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Celsius · **01-16-2015, 06:57 PM**

Honestly, my biggest issue is what I've seen on my younger brother's homeworks and tests. What they're being taught is one thing. But when a kid solves the problem on a test using older methods, but arrives at the correct answer, the question should be correct, right?

My calling of BS is when they mark a correct answer wrong because they didn't use the core method of arriving at the answer.

Zyrusticae · **01-16-2015, 07:27 PM**

Interesting post I saw on common core math (btw, this thread is the very first I've heard of it so I have zero understanding of what it actually is):

Quote:The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) not only rated countries by mathematics achievement, but also examined math instruction in the top-performing countries. My understanding is that the NCTM has been guided by these findings. One thing the TIMSS found is that effective teaching doesn't always look the same. Some countries used calculators and real-world problems effectively. Others, like Japan, did not. But what all the high achieving countries had in common is that solving math problems was about focusing on understanding connections and concepts over procedure. In the classrooms studied in the United States, however, problems were always implemented as procedural exercises.

What the seemingly convoluted methods of the CC do is allow students to build connections and construct solutions based on their understanding of how numbers work. The procedures and algorithms of the past gave us efficient plug in formulas for solving problems but left us without any understanding of why our solutions were correct, or incorrect. And if we forgot a procedure, we had nothing to fall back on.

As a former secondary math teacher I saw this frequently when students tried to find sums, products of fractions. They remembered being taught a procedure called cross-multiplication, or cross-products, but they never understood the algebra on which it is based. So they would misapply it to products of fractions rather than using to solve proportions. The same proportion that can be solved using the cross product gimmick can be solved more efficiently by simply understanding that multiplying equivalent fractions by the same number results in another pair of equivalent fractions. Think of geometric formulas. If you know what perimeter is, or area, you don't need to memorize a formula. On the Va. Grade 6 SOL students are given a formula sheet. The formula for finding perimeter of a rectangle is p = 2L + 2W. What? Just add together all the sides.

I can actually see the logic in this, since I personally had a difficult time with math simply because so much of the curriculum consisted of rote memorization of formulas and patterns instead of giving me an understanding of the underlying math.

It's also worth noting that arithmetic itself is a really basic skill that's not really very important in the grand scheme of things (you can just use a calculator for it, after all), and as such using it for helping people understand number concepts as opposed to focusing on speed (which is obviously pointless when calculators are instantaneous) makes a lot of sense. Whether or not their teaching methods actually help students arrive at said understanding is obviously beyond me, but, again, I can see the method behind the madness.

Naunet · **01-16-2015, 07:34 PM**

Math problems/tests have neverÂ just graded on the correct answer in all of my years of schooling. Showing your work and doing that work properly was half if not more of the points given to the question.

@Kage: Your math equations are incorrect. (5-3) + 8 = 10, not 13. The process involved would be adding whatever number you need from 8 to get to 10 (2), and then subtracting that from 5 (gets you 3), which you would then add to 10. Looks more like 8 + (10-8) + (5-(10-8)) = 13. Your example with what cashiers do with counting change is rather a good one. But honestly, there is nothing "bad" about the problem in your linked image. Students are having trouble transitioning from raw memorization (a rather depthless "understanding") to the new method, which is both understandable and expected. The backlash has been unnecessarily exacerbated by adultsÂ who refuse to accept that maybe the way they learned things was not the best and are determined to keep their kids in the dark. It's honestly rather disturbing to me that a lot of the argument against Common Core standards boils down to, "I didn't need to know this, so neither does my kid." What a stagnant view of education! Education is a science, and as such the techniques used to deliver it will change over time - just as our understanding of the world changes over time. Everyone would be much better off if they accepted that fact.

Honestly, the guy with a BS in Electronics Engineering who couldn't understand that rather simple homework problem was likely suffering from his own stubbornness and preconceived notions of how things should work. I'm a teacher, so I don't really like calling people "stupid" (at least when it comes to how they understand things), but he was rather blind.

Might there be places to fine-tune the standards? Are there areas that need improvement? Certainly. Many schools are not providing teachers with adequate training to deliver instruction up to the new standards, which is a hugeÂ problem. If the teacher (who likely was not themselves instructed in this manner) can't deliver the content properly, then it's folly to think a student will be able to take it in. In order to ensure a successful transition, we must equip teachers with the proper tools - the lesson plans, specific methods, and alternative strategies (this is a BIG one). Schools where effort has gone to doing this have seen great success in elevating students' understanding and ability in the updated subjects.

I encourage you to read this article about how the math standards in the Common Core came to be; hopefully you find it enlightening.

C'kayah Polaali · **01-16-2015, 08:27 PM**

(01-16-2015, 07:34 PM)Naunet Wrote: Math problems/tests have neverÂ just graded on the correct answer in all of my years of schooling. Showing your work and doing that work properly was half if not more of the points given to the question.

And thank God for that! Big Grin

(01-16-2015, 07:34 PM)Naunet Wrote: Students are having trouble transitioning from raw memorization (a rather depthless "understanding") to the new method, which is both understandable and expected.

For me, the jury is still out about whether or not the Common Core produces better understanding. I will say that it would be difficult for it to encourage worse understanding than traditional procedural memorization.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the way math is taught today is how little playfulness there is around it. Math isn't stodgy. It isn't boring. Yet kids are expected to grind through a bunch of "practical" math before they even get a hint that it's fun to play with. I've known a number of mathematicians, and most of them got their initial love of math by learning it in a very playful environment. One got his start playing games with his mathematician grandmother: playing games with a compass (the point-and-pencil kind) and the like. Most of them never really understood there was anything serious about what they were doing. They were simply playing games.

The essay Lockhart's Lament was a big influence on me when I was teaching my daughters math. I wished I'd have run across it earlier, because we spent an awful lot of time working through the Singapore curriculum, and an awful lot of energy trying to make up fun things to do with what they were learning.

Parvacake · **01-16-2015, 08:30 PM**

I've gotten into this with my aunt, who teaches second grade in a small town outside of Bozeman, Montana. She thinks it's amazing, yet my cousin (a fifth grade math teacher in a town a few hours away) thinks it's insanity. Her kids are having such a hard time with it even though she's learned how to teach them.

I mean...it's great that we're learning a different approach to math.

But it's also like "Why are we taking ten extra steps to solve a problem I learned how to do in three?".

Mae · **01-16-2015, 08:31 PM**

Why does 427-316=111? Because you had a group of 427 units, then you removed 316 of them, leaving only 111 units left. That's the why. There's nothing magical about it, even with my fail-math brain I understood this logic by 3rd grade at the latest. Someone probably could've shown me this logic in kindergarten with a sack of beans and while I might have struggled to count to numbers quite that high, I would've gotten it.

I totally sympathize with "Frustrated Parent".Â

Anyways. "Professional Protesters", GTFO my planet. You don't believe in the causes you 'stand for', you just want to stand somewhere and make trouble because you'll get in the news. Or your protests turn into exercises in hypocrisy.

C'kayah Polaali · **01-16-2015, 08:36 PM**

(01-16-2015, 08:30 PM)Lilithium Wrote: I've gotten into this with my aunt, who teaches second grade in a small town outside of Bozeman, Montana. She thinks it's amazing, yet my cousin (a fifth grade math teacher in a town a few hours away) thinks it's insanity. Her kids are having such a hard time with it even though she's learned how to teach them.

Which is where Naunet's comment about having alternate strategies comes in. We both know that different people can have wildly different ways of learning. What works great for some people is awful for others.

Melkire · **01-16-2015, 08:38 PM**

I'm... not seeing the issue. Never heard of Common Core (at least, not by that name), but from what I'm reading here it's basically mental approaches to math recorded as formulaic strategies.

If I see a problem that goes, "1000 - 865 = ?", my brain doesn't sit there and do

1000
- 865
135

No, my brain goes "well it's 200 to get from 800 to 1000, but adding 200 to 865 gets me 1065 so really I need to subtract 65 from 200. 60 from 200 is 140 and I still have another 5 to take away so that's 135". And my brain does that really, really fast, without even really thinking about it.

...if that's really all that Common Core is, then I don't see the problem with it, save that it looks really convoluted when written down.

Parvacake · **01-16-2015, 08:47 PM**

(01-16-2015, 08:36 PM)C Wrote:
(01-16-2015, 08:30 PM)Lilithium Wrote: I've gotten into this with my aunt, who teaches second grade in a small town outside of Bozeman, Montana. She thinks it's amazing, yet my cousin (a fifth grade math teacher in a town a few hours away) thinks it's insanity. Her kids are having such a hard time with it even though she's learned how to teach them.

Which is where Naunet's comment about having alternate strategies comes in. We both know that different people can have wildly different ways of learning. What works great for some people is awful for others.

Indeed, which is where my next thought is "Why force it on the kids who can't grasp it? As long as they're learning how why not just let the kids who get Common Core use that and the ones who can't use a different method or the old one?"

But one of the problems is it's been Common Core or gtfo for some of these schools. Which I cringe at so hard I want to turtle inside my hoodie that they're laying down the law for how a child should learn something and restricting their use of creativity and growth because 'our way is best way'.

Quote:If I see a problem that goes, "1000 - 865 = ?", my brain doesn't sit there and do

1000
- 865

135

No, my brain goes "well it's 200 to get from 800 to 1000, but adding 200 to 865 gets me 1065 so really I need to subtract 65 from 200. 60 from 200 is 140 and I still have another 5 to take away so that's 135". And my brain does that really, really fast, without even really thinking about it.

...if that's really all that Common Core is, then I don't see the problem with it, save that it looks really convoluted when written down.

I do the same thing. The written down part is what confuses some people because it's taking something that normally calculates itself in your head almost automatically and trying to map it out step by step. When I helped my fifteen year old sister with her schooling? It was a nightmare.

Naunet · **01-16-2015, 09:07 PM**

(01-16-2015, 08:47 PM)Lilithium Wrote: I do the same thing. The written down part is what confuses some people because it's taking something that normally calculates itself in your head almost automatically and trying to map it out step by step. When I helped my fifteen year old sister with her schooling? It was a nightmare.

It's self-awareness. The idea is that once kids make the connection (and the writing down part may be necessary for a lot of kids to get it - just not all, which is where the alternative teaching strategies and having a diversified approach comes in), they will be better equipped to confidently apply the theory to much more complex problems. If they don't understand the methods thoroughly, there's a high likelihood that they will misapply methods to problems where it isn't appropriate (this is something that actually happens). It's absolutely sound.

It's also entirely possible to teach to the Common Core math standard in ways other than physically writing out a diagram, and I can guarantee you that teachers who know their stuff will do exactly that. The idea that kids learn differently is not something that teachers are ignorant of, and the Common Core standards do not dictate a single way of teaching. They simply lay out the systems needed to uplift student understanding to a level higher than what they were at previously.

Parvacake · **01-16-2015, 09:33 PM**

(01-16-2015, 09:07 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(01-16-2015, 08:47 PM)Lilithium Wrote: I do the same thing. The written down part is what confuses some people because it's taking something that normally calculates itself in your head almost automatically and trying to map it out step by step. When I helped my fifteen year old sister with her schooling? It was a nightmare.

It's self-awareness. The idea is that once kids make the connection (and the writing down part may be necessary for a lot of kids to get it - just not all, which is where the alternative teaching strategies and having a diversified approach comes in), they will be better equipped to confidently apply the theory to much more complex problems. If they don't understand the methods thoroughly, there's a high likelihood that they will misapply methods to problems where it isn't appropriate (this is something that actually happens). It's absolutely sound.

Right, but what I'm mostly focusing on is those who have struggled this whole time even with good teachers and guides and who still don't get it. Yet that's what the school dictates they be taught, so it's what they're taught. It's now the implemented norm and is imposed upon everyone.

I'm not arguing it's not beneficial. I'm arguing that it's pretty shitty to force teachers to teach a certain way when as long as students find the best ways to come to the right answers at the end, should it even matter the method? You're there to learn how to solve problems, so why restrict their abilities to thrive by strong arming them into a single method that many still don't get?

I get the basic reasoning behind it. But after helping kids do some of these problems, I can see why so many are frustrated and talking with people who teach it hasn't helped my feelings on it.

Naunet · **01-16-2015, 11:49 PM**

The method itself is not the problem. Diverse teaching strategies doesn't mean teach to a different curriculum, just to approach the method in a different way. Perhaps writing out the steps does nothing for one student (there are many kids who have varying levels of dysgraphia that often, sadly, goes undiagnosed though it can be countered given time), but perhaps manipulating tiles to illustrate the method makes things suddenly clear.

You're taking issue with the wrong part of the equation, so to speak.

Enteris · **01-17-2015, 12:30 AM**

(01-16-2015, 08:47 PM)Lilithium Wrote: Indeed, which is where my next thought is "Why force it on the kids who can't grasp it? As long as they're learning how why not just let the kids who get Common Core use that and the ones who can't use a different method or the old one?"

But one of the problems is it's been Common Core or gtfo for some of these schools. Which I cringe at so hard I want to turtle inside my hoodie that they're laying down the law for how a child should learn something and restricting their use of creativity and growth because 'our way is best way'.

This pretty handily sums up my opinion on the matter.

Taking my personal experience of learning multiplication (many many years ago).. as I recall, I learned to multiply by taking my knowledge of addition, and counting by the number. So...

6x4... I'd either count by 6's or 4's until I got my answer.
4 8 12 16 20 24
orÂ
6 12 18 24

Granted, over time, I'd memorized everything up to 12x12, but not by looking at a chart. I did it by doing the problems.

Except for 9s. 9s, I taught myself a trick that, at that time, made it faster and easier for me. The trick was to take whatever other number 9 was being multiplied with, take 1 away from it, then add it up to 9 again. So..

9 x 7
Take 1 from 7 = 6
6 + ? = 9 Â 3
My answer is 63.

Was that 9 trick taught in my classes? No. Is it the correct answer? Yes.

The biggest issue to me is forcing students (and teachers) to look at problems this way as the only way. As long as the student is capable of getting the correct answer and, if necessary, show their work and that works makes sense... then back off and let the student do their thing.

----------------

As to the actual name of the thread... parents that do not discipline their children... at all....

*adds wood to the fire*

Kage · **01-17-2015, 12:35 AM**

(01-17-2015, 12:30 AM)Enteris Wrote: As to the actual name of the thread... parents that do not discipline their children... at all....

*adds wood to the fire*

And then get mad at schools for doing a good job of it (or not) NO ONE EVER WINS

TheBlob · **01-17-2015, 12:49 AM**

(01-17-2015, 12:35 AM)Kage Wrote:
(01-17-2015, 12:30 AM)Enteris Wrote: As to the actual name of the thread... parents that do not discipline their children... at all....

*adds wood to the fire*
And then get mad at schools for doing a good job of it (or not) NO ONE EVER WINS

And thus the circle is complete.

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