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***Maril*** · **07-15-2014, 02:01 PM**

I agree with Freelance on this one. I've always personally had the standpoint that, if you make a plot you have to try to make it pan out in a way that wouldn't overly impact the setting, but just the people involved in the plot - this doesn't compromise the fun for me, and it encourages me to try and be more creative.Â
By affecting the setting, I mean something that would pretty much be talked about in the next patch in some random quest somewhere, because it had that kind of magnitude that there -would- be npc's talking about it - and we don't really impact the people who write the quests or the lore or anything. I mean, just look at what happened in the Lightning event, there were paparazzi from every city state. In the event of Ul'dah experiencing a severe attack, I'd imagine the other city states would react somehow, maybe by sending over some representatives and such, or even from the people's point of view with help organizations. It just wouldn't go un-noticed.

What happens when you do try and pull these kind of magnitude of plots off is that you impact literally anyone who has their characters based in and around Ul'dah, regardless of if they read stuff on the RPC or not (I personally haven't kept an eye on that thread at all because my interest was never caught) and so when you meet someone who brings this up in IC conversation, you force them to take a stance on where they were when the attack happened, how they dealt with their own water sources, etc etc - all stuff that they never RP'ed on before because they were not a part of that plot, and they didn't know it existed. Heck, to a character deeply rooted in Ul'dah, poisoning of the water supplies could have devastating consequences, such as their family and friends dying. Â When it's something that is actually placed in the game like a bomb crater of something, by the developers, it's something that everyone can see and react to - with player plots, they don't stand a chance. And I honestly don't think it's fair to impose that on other players, I doubt anyone would react kindly to a random player just saying they saw your house blow up because they wanted a plot out of it.Â

The only way you can truly pull off these plots is either by embracing that it'll become sort of a bubble-rp, where you only mention it to those inside the bubble and leave everyone else alone, or to get creative and make up your own little town somewhere in an unmapped part of Thanalan, drawing on people's abilities to imagine that there are things there which don't show on screen.Â

*puts her two gil in a box and rolls onwards*

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-15-2014, 02:05 PM**

(07-15-2014, 01:58 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I dislike any RP that forces a continuity that players may not actually want or forces people to either side with playing it or forces them to ignore it and therefore leave themselves out of RP.

No one, NO ONE, in this community has the right to force canon on a City -- whether you believe your doing it to players or not -- that the Developers do not have a hand in and forces a change on your server. There is no need for these kind of plots either, you can do smaller plots with the same impact but don't mess with the status quo.

We do not get to change the status quo, only the devs can do that.

I was all for the PC Sultana making a CAMEO at the ball, but I heard later she was being used in other plots and that was completely inappropriate. We do not get to change the status quo. Ever.

If a few members of the RP community attempt, up to and including poisoning an entire city that never gave consent - and people defend this action those members of the RP community have too much power. Period.

And say "But they can ignore it" all you want, the truth is - no you can't ignore. Those big names in Ul'dah will talk about it - because they are apart of it - and you will be forced to shun yourself because you refuse to acknowledge the RP. You'll have nothing to discuss if you pretend you have no idea whats going on. You end up being shunned, I'm not sure why people don't see this.

once again; we don't have the right the change the status quo. We are GMs of our stories, but we are NOT the GMs of the world.

So you're just saying large scale plots shouldn't exist? Despite there are dozens (perhaps hundreds) of players involved who enjoy them, that we're being selfish for doing these things?

Zhavi · **07-15-2014, 02:13 PM**

(07-15-2014, 01:58 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I dislike any RP that forces a continuity that players may not actually want or forces people to either side with playing it or forces them to ignore it and therefore leave themselves out of RP.

I think it's the same sort of split of opinion as sorta happened in the discussion about trolls -- at the end of the day, you're not going to force me to do anything I don't want to do.

Way back when I first started rping, the group I was with wound up getting a reputation for being elitist bastards. Why? We had standards, we wanted to do things a certain way, and we weren't going to compromise who we were and our fun time to match someone else's expectations.

To me, this is the same sort of thing. Whether or not you want to be involved -- work around it. To me, it's never a question of whether or not someone should do something -- it's about what I am willing to do. I honestly don't care if anyone wants to rp as a neko-demon-dragon-succubi girl. You know what, if that's how you have fun then you go for it -- but that particular thing is not fun for me, so I'm not going to do it.

Pretty much, I think you have a point, but I also think that people should be free to rp what's fun for them. If you don't want to be involved with it or think it's too game-breaking to be a thing, then that's one of those times when you have to figure out your solutions. I mean, it sucks for both sides when that sort of thing happens, but I also don't think it's worth putting too much time or energy into, you know?

Quote:No one, NO ONE, in this community has the right to force canon on a City -- whether you believe your doing it to players or not -- that the Developers do not have a hand in and forces a change on your server. There is no need for these kind of plots either, you can do smaller plots with the same impact but don't mess with the status quo.

We do not get to change the status quo, only the devs can do that.

FWIW, I think what Kahn'a was trying to say was that they never intended to force canon on the city, and were trying to rp it in a way that it wasn't doing that. . .but they're eloquent speakers so I'll let them address that themselves.

Quote:And say "But they can ignore it" all you want, the truth is - no you can't ignore. Those big names in Ul'dah will talk about it - because they are apart of it - and you will be forced to shun yourself because you refuse to acknowledge the RP. You'll have nothing to discuss if you pretend you have no idea whats going on. You end up being shunned, I'm not sure why people don't see this.

once again; we don't have the right the change the status quo. We are GMs of our stories, but we are NOT the GMs of the overarching world.

If it is that irreconcilable to you, that's the point when I'd start sending pms to the organizers to try to work out a tenable solution. As is, in the plot thread itself, Askier posted a nice little four-point solution that would dampen down the overall effects. If that's still not reconcilable to you, then yeah -- you do have to make a decision about how much you're willing to skim over.

Truth is, rp is not eternal. Today's big deal will be forgotten tomorrow. References will fade, and new events will crop up. I predict that in a month's time after the event has ended it will likely become a moot point; new problems will be gripping the characters' attention. In the meantime, I'm sure people are taking in all the opinions about what happened and will take it into consideration for future events.

ArmachiA · **07-15-2014, 02:13 PM**

There are not hundreds, there are a few dozen or so who have decided they get to plan all the stories and decide what goes on in that city, despite the fact the Devs of the actual game saying no that didn't happen and a bunch of people who's characters live in Ul'dah having no say because they aren't part of that in crowd.

Yes, it's selfish.

There is a difference between large scale plots between your friends (You cAN have large scale plots without changing the status quo of a server and forcing consent!) and changing an entire cities landscape that you shouldn't have control over and not caring about the rest of the server.

ArmachiA · **07-15-2014, 02:18 PM**

(07-15-2014, 02:13 PM)Zhavi Wrote: Long post is long but I'm addressing the entire thing

It would be like a bunch of us Garleans (My FC's alts and the Garlean FC in Ul'dah, deciding to storm the castle with all their weaponry and technology and say "We've taken over the city now." Do you think everyone would appreciate it? No. Some would go along with it because it would be fun for them, but many many RPers would feel put out that it happened at all. Forcing something they wanted nothing to do with and US saying "Whelp, the Garleans took Ul'dah, if you don't like it, ignore it."

I think we can all agree that would be a problem.

Hell, with Ul'dah so weak to the poisoning, there isnt a reason not to do it.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-15-2014, 02:21 PM**

(07-15-2014, 02:13 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: There are not hundreds, there are a few dozen or so who have decided they get to plan all the stories and decide what goes on in that city, despite the fact the Devs of the actual game saying no that didn't happen and a bunch of people who's characters live in Ul'dah having no say because they aren't part of that in crowd.

Yes, it's selfish.

There is a difference between large scale plots between your friends (You cAN have large scale plots without changing the status quo of a server and forcing consent!) and changing an entire cities landscape that you shouldn't have control over and not caring about the rest of the server.

Eh.

I don't think anything can be said to convince you. What I will say is that your concerns are noted, but I don't have any plans on stopping. I am not really sure what this thread will achieve, yes as we already knew some people on the sidelines don't like city RP. Well... good for you, chase after whatever RP you enjoy. But we are gonna keep doing what we love.

Because it's too fun to stop :3 even when it gets messy. Even though we argue sometimes (the blood on the sands thread is a good example) we always eventually hash something out and grow closer as a community.

Zhavi · **07-15-2014, 02:23 PM**

(07-15-2014, 02:18 PM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(07-15-2014, 02:13 PM)Zhavi Wrote: Long post is long but I'm addressing the entire thing

It would be like a bunch of us Garleans (My FC's alts and the Garlean FC in Ul'dah, deciding to storm the castle with all their weaponry and technology and say "We've taken over the city now." Do you think everyone would appreciate it? No. Some would go along with it because it would be fun for them, but many many RPers would feel put out that it happened at all. Forcing something they wanted nothing to do with and US saying "Whelp, the Garleans took Ul'dah, if you don't like it, ignore it."

I think we can all agree that would be a problem.

I have nothing at stake with anything going on in Ul'dah, so I'm gonna give you a theoretical.

If someone did something in Limsa that was at total odds with my rp, to the point that it somehow broke my rp, I would first try to talk to whomever was organizing it to see if we couldn't make the two fit together.

If that, despite all best intentions and efforts, became impossible, then I would continue to rp alongside them while totally ignoring anything having to do with stuff that broke my rp. Why? Because I'm stubborn. I have chosen this as a hobby, I will make it work. As long as even one person is interested in rping with me, I will continue doing what I'm doing. I've been called nasty names for having that sort of attitude (not here, different site), but to me it's just sorta. . .live and let live. I will do my best to compromise, but at the end of the day I need to have fun.

That goes for every rper, I think.

And I am really sorry you feel like stuff has broken your rp. That's never a good feeling to have.

Melkire · **07-15-2014, 02:27 PM**

This whole water poisoning thing has been blown way out of proportion as a result of seven pages worth of discussion that occurred while the main organizer was away and unable to set the facts straight.

What resulted is essentially "Whisper", in which the details got more and more distorted as they were passed from person to person until you had an "atrocity" in which there's no drinkable water (not true) because "every water source" was poisoned (uh,Â maybeÂ wait for clarification?)Â leading to the deaths of "hundreds of thousands of people" (I don't even think there are hundreds of thousands of people in Eorzea, let alone Ul'dah!)

So here are the facts:

Standing water sources - fountains mainly, not waterfalls or rivers or other freeflowing bodies in which a toxin would be naturally washed out over time anyway - were poisoned for all of an hour before an IC alert went out and the problem was dealt with.

An hour.

The intent was to give an event some weight via tangible consequences, and in order to avoid impacting players, the organizers deliberately targeted an NPC population which does not even existÂ nor is represented in-game by actual characters/models.

The intent was also to create JUST this type of environment:

Quote:...sort of a bubble-rp, where you only mention it to those inside the bubble and leave everyone else alone...

...and the above measures were taken to result in and create said bubble. A one-hour type span in which NPCs drank some water? Fountains which could then be drained and refilled from uncontaminated sources? (there's a river right outside of Ul'dah, people, and a waterfall in the Goblet). I don't see how it's difficult at all to employ the sort of creative solutions Zhavi talked about to go, "oh, I didn't drink anything in this one hour that Ul'dah was in danger". This would also be one of the few times I can see OoC knowledge crossing over into IC knowledge as a feasible thing - oh, you learned that there was a poisoning via forums/tells? Cool, now your character can know as well! You can just say they picked up the news from an NPC or something.

What I'm getting to is this: it's been extremely disheartening for a number of participants and organizers to see/hear this sort of negative feedback/backlash from the community at large when the goal was to have a fun, immersive event that anyone who wished to join could do so, while ALSO allowing others to stay out of it. The levels of passive-aggressive B.S. that has been going around (I myself am guilty of this) is also, likewise, disheartening. Shouldn't have to go into a thread about another city-state to wish them luck and give encouragement only to find mentions that such-and-such area has been ruined, or that we've somehow "violated" people who didn't give "consent"...

I can't speak for others but, honestly? This is how frustrated I am:

Show us on the doll where we touched you.

Gaspard · **07-15-2014, 02:32 PM**

Their points are valid nonethenless. It's not as simple as calling it 'city-rp'.

The moment you take charge over the 'Main-Story', or overarching continuity, You force everyone else to adhere to it. Who's to say who should have that control?Â

Moreso, I want to point out that the argument, or point of 'there are GM's that do it so others can enjoy great RP!" is bogus. Most of the time, those GM's carry away alot of Quality RP from it, moreso being at the spotlight of each plot and an integral part of it. So even if it's being sold as 'great contribution to the people', it really isn't more then one or two person being vested with the right to play front row. That is ofcourse not the case should said GM choose not to involve himself Roleplay wise.Â

(That being noted, I am not reffering to Askier, he seems to have a rather honest grasp about the situation.)

Also, there's a simple, other issue. since FFXIV will receive constant updates, with more and more Lore being released through it, any plots like these stand the chance of being at serious odds with future updates. If that happens, the RP scene 'has' to retcon all roleplays leading back to the initial, overarching RP that involved Canon material. Which is like a hard-delete of all the progress everyone has made. If not, you're creating a large set of time-paradoxes and lore-breaking material, and that leads to, what I think we can all agree on, bad roleplay.

Now, before anyone goes to say 'this is getting all too technical'

Roleplay is meant to be very technical, atleast when it comes to the way you shape plots and the way you adhere to Canon Lore. The moment you not only deviate, but alter canon, you try to alter the reality for all characters on the Balmung RP server, and it's only logical that those that will have none of it will ignore said input.

To just go 'well we'll keep doing it cause we enjoy it!' is essentially giving the finger to those that like to keep rp clean and proper, and more importantly, fair and balanced. Not to mention that you're then willfully creating seperation between Roleplayers, something that is contraproductive to roleplay in general.

That being said, this was more a post to address the responses here and general opinions, not a direct reply to that Event currently going on in Ul'dah. My opinion on that one is different, simply because, as Melkire said, it's been blown out of proportions in regards to it's actual influence on the public.

***Maril*** · **07-15-2014, 02:40 PM**

I feel the urge to re-point out that I didn't follow nor read more than the OP of the other thread, I've just read the stuff in this thread. My response is related to a scenario that is big, ie where all of the everything got poisoned, or all of the everything caught fire, or maybe a second calamity hit an area the size of ul'dah - I used that as an example since from what I can tell this happened in the event that this thread stems from. It might not be true for THAT event, I don't know (as I also pointed out in my reply).Â
So please don't get all sorts of offended, if your plot didn't do that then that's all good and happy, but I felt this topic would be suited to air the notion that I tend to follow which is don't do something that'd be forced down on everyone's heads.Â
Regardless if it's been blown out of proportions you can't blame people for expressing their opinion to what they think went on, all you can do is just tell them in a respectful matter what actually happened.

ArmachiA · **07-15-2014, 02:43 PM**

(07-15-2014, 02:23 PM)Zhavi Wrote: And I am really sorry you feel like stuff has broken your rp. That's never a good feeling to have.

The point is people shouldn't have to work around such power plays.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-15-2014, 02:43 PM**

As I said before we're aware of the issues, we've taken countermeasures, and we're not going to stop.

So feel free to keep talking about how you don't like it I guess? I would rather everyone on the server thought it was great, but we're not going to stop having fun with our plots because of it.

I don't see anything constructive coming from this thread. If people have suggestions about the way things can be done differently, that's fine, but these large scale plots aren't going anywhere. If history is any judge they're just going to get bigger.

Melodia · **07-15-2014, 02:48 PM**

Before this gets into personal territory I hope everyone can relax a bit. No one should be bashing anyone for their rp. And I don't think anyone has per se. I think the issue at discussion is the viability and potential issues with grand scale city rp and it's effects or not on the city itself post-rp. I mean, come on...we are all friends here so we should be able to debate this without getting angry or pitting one city's rp group versus another.

It's supposed to be for fun. And even if one disagrees with the city rp doesnt mean they hate the rp people or the story. Just means they disagree with elements of it. And that's okay. Smile

as a community we should be able to disagree politely and discuss the issue fully. I would hope we can continue this interesting topic withoutit getting ugly. Sad

Â

*sits back down*

Aerghwab · **07-15-2014, 02:49 PM**

(07-15-2014, 02:43 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: As I said before we're aware of the issues, we've taken countermeasures, and we're not going to stop.

So feel free to keep talking about how you don't like it I guess? I would rather everyone on the server thought it was great, but we're not going to stop having fun with our plots because of it.

I don't see anything constructive coming from this thread. If people have suggestions about the way things can be done differently, that's fine, but these large scale plots aren't going anywhere. If history is any judge they're just going to get bigger.

From what I've seen, people were being constructive, and then you perceived their perfectly valid concerns as a personal attack for whatever reason. Simply coming into the thread and saying, "We're not gonna stop, so there" isn't particularly constructive either. Not in any definition of the word that I'm aware of.

Zhavi · **07-15-2014, 02:49 PM**

(07-15-2014, 02:32 PM)Gaspard Wrote: Also, there's a simple, other issue. since FFXIV will receive constant updates, with more and more Lore being released through it, any plots like these stand the chance of being at serious odds with future updates. If that happens, the RP scene 'has' to retcon all roleplays leading back to the initial, overarching RP that involved Canon material. Which is like a hard-delete of all the progress everyone has made. If not, you're creating a large set of time-paradoxes and lore-breaking material, and that leads to, what I think we can all agree on, bad roleplay.

Now, before anyone goes to say 'this is getting all too technical'

Roleplay is meant to be very technical, atleast when it comes to the way you shape plots and the way you adhere to Canon Lore. The moment you not only deviate, but alter canon, you try to alter the reality for all characters on the Balmung RP server, and it's only logical that those that will have none of it will ignore said input.

To just go 'well we'll keep doing it cause we enjoy it!' is essentially giving the finger to those that like to keep rp clean and proper, and more importantly, fair and balanced. Not to mention that you're then willfully creating seperation between Roleplayers, something that is contraproductive to roleplay in general.

That being said, this was more a post to address the responses here and general opinions, not a direct reply to that Event currently going on in Ul'dah. My opinion on that one is different, simply because, as Melkire said, it's been blown out of proportions in regards to it's actual influence on the public.

Yeah, honestly, that's one of the problems we face in the prostitution ring rp with me and the rest of the gang from Heaven's Gate and everyone else. I heavily had to invent stuff in order to rp as a character who grew up on the streets of Limsa-the-city-that-is-not-represented-in-game-why-do-you-hate-Limsa-Square-Enix and who would be involved with a plethora of shady characters. There are a few npc groups in game, but I didn't want to touch those because rp means change. Change means . . . I just didn't want to mess with them. So I made some up. A lot.

The rogue's guild is incoming. I expect there to be new lore that touches on more of Limsa's pirates and smuggling. It will probably negate some of the setup I've done with HG/Path and some of the stuff I've rped with other characters.

But honestly, I'd rather have to go back and fix things then not do it at all, you know?

I do like technical. I know I said in the other thread that sometimes simplifying is for the best, but honestly, yeah -- where it's possible to nail things down to the nitty gritty, that's what I prefer. But sometimes, when you have a whole platoon of differing opinions. . .it's just not possible.

City-wide RP plots (split from Limsa Lominsa RP Connections)

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes