP, Forbidden Chakra is named Yin/Yang Qi Slash, Shoulder Tackle is named Rasetsu/Rakshasa Attack, etc. We don't see these things and yet they're inlaid within the game regardless of the cultural baggage associated with the terms, so it's probable that these kinds of questions never even occur to the designers.

Valence · **10-18-2016, 04:09 AM**

We have to keep in mind that the common HYUR language, while probably evolving a lot over centuries, has also a strong base coming from all those previous eras. Especially the allagan one that unified pretty much everything. So there is that too.

Jana · **10-18-2016, 10:52 AM**

I think it's worth noting that unless the graphics are different on a JP server, all the text we see around Eorzea like the "No Entry" signs would still be in "English". In that case, I'd take it that the characters' spoken language, even on JP or EU servers, will still be a separate, English-y language, and won't resemble the Japanese-y native language of Doma.

Valence · **10-18-2016, 11:33 AM**

Honestly, I just roll with all of those language being fictionnal languages. Some take inspirations from japanese traditional culture, others... less. Trying to equate them to IRL stuff is a slippery slope. There is just Auri, Common Hyur, Common Hyur (Doman), etc etc. Why do we need more?Â

English (or japanese for the japanese audience) just happens to be the narrator language. A convenience. Using IRL languages to flavor fictionnal languages ingame is... weird to me. It's not Earth. It's Eorzea.

Kilieit · **10-18-2016, 11:42 AM**

I'd like to reiterate additional context, also from the lore book I added in my post on the last page.

Othard and Ilsabard/Eorzea were, again, completely separated for hundreds of years [ETA: actually thousands; see below] and only reunited in the last 20.

I think comparing native Othardian languages' relation to Eorzean to American English vs British English is extremely unrealistic. England and English-speaking America were only socially separated a couple hundred years ago, and they kept in contact with each other via letter and trade and soon telephone, then video, and so forth, which stopped the languages diverging from one another too much. Othard was completely isolated for far longer than that.

How would they speak the "same language, but with minor differences" after all that time?? Unless people from Hydaelyn are magically 1000x better at maintaining the exact same language on two sides of a barrier than real people, I don't buy it. Without telecomms and regular contact, real life humans can't even maintain the same language across about 20 miles and 10 years.

It's not a case of "accepting what we were given", it's a case of not taking quotes out of context and assuming that's the be-all and end-all of the lore.

We're at a disadvantage for interpreting this lore book in ways that make sense until it's in everyone's hands who wants a copy or some scummy pirate releases full scans online. We cannot jump to complete conclusions based on the information from one paragraph from one page alone. The book was intended to be taken as a whole, and the lore about each region is scattered across multiple pages accordingly.

Like a real life history book, this book is not a set of objective tenets - it requires user interpretation to understand. Basing that interpretation around one paragraph from one page, and completely ignoring another, longer set of text, because it doesn't fit the conclusion you drew from the first paragraph... it's bad scholarship.

Sorry I'm still high key salty about the WoW UVG and it's not helping me be sweet about this lore book either.

Valence · **10-18-2016, 12:24 PM**

Probably closer to the difference between old frank and modern french? It's very hard to understand. But you can still get half the words and roots, if not more.

Kilieit · **10-18-2016, 12:34 PM**

I lowballed it because it was early in the morning and I only skimmed the paragraphs again, but re-reading and:

[Image: 5e4935d140.jpg]

Thousands of years.

More like the difference between ancient Egyptian and modern Egyptian, except pretend the Egyptian people were split in half for the interim 2000 years and then expected to understand each other afterwards.

Valence · **10-19-2016, 03:38 AM**

I don't know. The thing is, even the statement that they use 'common hyur', is if I recall correctly, more accurately using 'the common tongue of the hyur'. It doesn't really say 'the Common Tongue of the Hyur' (emphasis on capitals). It can be anything, the common tongue of the Hyur (implied, the Hyur from Doma), for example.

So, there is that.

foxfirestorm · **10-19-2016, 08:57 AM**

I'm just going to drop something in here, which may have already been brought up, but I saw someone talk about how in game its one way, but the lore book says another (or something like that)-- Let us all remember that the Echo is an automatic translator in our heads and to our lips.

So, while someone in Eorzea may hear a different language, we as the players hear it as "common". This is just some old lore from way back when, as I don't think its covered in 2.0 (It might be, but I'm old).

I now return to my popcorn eating ways and shadow lurking.
And sorry if that was irrelevant.

PS - Did that lore page say Dalmasca???
Doma and DALMASCA?!?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUYJZ3Odm7o

Caspar · **10-19-2016, 10:04 AM**

I'm rather excited myself. I'd heard the name in FFXIV's context before but I really couldn't remember where and chalked it up to a trick of my dwindling memory.

Sounsyy · **10-19-2016, 10:16 AM**

(10-19-2016, 08:57 AM)foxfirestorm Wrote: PS - Did that lore page say Dalmasca???
Doma and DALMASCA?!?!

Yes, so far the three known Othardian city-states are Doma, Dalmasca (referenced in HW MSQ), and Rabanastre (referenced in early ARR MSQ).

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