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Sounsyy · **07-07-2015, 12:58 AM**

(07-07-2015, 12:55 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 12:49 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Taking a different stance than I usually take on this sort of subject, I'll just say this:

For a magic that's been buried in a tree and forgotten for 1,600 years and the knowledge of its continued existence has only been entrusted to about six very isolated families who live their entire lifetime out in the deep Woods... a lot of people in Eorzea sure do seem to know a lot about white magic's forbidden-ness ICly. Hmm...

I thought it was common knowledge that it almost destroyed the world.

Is that not true?

Not unless you are a scholar of ancient history, no. When Raya-O first uses her magic she has to explain to the PC (a now experienced conjurer) that what she had just used was white magic and actually explain what succor is and why its no longer used. The average person doesn't know what it is. Just like the average person doesn't know that Ul'dah actually zombified Sil'dih. And that was only 400 years ago.

shotgunbadger · **07-07-2015, 01:02 AM**

From what I understand it's 'common knowledge' that the magic war or whatever it was called involved incredibly destructive and world shaping magics, and among the very magically educated they know the names of those magics. Basically it'd be like if it was common knowledge that World War 2 ended with a horrific use of a military weapon, but only people really educated in history or military stuff would know 'yea those were nukes, dawg'.

That's my understanding at least, Black Magic is more 'common' in the sense that it's fairly known there is a special kind of very destructive magics that was especially powerful, but White Magic has literally been buried in the forest for ages.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **07-07-2015, 01:06 AM**

(07-07-2015, 01:02 AM)shotgunbadger Wrote: From what I understand it's 'common knowledge' that the magic war or whatever it was called involved incredibly destructive and world shaping magics, and among the very magically educated they know the names of those magics. Basically it'd be like if it was common knowledge that World War 2 ended with a horrific use of a military weapon, but only people really educated in history or military stuff would know 'yea those were nukes, dawg'.

That's my understanding at least, Black Magic is more 'common' in the sense that it's fairly known Â there is a special kind of very destructive magics that was especially powerful, but White Magic has literally been buried in the forest for ages.

I think what Sounsyy's trying to get at is that it's common OOC knowledge, but exceedingly rare IC knowledge.

But even Black Magic is extremely rare. As the player character, we literally learn "the secrets of the Black".

Enla · **07-07-2015, 01:09 AM**

Huh, I hadn't remembered that part. If Enla ever comes across someone claiming to be a WHM now I'll have to amend her answer to being more quizzical than outright 'u wot m8'. Thanks Sounsyy for clearing that up.

Sounsyy · **07-07-2015, 01:14 AM**

(07-07-2015, 01:02 AM)shotgunbadger Wrote: From what I understand it's 'common knowledge' that the magic war or whatever it was called involved incredibly destructive and world shaping magics, and among the very magically educated they know the names of those magics. Basically it'd be like if it was common knowledge that World War 2 ended with a horrific use of a military weapon, but only people really educated in history or military stuff would know 'yea those were nukes, dawg'.

That's my understanding at least, Black Magic is more 'common' in the sense that it's fairly known there is a special kind of very destructive magics that was especially powerful, but White Magic has literally been buried in the forest for ages.

Except WW2 was only 75 years ago, versus 1,600. And without internet or access to public education, on top of the fact that this knowledge was intentionally hidden from the public, I find it hard to believe that any of this was common knowledge.

The reason Black Magic specifically is more commonly known in Ul'dah, is because the surviving Magi from the 6th Umbral Calamity came together and formed the city of Belah'dia - a city specifically for Magi because the rest of Eorzea had ostracized them and cast them out. Belah'dian Magi retrace the routes of Black Magic back into Thaumaturgy and continue on the practice for the next thousand years. Belah'dia splits into Sil'dih and Ul'dah, and Ul'dah still exists to this day. And, quite pertinent, to the original 1.0 storyline for Thaumaturge, it required them to do a lot of reading and study on their magic and its roots. However, we are told that these tomes on the "dark arts" are kept in the forbidden section of the Ossuary's library.

White magic, on the other hand, was supposedly all but wiped out. First by the Black Mages when they destroyed Amdapor shortly before the end of the war. Then by the Flood which swallowed Eorzea. The Elementals then cast out everyone from Amdapor and grew up the forest (and a giant tree) around Amdapor. Egress into the Wood was not permitted to anyone for 1000 years afterwards. Succor was then only gifted to the Padjal, a race of the Elemental's own creation, of which we only know of six families. It's expressed in the WHM storylines that this is an extremely close guarded secret of the Padjal and that likely Gridanians don't even know exactly what separates a Padjal's Succor from a very skillful Conjurer. Given that the Elemental's word is law, I find it hard to swallow that there are too many within Gridania who are keen to pry into the Elemental's power. And outsiders have only been allowed into the Black Shroud in the last 100 years since the Autumn War, so not a lot of outsider influence to be had there either.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-07-2015, 01:32 AM**

That's good to know, so for 99% of people in the world, the reaction to having someone say they're a white mage is...

"Oh... what's a white mage?"

I'm ok with this.

LiadansWhisper · **07-07-2015, 01:36 AM**

I guess that I just don't get why anyone would think they had to be a White Mage to RP an effective healer. Â I mean, the vast majority of the spells you use as a White Mage aren't even White Mage spells at all. Â They're Conjurer spells. Â So this is stuff that any experienced Conjurer could/would know.

The only spells you don't have access to if you RP a Conjurer and not a White Mage are rather niche spells. Â They're not main line, heavy-duty healing spells. Â All of those spells are from Conjurer, not White Mage.

Dis · **07-07-2015, 01:39 AM**

I deal with White Magic (specifically being a White Mage ICly) to the effect of Glioca knowing there was more beyond being a Conjurer, and researching and developing spells on her own that tie in other fields of magic to mimic what little information she could find on White Magic. Â She generally uses spells and calls them something else anyway (not the spell names seen in game), so she passes what would be White Magic off as incredibly strong healing magic that totallyÂ isn't White Magic.

I've not run up against anyone yet who has had a problem with me doing that. Â She doesn't specifically call herself a White Mage, which helps. Â I think using the spells and calling it something else tends to be the easiest pass I've seen others have no issue with. Â

"Sure, you can use similar powerful healing magic, but don't call yourself so and so class because that's technically not allowable according to the lore." Â

Which does make sense in that it would be strange for the Elementals to suddenly be cool with a ton of White Mages running around.

Gegenji · **07-07-2015, 07:58 AM**

I didn't know that the knowledge of White Magic was actually so... unknown. It makes sense given the circumstances, though. If it wasn't, I would assume folks would be seeking to try and revive it much sooner - or find the alternatives that the lore folks have been hinting at but have yet to show?

I was actually initially worried when I read through this that Gogon's knowledge and subsequent hunting for an Amdaporian Soul Crystal would suddenly be lore-breaking. However, then I realized that he's already spent plenty of time studying Nymian history and tactics and whatnot - which would include conflicts with the Mcachi and Amdapori. In fact, this better explains why he was actually able to find one in one of their ruins - people aren't actively out and looking for them.

So "finding an Amdapori Soul Crystal" is still a valid thing... it's just that most folks - unless they're well-read on the War of the Magi - will have no idea what it is and what is contained within.

Thorgar · **07-07-2015, 09:05 AM**

Thanks again for all the posts, im learning alot!Â Oh amusing side note: was Rping last night and ran across a white mage claiming to be a white mage.Â The response they got from my Roe Warrior was "but your wearing blue".Â Seeing as his level on knowledge of spell casters is how to hit them very hard, very fast till their heads smush i think this was appropriate lol.

Has anyone ever written to Square Enix with the intent of getting this clarified?

ArmachiA · **07-07-2015, 09:10 AM**

That's pretty much my biggest problem with bending lore to play a WHM, it's really really hard to do and it gets murky really easily so I tend to avoid it. There's basically a bunch of reasons why you can't, constant hurdles you have to find your way around (Oh, it's forbidden, oh only the padjal know it, oh the Elementals guard the succor and they say no, oh, only a few people even know what a white mage is, etc etc) it just doesn't seem worth trying to do the mental gymnastics it would take to A. Explain it, and B. have it explained to me plausibly. Especially when a White Mage is really someone who dedicates their life to the Shroud and the Elementals and you can easily be just as an effective healer as a very strong Conjurer and it wouldn't change your story.

I've expressed a lot of dislike about WHM ICly over the years, but I actually think most of that comes from the fact you can be the EXACT same character without needing the White Mage thing. Most people don't play servants to the Shroud, in fact a lot of people who say they are WHMs (Who I've seen) don't even hang in Gridania. There's nothing wrong with just being a Conjurer in this instance and - to a lot of new peoples credit who I have talked to - most people agree once it's explained to them in such a way. VERY few get the "I do what I want so eff you" attitude.

As someone stated above, a new player isn't going to know White Mage is gated so heavily, and may just call themselves that simply because "Well, it's Final Fantasy, that's what healers are." It's good that, to a lot of veterans credit, people don't mind explaining it over and over and over again (Just look at how any threads there are on the subject) so new players understand. Informed decisions are much better than "Well, you go do whatever you want." without any explanation.

I'm pretty stringent on this, and I'm in a guild that is also stringent. If you say your a White Mage ICly, my character won't know what that is. And if you try to explain it's what the Padjal do, my character will flat out not believe yours. I'm with everyone else, EVERYTHING can be explained well enough if you do your homework, and if your reason is plausible - if your able to clear the many hurdles it takes to be a White Mage - then I'll probably still rp with you. I'm stricter on White Mage then I am on most things in this game, but I won't refuse to rp with you unless you get all uppity about my preferences on lore.

Sounsyy · **07-07-2015, 10:37 AM**

(07-07-2015, 09:05 AM)Thorgar Wrote: Has anyone ever written to Square Enix with the intent of getting this clarified?

Not entirely sure what you mean by clarified? But the exclusivity of White Mage is working as intended.

(skip to 35:30)
Las Vegas Lore Panel

Blue · **07-07-2015, 11:18 AM**

I have been RPing a WHM for months and never had issues with anyone. The tricks in general are:

- Don't flaunt it. I have been wearing the WHM AF IC, but I don't go around saying "I am a White Mage!" unless people ICly ask me. And if they ask me, it's generally because they are OOCly okay with it.

- If people call you "conjurer", don't get irritated/correct them. White Mages are still conjurers. You are still a member of the Conjurer's guild, so if people are more comfortable with calling you that, just nod and let them.

- If they ICly/OOCly tell you you are not a White Mage/can't be a White Mage, shrug it off and walk away. Nobody can tell you what you can and can't RP.

I RP a White Mage in a group with two other IC White Mages. How did we do it? We had the Hedgetree give three soul gems and not one, and we performed the Quieting together instead of just The Chosen One + two Padjali WHMs as the quest intends.

Are we open to think there are more White Mages out there ICly? Yes. We do not ICly or OOCly think there can be just one soul stone, and Quieting rituals are necessary more than just once, so it's perfectly legit for us to walk and encounter others who did just what we did.

Minimal lore bending (three stones instead of one) and common sense (the Quieting may be needed again at any given time) were enough for us to make, to our IC/OOC perspective White Mage a class accessible to more than one person without much trouble.

So again the two rules to follow to make sure you don't offend those who don't agree with this is: don't mention being a White Mage unless people directly ask you (it's taken as flaunting, but do wear WHM AF if you want, apparently that isn't perceived as such for some reason), don't forget your Conjury roots and don't get into arguments with others ICly about it. Be confident in yourself, and if ICly accused, simply state something along the lines "I do not need you to believe me, I am at ease knowing the truth.".

But again, people will hardly ask you if you are a White Mage unless they are already okay with it, because normally people don't want to hear what they don't like.

"But what if they ask me what I do for a living?" Simply give the same answer conjurers do, because White Mages do exactly the same thing. Wander around, heeding to the Elementals' will and bestowing healing magick on those in need. Or, as Blue would put it..

"I am an adventurer. I help."
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Ignacius · **07-07-2015, 11:23 AM**

As with all issues of this nature, play what you're going to play. Â People will play with you or they won't. Â If you're fun to play with, it's their loss.

You do you.

Hyrist · **07-07-2015, 04:24 PM**

I feel as if I am doing the group a disservice not doing a write up and discussion on the topic of Layered Cannons.Â

In this particular case, the case where the larger Lore says "This thing is rare and forbidden." The wider ideals of Cannon, that of Lore and Public Cannon, would have the keep the rule and public context enforced. So, it would be frowned upon to be outward on the public level about it.

However, in deeper, smaller Canon circles, such a thing could be permissible as an 'exception' to the lore as lore is always established by setting rules and watching the story break those rules, and then explain the reasons in order to expand the lore.

So in this case, being a White Mage is permissible in any group that tolerates or encourages it. Anyone within your Personal Canon circle who's cool with it would be fine, as you're the one in control of who's in your own circle, and of course, Headcannon you pretty much have free reign.

In short, the smaller your circle, the more you can get away with bending or breaking lore. Just be respectful of those who are trying to keep the public light more adherent to it.

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RP issue with White Mage

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes