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Isilme · **07-20-2013, 01:50 PM**

I think this was a very interesting read, and definitely potentially useful information and conjecture.

As people have pointed out, some of this doesn't seem to apply, but... really, we're talking about tribal mechanics here, and the miqo'te of the cities and the adventurer miqo'te are no more tribal than people living in New York.

There are still influences. Note the op mentioned how our own taboo on inbreeding stems from Feudal European policies enacted by the Royalty to keep wealth from concentrating and becoming a threat, rather than any selective biological benefit, and that in the long term inbreeding actually has biological benefits (Though 20 generations is hardly a 'short term' by human perception)

I think this should be seen as a tool, to make referencing 'traditional' miqo'te society a little easier. However, no one should feel bound by it, anymore than one should feel legally bound to give the Lord of the land first rights to bedding the new brides. in real life.

There are a few points I would refute, however.

1. Nunh's eating the children of the previous Nunh - I doubt culturally they would be able to support this. If selection of a Nunh, and what defines 'fittest' is truly in the hands of elder females, I doubt they would tolerate seeing their own children detroyed each time there is a succession, as sentient attachment to offspring is FAR stronger and long-lasting than simple instinctual attachment. If the previous Nunh were worthy, than his children are worthy, and it would be a waste to lose them because of succession, especially as humanoids mature far more slowly and require much more investment of resources to raise. Also, the miqo'te are pretty in line with the other races as far as moral values go, for the most part. If they casually killed their own kids, I doubt they would be so nice to the children of other races.

2. Miqo'te females experiencing estrous - This one we can discard as bunk. Miqo'te females - Seekers no less - are one of the more common races among prostitutes (Or pretending to be prostitutes in Limsa). Their playful, flirty nature seems to be canon, and even the Seekers in Forgotten Springs, the 'traditional' Seeker settlement, seem to enjoy trying to flirt with the Brass Blades stationed there. There did seem to be a lack of concern about the genderÂ of their partners, at least in the flavor text of 1.0, but that may have just been unique to the dancers at the Mining Concern. I would submit that this is easily proof enough that miqo'te have the same sexual needs and wants as the other races.

3. Crossbreeds are mules - This assumes that hyurans and miqo'te are as genetically divergent as horses and donkeys, which may not be the case. The lack of crossbreeds could quite easily be attributed to cultural taboos, and cultural preferences. In North American society, mixed race couples were HEAVILY frowned upon until recently, after all. We've been on the American continent for centuries, yet there has been very little effective blending. Before Ala Mihgo fell, the nations were also at war, and each one tended to have their dominant races (Seawolf Roegadyn in Limsa, Lalafel in Ul'Dah, and jointly Hyuran and Elezen in Gridania). The kind of mixing we're seeing now is a relatively new thing, brought about by refugees, and unprecedented mobility and freedom of movement between the three nations.

And finally, all of this can be contradicted anytime SE likes, because MAGIC CRYSTALS!

allgivenover · **07-20-2013, 02:26 PM**

(07-20-2013, 01:50 PM)Isilme Wrote: As people have pointed out, some of this doesn't seem to apply, but... really, we're talking about tribal mechanics here, and the miqo'te of the cities and the adventurer miqo'te are no more tribal than people living in New York.

Aside from the fact that I wasn't able to find a single NPC Miqo'te without a tribal name in the ARR beta or the brief times I checked out 1.0, I agree with you, but the absence of Miqo'te with a non-Miqo'te name does support that idea that although city-Miqo'te may not follow tribal customs, they at least originated from them.

I think it's a mistake that SE doesn't seem to portray any member of any race with a name that doesn't follow naming conventions, but you expect this stuff to be written by designers and artists, not scientists, so it's not surprising that the lore seems poorly thought out and/or begging more questions than it answers.

Now, I'm not going to tell other Miqo'te RPers they're wrong for breaking away from naming conventions as everyone has different goals when it comes to what they want from RP, and at this point I'd be alienating myself from a good number of the community if I did~ additionally a lot of the veterans were really in a tough spot, as there was no lore to be had at all in 1.0 really.Â

Callypgian did note that "You are free to use or disregard this information as you see fit when developing your own Miqoâ€™te backstory," and admits that this is based on real world science and not official in any capacity. It's an interesting read nonetheless, and I find that a lot of Sae and mine's ideas about the sort of tribal life the Rakka twins came from match this reasoning.

Elisea Renyven · **07-20-2013, 02:53 PM**

(07-20-2013, 02:26 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 01:50 PM)Isilme Wrote: As people have pointed out, some of this doesn't seem to apply, but... really, we're talking about tribal mechanics here, and the miqo'te of the cities and the adventurer miqo'te are no more tribal than people living in New York.

Aside from the fact that I wasn't able to find a single NPC Miqo'te without a tribal name in the ARR beta or the brief times I checked out 1.0, I agree with you, but the absence of Miqo'te with a non-Miqo'te name does support that idea that although city-Miqo'te may not follow tribal customs, they at least originated from them.

I think it's a mistake that SE doesn't seem to portray any member of any race with a name that doesn't follow naming conventions, but you expect this stuff to be written by designers and artists, not scientists, so it's not surprising that the lore seems poorly thought out and/or begging more questions than it answers.

Now, I'm not going to tell other Miqo'te RPers they're wrong for breaking away from naming conventions as everyone has different goals when it comes to what they want from RP, and at this point I'd be alienating myself from a good number of the community if I did~ additionally a lot of the veterans were really in a tough spot, as there was no lore to be had at all in 1.0 really.Â

Callypgian did note that "You are free to use or disregard this information as you see fit when developing your own Miqoâ€™te backstory," and admits that this is based on real world science and not official in any capacity. It's an interesting read nonetheless, and I find that a lot of Sae and mine's ideas about the sort of tribal life the Rakka twins came from match this reasoning.

I gotta say that this is in-depth and a very fascinating discussion. I do agree that folks should not be penalized by naming conventions, but there is also things to consider to. If you weren't raised by Seekers or Keepers for example, you might not have a 'specific' name that fits the conventional format. As there could be a culture clash if that makes sense?

allgivenover · **07-20-2013, 03:18 PM**

No, if you weren't raised by Keepers or Seekers as a Miqo'te, it's possible you wouldn't have a traditional Miqo'te name. I do wish this was represented in game.

I do enjoy that we have a variety of tribal and non-tribal Miqo'te RPers, though I do wish that we saw more inner-conflict between where these Miqo'te came from and where they are now. Sae made an interesting point in conversation with me, typically those from foreign cultures do not 100% assimilate even when they are born into the culture that is assimilating them, the traditions often linger for several generations.Â

So far it's been my experience in RP that Miqo'te characters are either totally tribal or have no attachment or conflict with their heritage whatsoever (aside from Ryanti - one of the largest aspects of his character is his conflict with his heritage). I think there's a lot of interesting inner and outer RP conflict between the two lifestyles that is being largely ignored by the greater part of the RP community, in some part due to the OOC rejection and/or dislike for what little tribal lore SE has given us.

Swift · **07-20-2013, 03:28 PM**

First of all, thank you so much, Calli. I hope you had as much fun writing as we did reading. It's all very interesting.

Second, I must apologize: the mentioning of the "I'll kill all of our enemies and eat their babies!" line was my fault. Its only context was meant to be used as a joke that was obviously incorrect in its implications at the time. I'm sorry that it didn't have enough clarification to suggest that it wasn't a Miqo'te-only dialog option.

With that out of the way, I have to say I'm kind of disappointed that I can't really bring any new points that haven't already been said to the table, here. I don't have any big, fancy science background to speak of (though I -am- a Graphic Design major going for his Bachelor's Degree... so I could definitely tell you if the colors you pick during character creation match up well, and what those colors may represent! I also do T-shirts, posters, and logos~ ;3), so I'm a little reluctant to do so, anyway, lol.

It seems that this whole thread is becoming a valuable resource, with many different perspectives. Personally, I feel that while all things must be considered, it's much easier to do so by starting with the basics (such as biology, physiology, instinct, and basic needs) and then gradually adding the complexities of the social, cultural, and environmental influences on top of those to--as some have already said--reach a middle-ground.

Though this is all fiction and fantasy, I feel much more immersed when the impossible is believable through more explanation than just "because... magic!" And so long as we have at least some semblance that there's some truth and reality that our imaginations are based off of, I'm content, and willing to suspend my belief.

Naunet · **07-20-2013, 03:41 PM**

(07-20-2013, 01:50 PM)Isilme Wrote: I think this was a very interesting read, and definitely potentially useful information and conjecture.

As people have pointed out, some of this doesn't seem to apply, but... really, we're talking about tribal mechanics here, and the miqo'te of the cities and the adventurer miqo'te are no more tribal than people living in New York.

I think that the fact that we are talking about tribal culture is exactly the reason why we should take this kind of analysis with a very heavy grain of salt.Â

Biology can sometimes have a tendency - especially when discussing sentient peoples in the context of evolution and population genetics - to "dehumanize" groups in a sense, in the effort to seek rational explanations for why things are the way they are. There are biologists out there who do think that humans are very much beholden to their instincts, just that our culture has given us a way to excuse those instincts. I'm not of that camp, and I feel that ignoring a species' capacity for abstract thought - even if they are a "tribal" society (which is no less a society than any other - means you are ignoring an extremely important variable in analysis. And that means that every conclusion drawn is biased and potentially even inconsistent with reality.

The miqo'te are a tribal people, yes, but they are also a sentient people with hundreds of years developing their own culture in addition to hundreds of years interacting with other cultures. Humans in real life have shown time and time again over the course of our own history that we are more than capable of acting for reasons that go well beyond instinct. The presence of religion in miqo'te culture would drive that even further.

Manari · **07-20-2013, 03:45 PM**

That was a hell of a piece on miqo'te culture. Very interesting theories and I pretty much agree with your thoughts on Keeper mating. I did have one thing that stuck out to me.

I just wanted to know where you heard that Keepers are nomadic? If you mean they move about the Black Shroud, I suppose that's possible. But there is no mention in the lore anywhere about the Keepers of the Moon being nomads at all. I've heard that about Lalafell lore, and you could certainly argue that some Seeker tribes could be nomadic, it fits. But all the lore supports the Keepers staying pretty well rooted within the Black Shroud. Unless you mean they don't settle in just one place within the Shroud. I could see that, but I still haven't seen that stated in the lore yet.

If it is in there somewhere, I would be very interested in reading about it.

FreelanceWizard · **07-20-2013, 04:04 PM**

(07-20-2013, 03:18 PM)allgivenover Wrote: So far it's been my experience in RP that Miqo'te characters are either totally tribal or have no attachment or conflict with their heritage whatsoever (aside from Ryanti - one of the largest aspects of his character is his conflict with his heritage). I think there's a lot of interesting inner and outer RP conflict between the two lifestyles that is being largely ignored by the greater part of the RP community, in some part due to the OOC rejection and/or dislike for what little tribal lore SE has given us.

I similarly bemoan this. Sad

IMO, miqo'te should have strong opinions regarding their tribal culture, and that should generate some conflict RP. I don't really see how a miqo'te who's aware of the culture couldn't have a strong opinion about it -- and those who came from tribal culture probably have some conflicted feelings about the city-state/adventurer cultures, and probably miss some of the elements of their home culture (such as, y'know, not seeing all of their fellow Seeker women being exotic sex workers). I know that I've, at least, tried to integrate these into my character's personality and backstory, though she generally doesn't make a big deal about it openly unless prompted.

allgivenover · **07-20-2013, 04:11 PM**

Quote:(such as, y'know, not seeing all of their fellow Seeker women being exotic sex workers)

This could actually be a consequence of how insignificant sex is too them culturally, we just don't know.

DimmerMeerkat · **07-20-2013, 04:23 PM**

(07-20-2013, 05:10 AM)Callipygian Wrote: Recent (Sub)Speciation of the Miqoâ€™te Clans

*snip**snip**snip*

This section, I'd like to discuss! You have sound reasoning, but I think that you left out one big detail about the difference between Keepers and Seekers that could have completely altered your conclusion.

Personally, I think the divergence happened much longer ago than you assume. My reasoning is this: Physical mutations. Keepers have sharp, pointed canines, large eyes that do not turn to "slits" in the light, and generally cooler skintones which... in other MMOs, has served as the aesthetic consequence of a lack of exposure to the sun. They also have larger ears and longer tails than their Seeker cousins. Seekers have slits for eyes that don't expand in the dark, no fangs at all, and warmer skin tones.

I think they key difference lies in diet and hunting routine. One subspecies is nocturnal, the other is diurnal. One probably eats more meats than the other. The other might eat more vegetation than the former. This all suggests to me that cultural views on mating came well after their "evolution."

I think that's another flaw with assuming that the divergence happened not long ago. Even small mutations like this would take much longer to evolve and become distinct.

Their mating structures are, I believe, simply a consequence of their nature. They naturally produce less males, therefore, they need to have developed customs, beliefs, or routines that ensure they are able to propagate their species and that their genetic material survives. I think the customs came after the natural order of things simply took its most logical course. Commitment to a single mate is even fairly recent in real-life human societies. Our ancestors were more than likely enjoying the company of the opposite sex in the same way a vast majority of the animal kingdom does--hit it and leave it. Tongue

The split could have evolved naturally, or it could have been influenced by their gods, because the existence of gods in Eorzea is objectively observable as far as I've gathered. I don't think it had much to do with sexual selection as much as it had to do with all facets of natural selection, however. Male Miqo'te do all have some markings on their faces that females sometimes lack, which you could consider a "flamboyancy" in the same way that human men having beards could be.

Myxie Tryxle · **07-20-2013, 04:29 PM**

(07-20-2013, 05:10 AM)Callipygian Wrote: Iâ€™ll be specifically describing the biological basis for these mating systems.Â Politics and sociology are not my fields of expertise, so there is plenty of room for these systems to be complicated by morality and ethics.

I'm enjoying the open dialog this discussion has bolstered.Â Most of the criticism seems to be stemming from the concerns which inspired me to write these two lines.Â Personally, I'm expecting a wide spectrum of potential cultures for Miqo'te to choose from, from the lost "# tribe" full of cannibals and baby-killers to the new "$ tribe" of highly refined and culturally sophisticated city-dwellers.Â As one poster stated, modern humans share very similar biology with the ancient Spartans (or Incas, or Maori, or Romans, etc.) but vastly different cultures and values.Â In my mind, biology changes very slowly while culture changes very quickly.Â It's up to you the player to decide where you fall on the cultural spectrum and how it has influenced your character and their tribe.Â I specifically avoided cultural and political ideas because there's too many for me to quickly and justly describe, plus it's not my place to define that important aspect of your character or their tribe.Â My goal was to provide a rational foundation of biology upon which others could build based on their own interpretations of culture and individualism.

Personally I want this to foster interesting RP, and good stories are driven by conflict.Â Culture clash leads to conflict, which is why I'm suggesting that Miqo'te culture should clash a little with what we consider normal human culture.Â If it does, we'll likely develop some awesome stories out of it.Â If we don't challenge the basic assumption that "Miqo'te culture is likely very similar to human culture because the devs that are writing it are human," we can't explore all the possibilities.Â In my mind, there's every reason to believe that a feline race would be culturally and biologically different from hominid races, and that this difference would be a good thing from a roleplaying perspective.

About the notion of killing the old nunh's children when you take over a tribe, I included that because a quest option exists that every character will encounter that complicates the issue.Â You're welcome to interpret it however you like.Â I included it for those who may not have leveled up to level 25 in the beta yet, thus hadn't encountered it.Â Personally, I envision a scenario similar to the New World, where Christian missionaries put a great deal of effort into stamping out the ancient practices of blood sacrifice.Â It probably doesn't happen now, but may have happened in the past, and may still happen in some lost, undiscovered tribe.

The idea of elder females pulling the strings of Seeker tribes to determine which males become nunhs is one that I alluded to, but didn't really endorse strongly.Â Given that there are 26 different tribes, I envision a spectrum here.Â One tribe may have males who rule with an iron fist where the females are completely subservient.Â Another may have powerful elder females and no male can even hope to become a nunh without garnering endorsement from at least one of these matriarchs.Â It's up to the players to decide where their tribe falls on this spectrum, and I expect this will lead to some very interesting struggles and RP storylines.

As for those who are uncomfortable that I've boiled the entire race down to a few underlying biological principles, I offer this wikipedia page on human mating systems and behavior.Â I'm personally of the opinion that humans are not nearly as divorced from nature as many would like to believe.Â I'm also incredibly envious of those who have a more positive outlook on life and deeper faith in the notion of free will, as my own cynical perspective hasn't done me any favors in terms of my psychological well-being (positive people live longer, happier lives).Â I can see how my point of view would seem presumptuous to an idealist.

Also, a lot of the inconsistencies between this microcosm and real world biology are necessities of developing a video game.Â Game devs are artists and writers, not scientists.Â The idea that male Seekers should be larger or male Keepers more flamboyant while female Keepers more drab likely never occurred to them, and even if it did was ignored because of deadlines, budget, player protest (why are these female Keepers so drab, that's not fair!) and other real world factors.Â Â But since I can't be playing the game at the moment, I spend my time thinking and writing about it.

(07-20-2013, 04:23 PM)DimmerMeerkat Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 05:10 AM)Callipygian Wrote: Recent (Sub)Speciation of the Miqoâ€™te Clans

*snip**snip**snip*
This section, I'd like to discuss! You have sound reasoning, but I think that you left out one big detail about the difference between Keepers and Seekers that could have completely altered your conclusion.

I actually wasn't aware of these differences, so you raise a good point.Â As far as differences in coloration, pattern, or the length of the tail go, these sorts of adaptations don't take long to develop, as you're altering an existent trait rather than gaining a new one.Â Still, it's probably on the order of tens to hundreds of generations.Â As I mentioned in a post above this one, the traits I'm ascribing to a short time-frame are likely things the devs didn't even consider, so you're probably right.

Faiz · **07-20-2013, 05:28 PM**

I feel as though I learned a fair bit having read this thread and most of its posts. My character however wouldn't be abiding by any of this due to how and who he was raised by. I'm that small percentage that maaay be looked down upon for having a male Miqo'te who knows nothing about the clans, his culture, etc. ^^;

Nox · **07-20-2013, 05:34 PM**

(07-20-2013, 04:04 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 03:18 PM)allgivenover Wrote: So far it's been my experience in RP that Miqo'te characters are either totally tribal or have no attachment or conflict with their heritage whatsoever (aside from Ryanti - one of the largest aspects of his character is his conflict with his heritage). I think there's a lot of interesting inner and outer RP conflict between the two lifestyles that is being largely ignored by the greater part of the RP community, in some part due to the OOC rejection and/or dislike for what little tribal lore SE has given us.

I similarly bemoan this. IMO, miqo'te should have strong opinions regarding their tribal culture, and that should generate some conflict RP. I don't really see how a miqo'te who's aware of the culture couldn't have a strong opinion about it -- and those who came from tribal culture probably have some conflicted feelings about the city-state/adventurer cultures, and probably miss some of the elements of their home culture (such as, y'know, not seeing all of their fellow Seeker women being exotic sex workers). I know that I've, at least, tried to integrate these into my character's personality and backstory, though she generally doesn't make a big deal about it openly unless prompted.

I generally agree, but would appear a hypocrite if you were to read about my character right now. X'sato was born so far removed from his cultural heritage, that he only knows about it through stories that are 3 generations old. I'm saving the culture clash for IC and in game, when he meets his tribal brethren for, pretty much, the first time ever. That being said, he doesn't have strong feelings about it, per se. He's not uncaring about it, in fact he doesn't much care for the culture of his tribal relatives. However, he acknowledges that he knows so little, that he has to actually discover more before he can really say, basically, "yeah, forget that."

FreelanceWizard · **07-20-2013, 05:43 PM**

(07-20-2013, 04:11 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
Quote:(such as, y'know, not seeing all of their fellow Seeker women being exotic sex workers)

This could actually be a consequence of how insignificant sex is too them culturally, we just don't know.

That's a fair point, but I think it may apply better to Keepers than Seekers. My logic is that tribal Seeker culture does have a lot of stated strictures regarding sexuality, so it probably isn't viewed as insignificant. If it were, you wouldn't have such restricted access to it. So, someone coming from that culture would probably be displeased to see their women violating those rules.

For instance, regularly hooking up with a single "sugar daddy," so to speak, would probably be close enough to their native culture that it'd get a pass, but fornicating with anyone who tosses you some coin or a wink, as opposed to the strongest or richest (the "nunhs," so to speak)? That'd probably rub a once tribal Seeker the wrong way unless they've completely turned their back on their previous culture. Even then, inculturated norms can be hard to break.

But, of course, every character is different, and not everyone is going to run into these sort of "stranger in a strange land" issues, depending on how comfortable they were with their culture before, how much they like their new culture (and their position in it), etc. Of course, maybe miqo'te just readily adapt to other cultures, which explains why the NPCs in the city-states are so different from the lore... or maybe the miqo'te in the city-states are really a segregated population that's been there for a while and assimilated already, and the tribals are the especially rare ones at this point.

(07-20-2013, 05:34 PM)Nox Wrote: I'm saving the culture clash for IC and in game, when he meets his tribal brethren for, pretty much, the first time ever. That being said, he doesn't have strong feelings about it, per se. He's not uncaring about it, in fact he doesn't much care for the culture of his tribal relatives. However, he acknowledges that he knows so little, that he has to actually discover more before he can really say, basically, "yeah, forget that."

There's nothing wrong with that at all. Smile

Your character falls into the category of "doesn't really know about the culture," which is itself something of a strong stance towards it.

DimmerMeerkat · **07-20-2013, 05:50 PM**

(07-20-2013, 05:28 PM)Faiz Wrote: I feel as though I learned a fair bit having read this thread and most of its posts. Â My character however wouldn't be abiding by any of this due to how and who he was raised by. Â I'm that small percentage that maaay be looked down upon for having a male Miqo'te who knows nothing about the clans, his culture, etc. Â ^^;

I think that actually puts you in the majority. I've seen way more city-dwelling Miqo'te males than traditional tribal males, both among Seekers and Keepers.

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Miqoâ€™te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologistâ€™s point of view

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