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Cato · **07-07-2015, 11:04 PM**

(07-07-2015, 11:01 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 10:57 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's a shame that complex morality is lost on a lot of people who insist on treating elements of the story as black or white. Most - if not all - of the nations that we've seen in-game have their perks and drawbacks. Very few are without redeeming qualities.

This does, in fact, mirror the real world in many ways throughout our own history. For all the bad things associated with the Roman Empire there was, in fact, a lot of great stuff to come out of it - and if it didn't exist our culture would be exceptionally different in the present day.

For example, we'd be lacking a lot of good TV shoes and movies.

Yeah. On a side note the popularity of the likes of The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones prove there's quite a lot of interest in intrigue and grey morality. The latter in particular seems to have influenced FFXIV quite a bit in some ways - and it's fairly similar to FFXII and FF Tactics in that there's a lot of political intrigue.

The story may not be perfect but overall I enjoy it immensely - and compared to what certain other MMO's are offering at the moment I'm very happy with what FFXIV has on offer.

Verad · **07-08-2015, 12:51 AM**

(07-07-2015, 10:57 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's a shame that complex morality is lost on a lot of people who insist on treating elements of the story as black or white. Most - if not all - of the nations that we've seen in-game have their perks and drawbacks. Very few are without redeeming qualities.

This does, in fact, mirror the real world in many ways throughout our own history. For all the bad things associated with the Roman Empire there was, in fact, a lot of great stuff to come out of it - and if it didn't exist our culture would be exceptionally different in the present day.

I don't see why you have to keep dirtying up a perfectly good black and white morality tale with unnecessary ambiguities.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-08-2015, 01:05 AM**

(07-08-2015, 12:51 AM)Verad Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 10:57 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's a shame that complex morality is lost on a lot of people who insist on treating elements of the story as black or white. Most - if not all - of the nations that we've seen in-game have their perks and drawbacks. Very few are without redeeming qualities.

This does, in fact, mirror the real world in many ways throughout our own history. For all the bad things associated with the Roman Empire there was, in fact, a lot of great stuff to come out of it - and if it didn't exist our culture would be exceptionally different in the present day.

I don't see why you have to keep dirtying up a perfectly good black and white morality tale with unnecessary ambiguities.

If I wanted a good tale of blacks and whites, I'd watch an interracial porno.

Greys are so much more fun.

Verad · **07-08-2015, 01:07 AM**

(07-08-2015, 01:05 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: If I wanted a good tale of blacks and whites, I'd watch an interracial porno.

Greys are so much more fun.

They tend to be disturbingly identical to the point of boredom. This is true of both the morality and the alien.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-08-2015, 01:12 AM**

(07-08-2015, 01:07 AM)Verad Wrote:
(07-08-2015, 01:05 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: If I wanted a good tale of blacks and whites, I'd watch an interracial porno.

Greys are so much more fun.

They tend to be disturbingly identical to the point of boredom. This is true of both the morality and the alien.

I'm curious why you think that? I mean morally grey as in the game itself does not make a statement on the morality of certain actions. I much rather prefer that than one with a morality that is handed down from the devs.

For example, I think the central question posed at the end of 3.0 is a very interesting one.
"Is the Hero of Light becoming a greater destabilizing force than the Primals and enemies they slay?"

"Are you in fact playing the villain?"

I think that's far more enjoyable than "Woo we saved Ishgard." Though of course, it's a matter of opinion.

Cato · **07-08-2015, 01:12 AM**

(07-08-2015, 12:51 AM)Verad Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 10:57 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's a shame that complex morality is lost on a lot of people who insist on treating elements of the story as black or white. Most - if not all - of the nations that we've seen in-game have their perks and drawbacks. Very few are without redeeming qualities.

This does, in fact, mirror the real world in many ways throughout our own history. For all the bad things associated with the Roman Empire there was, in fact, a lot of great stuff to come out of it - and if it didn't exist our culture would be exceptionally different in the present day.

I don't see why you have to keep dirtying up a perfectly good black and white morality tale with unnecessary ambiguities.

Each to their own. FFXIV doesn't lack characters that are 100% good or 100% evil - though they are, ironically, the characters that I find less engaging then those with realistic flaws, misguided intentions and tragic backgrounds.

I wouldn't consider them to be clones of each other, either. Estinien is very different to Ysayle who is in turn very different from Ilberd.

If it's not to your personal tastes, fair enough - but that doesn't mean it's 'bad'. You are, in fact, potentially not the target audience. Just as I am no longer Blizzard's target audience after losing faith in the direction they decided to take WoW in.

LiadansWhisper · **07-08-2015, 01:44 AM**

(07-08-2015, 01:12 AM)Graeham Wrote:
(07-08-2015, 12:51 AM)Verad Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 10:57 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's a shame that complex morality is lost on a lot of people who insist on treating elements of the story as black or white. Most - if not all - of the nations that we've seen in-game have their perks and drawbacks. Very few are without redeeming qualities.

This does, in fact, mirror the real world in many ways throughout our own history. For all the bad things associated with the Roman Empire there was, in fact, a lot of great stuff to come out of it - and if it didn't exist our culture would be exceptionally different in the present day.

I don't see why you have to keep dirtying up a perfectly good black and white morality tale with unnecessary ambiguities.

Each to their own. FFXIV doesn't lack characters that are 100% good or 100% evil - though they are, ironically, the characters that I find less engaging then those with realistic flaws, misguided intentions and tragic backgrounds.

I wouldn't consider them to be clones of each other, either. Estinien is very different to Ysayle who is in turn very different from Ilberd.

If it's not to your personal tastes, fair enough - but that doesn't mean it's 'bad'. You are, in fact, potentially not the target audience. Just as I am no longer Blizzard's target audience after losing faith in the direction they decided to take WoW in.

I think Verad was joking. Â >.>

Cato · **07-08-2015, 02:04 AM**

(07-08-2015, 01:44 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-08-2015, 01:12 AM)Graeham Wrote:
(07-08-2015, 12:51 AM)Verad Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 10:57 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's a shame that complex morality is lost on a lot of people who insist on treating elements of the story as black or white. Most - if not all - of the nations that we've seen in-game have their perks and drawbacks. Very few are without redeeming qualities.

This does, in fact, mirror the real world in many ways throughout our own history. For all the bad things associated with the Roman Empire there was, in fact, a lot of great stuff to come out of it - and if it didn't exist our culture would be exceptionally different in the present day.

I don't see why you have to keep dirtying up a perfectly good black and white morality tale with unnecessary ambiguities.

Each to their own. FFXIV doesn't lack characters that are 100% good or 100% evil - though they are, ironically, the characters that I find less engaging then those with realistic flaws, misguided intentions and tragic backgrounds.

I wouldn't consider them to be clones of each other, either. Estinien is very different to Ysayle who is in turn very different from Ilberd.

If it's not to your personal tastes, fair enough - but that doesn't mean it's 'bad'. You are, in fact, potentially not the target audience. Just as I am no longer Blizzard's target audience after losing faith in the direction they decided to take WoW in.

I think Verad was joking. Â >.>

Fair enough! Though, it can be pretty hard to tell as much since I'm not privy to the inner workings of every poster. Wink

Kellach Woods · **07-08-2015, 04:30 PM**

There's very little moral ambiguity presented honestly in the game. They could be doing a whole lot more with it, but because they wrote themselves an enemy that's so fucking powerful no city can stand up to him alone, the Eorzean Alliance won't be eating itself alive anytime soon.
And that would certainly put the moral ambiguity to a high note.

V'aleera · **07-08-2015, 04:38 PM**

(07-08-2015, 01:12 AM)Graeham Wrote: I wouldn't consider them to be clones of each other, either. Estinien is very different to Ysayle who is in turn very different from Ilberd.

I'm curious as to why you would qualify Ilberd as morally grey. Morally grey typically involves some form of redeeming factor (large or small) and I'm not really sure what his is. He's just a spiteful, angry man lashing out at the people he projects all of his problems onto, with no apparent greater purpose than to hurt people he doesn't like.

Asmodean · **07-08-2015, 04:46 PM**

(07-08-2015, 04:38 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(07-08-2015, 01:12 AM)Graeham Wrote: I wouldn't consider them to be clones of each other, either. Estinien is very different to Ysayle who is in turn very different from Ilberd.
I'm curious as to why you would qualify Ilberd as morally grey. Morally grey typically involves some form of redeeming factor (large or small) and I'm not really sure what his is. He's just a spiteful, angry man lashing out at the people he projects all of his problems onto, with no apparent greater purpose than to hurt people he doesn't like.

He falls on the far more darker side of the gray scale in my mind. He wants his homeland free. Who wouldn't? But the world has broken him. He lashs out seeing anything not aiding in freeing his home is in the way and has to be removed.

He means well but has become a villain because he see no other way. Like Dr. Doom from marvel. He seems every but the reasons that have made him become who he is makes him a far deeper character then a standard villain.

Griffith! · **07-08-2015, 05:33 PM**

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I don't see a lot of ambiguity in the game. Most of the time, it's pretty clear that the moral scale is supposed to fall on "Main character and allies = good and righteous" and "everyone opposed to them = evil". That doesn't mean all of them are likable or unlikable, sympathetic or unsympathetic, or even measurably good or bad. I'm just saying we're a long way from playing protagonist villains no matter what allusions the game makes.

But I also haven't really touched the 3.0 content yet, so there's that.

Kellach Woods · **07-08-2015, 05:37 PM**

Other than flights of fancy the 3.0 content doesn't really throw shade on the main character's group.

V'aleera · **07-08-2015, 06:21 PM**

(07-08-2015, 04:46 PM)Asmodean Wrote: He wants his homeland free. Who wouldn't?

He means well but has become a villain because he see no other way. Like Dr. Doom from marvel.

Here's my issue though: sure he wants his homeland free, but he's done literally nothing to work toward that goal. As a matter of fact, by betraying the Crystal Braves he's worked explicitly against a unifying force of Eorzea which is the only thing that will ever get Ala Mhigo back.

It's just my opinion that if all it takes to be morally grey is to have feelings the term kind of loses all meaning.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-08-2015, 06:30 PM**

(07-08-2015, 06:21 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(07-08-2015, 04:46 PM)Asmodean Wrote: He wants his homeland free. Who wouldn't?

He means well but has become a villain because he see no other way. Like Dr. Doom from marvel.
Here's my issue though: sure he wants his homeland free, but he's done literally nothing to work toward that goal. As a matter of fact, by betraying the Crystal Braves he's worked explicitly against a unifying force of Eorzea which is the only thing that will ever get Ala Mhigo back.

It's just my opinion that if all it takes to be morally grey is to have feelings the term kind of loses all meaning.

We don't know who Ilberd is actually working for, and what they have promised him. In fact FFXIV does a good job about keeping the player in the dark about many things.

On the surface though, yeah, he's shooting himself in the foot. Though logically, even a united Eorzea would stand little chance against the full might of Garlemald.

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FFXIV Politics Thread(3.0 Spoilers)

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