RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Dogberry · **01-28-2015, 01:32 PM**

I'm very aware. I have made armor. My friends and I have made chain mail, studded leather armor, and plate mail from scratch. I am around armor a lot. One of my long term projects is to build an authentic reenactor quality Knight Hospitaller kit.

My point is this:

We know nothing about the construction of this specific piece of armor. The weave or what it's made of. Is it aluminum, steel, or titanium, which are three very common materials for modern chain mail that one can easily buy from budk? Is he using a cheap piece of aluminum chain mail and extrapolating out to make claims about history?

Then we see no more of the armor after the shot.

Is this guy asking us to be impressed that his half draw, close range shot may or may not have pierced cheaply made aluminum chain mail? Or is this a painstakingly woven, high quality mild steel chain mail hauberk and padded gambeson?

I have seen aluminum armor fall apart when hit by padded sticks.

Boo the Hamster · **01-28-2015, 01:39 PM**

(01-28-2015, 01:32 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I'm very aware. I have made armor. My friends and I have made chain mail, studded leather armor, and plate mail from scratch. I am around armor a lot. One of my long term projects is to build an authentic reenactor quality Knight Hospitaller kit.

My point is this:

We know nothing about the construction of this specific piece of armor. The weave or what it's made of. Is it aluminum, steel, or titanium, which are three very common materials for modern chain mail that one can easily buy from budk? Is he using a cheap piece of aluminum chain mail and extrapolating out to make claims about history?

Then we see no more of the armor after the shot.

Is this guy asking us to be impressed that his half draw, close range shot may or may not have pierced cheaply made aluminum chain mail? Or is this a painstakingly woven, high quality mild steel chain mail hauberk and padded gambeson?

I have seen aluminum armor fall apart when hit by padded sticks.

We should talk then, because I'm curious on how it works historically, and don't really understand leather and plate outside of some light reading here and there.

Wouldn't arrows pierce chain mail and leather at that short of a distance regardless if the armor was well made or not?

Dogberry · **01-28-2015, 02:09 PM**

(01-28-2015, 01:39 PM)Boo the Hamster Wrote:
(01-28-2015, 01:32 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I'm very aware. I have made armor. My friends and I have made chain mail, studded leather armor, and plate mail from scratch. I am around armor a lot. One of my long term projects is to build an authentic reenactor quality Knight Hospitaller kit.

My point is this:

We know nothing about the construction of this specific piece of armor. The weave or what it's made of. Is it aluminum, steel, or titanium, which are three very common materials for modern chain mail that one can easily buy from budk? Is he using a cheap piece of aluminum chain mail and extrapolating out to make claims about history?

Then we see no more of the armor after the shot.

Is this guy asking us to be impressed that his half draw, close range shot may or may not have pierced cheaply made aluminum chain mail? Or is this a painstakingly woven, high quality mild steel chain mail hauberk and padded gambeson?

I have seen aluminum armor fall apart when hit by padded sticks.
We should talk then, because I'm curious on how it works historically, and don't really understand leather and plate outside of some light reading here and there.

Wouldn't arrows pierce chain mail and leather at that short of a distance regardless if the armor was well made or not?

The Geekdad article claims definitely so. I know more about armor than archery, and have never fired actual arrows at any armor made at the workshop. If that's the case, I'd say it's more damning to the guy's narrative than the idea that well-made armor would make a distance.

That said, I'm really suspicious of the actual amount of force in his shots. He's shooting for speed, and no doubt has to sacrifice draw distance, and thus power. In that case, I can say the material of the armor definitely matters.

Coatleque · **01-28-2015, 02:55 PM**

(01-28-2015, 01:39 PM)Boo the Hamster Wrote: We should talk then, because I'm curious on how it works historically, and don't really understand leather and plate outside of some light reading here and there.

Budget Chainmail is made by using two pair of pliers and crimping rings together in an interlocking pattern. The rings themselves are typically 10-14 gauge wire and between 1/4 to 3/4 inches in diameter.

High quality chain is either riveted or soldered together at the ring's split. Each ring. Very time consuming.

Either way, the rings themselves each have a single point of weakness, being the joint. It does not take much pressure from a piercing object to split the ring at the seam and spread it. This is why chain is very weak to piercing attacks. That and the fact that the chain hangs loosely means that when you do apply said pressure, the rings tend to re-align themselves allowing an easier entry point.

Cutting (slashing) attacks, however, will simply slide off the rings. At that point the real damage comes from the weight of the weapon which could still break bones at the cost of dulling the edge.

Aduu Avagnar · **01-28-2015, 03:46 PM**

As Coat said, the issue with chain is that it is designed to redistribute pressure across the surface of the strike, the larger the surface, the better protection it offers, however, the blunt force trauma can still split rings, and break bones/rupture organs, which is why jacks were worn, to provide more protection against the impact.

Arrows however have a very narrow area of pressure, allowing them to potentially split a ring, and dig in past the padding.Â

However, as Dog said, the most effective use of archers is in volleys, as you are more likely to hit a vulnerable location, such as a shoulder or face. Look at the battles of Crecy and Agincourt for examples of where large numbers of Welsh Longbowmen turned the tide against French Knights.Â

Plate was a better defence against arrows than Chain, but it was for that reason that crossbows were invented.

Ligardian Dreamer · **01-28-2015, 04:02 PM**

Oooo~ Kudo video! owo

Zyrusticae · **01-28-2015, 08:25 PM**

(01-28-2015, 12:36 PM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote: I feel a little like the guy who tells kids there ain't no Santa Claus. Yeah. It's that enjoyable.

He has some good points. Unfortunately, he's also a raging dick. What a shame.

He did post this rather lovely video in the comments (which is also useless for actual archery thanks to them not actually carrying any arrows (they're edited in), but it sure looks cool):

Harmonixer · **01-28-2015, 08:56 PM**

I was watching this video the other day and thinking to myself how cool it was. I didn't really know about any of that, and after asking a few questions and reading more on the subject I have to admit for a little bit there, I wanted an archer.

Still, I think is an excellent tool for RP. Even if it's just for discussion!

C'kayah Polaali · **01-28-2015, 08:58 PM**

(01-28-2015, 08:25 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: He has some good points. Unfortunately, he's also a raging dick. What a shame.

He's certainly got a bit of a Walter thing going on...

Zelmanov · **01-29-2015, 02:08 PM**

I think what can really be brought to light from the video, however, is more that considering the type of fights most archers in FFXIV get into, the number of enemies, range, what have you. It goes to show that they aren't utterly screwed up close or on the move.Â

the Geekdad post is equal parts diatribe and enlightening, but given the fantasy world's aether manipulation and the like, may not be so pertinent when it comes to Eorzea.

Erik Mynhier · **01-29-2015, 03:10 PM**

All his study has just shown how messed up Hollywood is, and how the images generated by the movies has effected this art in a RL way. Same with sword fighting. The hilt and handle are to be used, as well as the flat of the blade. But as movies and popular art says, two idiots stand about a 3 feet apart and just beat the shit out of the edges of their blades while they do not move more then a foot in any direction. I actually collect reprints of old manuscripts, but I was unaware of the Arabic archery one. I'll have to pick up a copy.

Enteris · **02-09-2015, 09:50 AM**

Not to be "that guy," but another tidbit to consider.

http://www.skeptic.com/insight/pulling-a...ery-video/

What you subscribe to is up to you (general), I suppose.

SicketySix · **02-09-2015, 10:02 AM**

I get where he is trying to go with this, but lets face it, this is just "Hollywood" being redone to fit his taste.Â

No archer, in a combat situation is going to partially run sideways up a tree before firing.
Not to mention, that the firing of 3+ arrows at once cause it's penetrating power by atleast 35%. So unless your opponent was standing within 10 feet of you, but naked, the arrows would not pierce thru much.

If you are using these techniques forecourt roleplay or other fantasy type interaction, then this would help spice up a fairly weak melee range class. In real life however, it's just not practical.

Now, I'm not a pro archer (tho info have some experience) so this is not based on solid facts, it's just my thoughts on the matter.

Flashhelix · **02-09-2015, 10:47 AM**

He's not actually sacrifice drawing power, if you look closely. While he only pulls it back halfway, he also pushes the bow forward a fair amount, resulting in a full draw that looks like a half-draw.

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A really cool look at what can be achieved with Archery *Resource*

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

A really cool look at what can be achieved with Archery Resource