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Gegenji · **09-15-2015, 04:11 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:07 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner.

Right here would be the problem in the situation, I think. You know a bomb is coming, and you know it's a bomb, but the new friend was not let in on it. At the very least, if you have even the faintest inkling that it could cause problems, it might be a good idea to let them know. Communication, as always, is critical - and this right here is a lack of communication.

That's a great point, but it still doesn't really address the issue either. Do you tell the guy dropping the bomb he can't do it even if its something his character has done in the past? What if the new guy refuses to go along with it. At this point because one person doesn't like the other, maybe because they didn't know about him or whatever, their OOC ideas of what the plot should be is effectively blocking out another character. As the mediator between the two how do you handle that?

If there is communication, it might prevent the issue. Old Friend wants to drop this bomb and tells you, you tell him you want to discuss it with New Friend. You open a dialogue between Both Friends and hopefully manage to reach a decision that makes everyone happy. And if they're both friends, you shouldn't really "surprise" one with the other - if Old Friend wants to join the RP with New Friend, New Friend should have a say in it as well because he's part of said RP.

And if their way of participating in said RP is to block out one of the other participants, then that's not very nice at all, is it?

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 04:11 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:07 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner.

Right here would be the problem in the situation, I think. You know a bomb is coming, and you know it's a bomb, but the new friend was not let in on it. At the very least, if you have even the faintest inkling that it could cause problems, it might be a good idea to let them know. Communication, as always, is critical - and this right here is a lack of communication.

That's a great point, but it still doesn't really address the issue either. Do you tell the guy dropping the bomb he can't do it even if its something his character has done in the past? What if the new guy refuses to go along with it. At this point because one person doesn't like the other, maybe because they didn't know about him or whatever, their OOC ideas of what the plot should be is effectively blocking out another character. As the mediator between the two how do you handle that?

What would your character do?

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 04:14 PM**

(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:41 PM)Diskwrite Wrote: I think, if this is something that would completely disrupt your and your RP partner's plans, then you should have a conversation with your RP partner about it. I get the "roll with it" idea entirely, but when this happens, its important to keep your RP partner(s) in the loop.

Thing is, your character has their story and their character(s) have theirs. But when you're working together, it's not just your story anymore. It's a collaboration!Â If something happens that would affect your RP partners' stories so thoroughly, you should include them in the conversation. UNLESS, you have established in conversations with them before, you know they like being surprised that way.

My RP partner and I love surprising each other with twists and turns, but if something came up that would completely change our plans, I'd talk to her about it. We'd figure out together how we wanted to handle it.

Well this is an interesting point because I think a significant number of people feel this way, but let me ask you this:

You've got an RPer you've shared months of in character development with. You decide to bring in a new character who's RP would make your old RP difficult. You two talk for a monthish, then start your new RP with your new RPer that affects your original RPer. About a week in the first guy comes back to you and says, "Well hey, this really effects my plot too, I understand its your characters but I should have been consulted. Even so I want to remain IC and avoid drama so do you mind if I join in the RP." You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner. Suppose they disagree, new guy doesn't like old guy, but old guy's right you are affecting his character too.Â

What do you as one of the points in this triangle and probably the most important point as you're the mutual link? Do you go with your old stand by because you have exponentially more history with that person or the new guy? What do you tell either of them? Do you write off your old RPs to line them up with the new guy even if that's not fair to the old? It raises a ton of questions that don't have good answers at all.

What does it have to do with the other people? Â It's what your character does that matters. Â If it leads you away from your old RP partner and you want to continue, you can try to make an alt. Â But characters have to do what characters have to do.

I feel this is insufficient as the character isn't a person and thus does not have a will of their own. It's perfectly fine to plan things out if you want to make a plot. Improvisation will only take you so far. As a group writing project, this plot thread failed because the participants did not have meshing styles, had opposing goals, did not communicate, and while endpoint and starting point were established, I suspect the plot structure initially agreed upon lacked the flexibility to continue regardless. I'm fine with spontaneous rp, but to say planned rp is not rp as Hammersmith did is a rash generalization. It works better for some writers than others. Some are satisfied with playingÂ a bit role and "living the life." Others such as myself are constantly working towards a goal. Every rp I have done since my start, both planned and otherwise, I have used to push towards one or more of the five or six possible conclusions I've considered. Nothing is set in stone, but it is a real plot, not random rp. The key difference from simply playing solitaire and writing fan fiction is that it's collaborative work that exploits the different voice and stylistic tendencies of multiple writers, and as such you need some room to modify on the fly. Do not account for this factor and you'll end up with OP's situation

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 04:15 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:11 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 04:07 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner.

Right here would be the problem in the situation, I think. You know a bomb is coming, and you know it's a bomb, but the new friend was not let in on it. At the very least, if you have even the faintest inkling that it could cause problems, it might be a good idea to let them know. Communication, as always, is critical - and this right here is a lack of communication.

That's a great point, but it still doesn't really address the issue either. Do you tell the guy dropping the bomb he can't do it even if its something his character has done in the past? What if the new guy refuses to go along with it. At this point because one person doesn't like the other, maybe because they didn't know about him or whatever, their OOC ideas of what the plot should be is effectively blocking out another character. As the mediator between the two how do you handle that?

What would your character do?

Personally, Raeaon would side with his older friends. When he's hurt, when he's down, when he doesn't know what to do he goes back to his base, the people who helped him become who he is. I know the newer player might not like that it might interrupt whatever we were plotting, but ICly and OOCly, those people are Rae's friends, like family some of them and I think the hours and the time and the development we've put into each other ICly and OOCly is more binding than a week or two of new RP and some discussion time.

Diskwrite · **09-15-2015, 04:43 PM**

Well, my RP partner and I have been friends for a good 2-3 years, and that friendship is a lot more important to me than any story. But we do work together very, very well. So what I would do in this situation was talk to her and work out, together, what we wanted to do. She takes priority. Hopefully everyone would be able to work things out amicably, but if not, then I'd go with her.

We've been collaborating very closely on our character's stories anyway. And it's not like either of us would make a big deal out of a plot twist (or derailment) unless it was very important. So... it works for us.

Whether or not that's a good idea in the situation you're describing? Well... I can't answer that.

Communication is key. But if your old RP partner and your new RP partner can't come to an agreement, then you might have to make a hard decision. I don't think there's necessarily a "right" answer here. Weigh what's important to you, communicate, and act accordingly.

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 04:51 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:43 PM)Diskwrite Wrote: Well, my RP partner and I have been friends for a good 2-3 years, and that friendship is a lot more important to me than any story. But we do work together very, very well. So what I would do in this situation was talk to her and work out, together, what we wanted to do. She takes priority. Hopefully everyone would be able to work things out amicably, but if not, then I'd go with her.

We've been collaborating very closely on our character's stories anyway. And it's not like either of us would make a big deal out of a plot twist (or derailment) unless it was very important. So... it works for us.

Whether or not that's a good idea in the situation you're describing? Well... I can't answer that.

Communication is key. But if your old RP partner and your new RP partner can't come to an agreement, then you might have to make a hard decision. I don't think there's necessarily a "right" answer here. Weigh what's important to you, communicate, and act accordingly.

I 100% Agree ^.^ That was the point of this thread, I wanted to see what factors people weigh when making these decisions.

I know I feel bad for the middleman in this situation, Â but ultimately I personally believe the best thing to do is give the bomb to the older RPer. If when deciding a new plotline you did something to damage someone else's who you worked with very closely because you didn't consider how changing your interactions/plot/story with them would affect them and when they still want to be apart of things if the newer RPer isn't willing to have some leeway or be willing to not have the plot they wanted go as planned, that's not the older guy's fault.

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 05:10 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:14 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:41 PM)Diskwrite Wrote: I think, if this is something that would completely disrupt your and your RP partner's plans, then you should have a conversation with your RP partner about it. I get the "roll with it" idea entirely, but when this happens, its important to keep your RP partner(s) in the loop.

Thing is, your character has their story and their character(s) have theirs. But when you're working together, it's not just your story anymore. It's a collaboration!Â If something happens that would affect your RP partners' stories so thoroughly, you should include them in the conversation. UNLESS, you have established in conversations with them before, you know they like being surprised that way.

My RP partner and I love surprising each other with twists and turns, but if something came up that would completely change our plans, I'd talk to her about it. We'd figure out together how we wanted to handle it.

Well this is an interesting point because I think a significant number of people feel this way, but let me ask you this:

You've got an RPer you've shared months of in character development with. You decide to bring in a new character who's RP would make your old RP difficult. You two talk for a monthish, then start your new RP with your new RPer that affects your original RPer. About a week in the first guy comes back to you and says, "Well hey, this really effects my plot too, I understand its your characters but I should have been consulted. Even so I want to remain IC and avoid drama so do you mind if I join in the RP." You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner. Suppose they disagree, new guy doesn't like old guy, but old guy's right you are affecting his character too.Â

What do you as one of the points in this triangle and probably the most important point as you're the mutual link? Do you go with your old stand by because you have exponentially more history with that person or the new guy? What do you tell either of them? Do you write off your old RPs to line them up with the new guy even if that's not fair to the old? It raises a ton of questions that don't have good answers at all.

What does it have to do with the other people? Â It's what your character does that matters. Â If it leads you away from your old RP partner and you want to continue, you can try to make an alt. Â But characters have to do what characters have to do.
I feel this is insufficient as the character isn't a person and thus does not have a will of their own. It's perfectly fine to plan things out if you want to make a plot. Improvisation will only take you so far. As a group writing project, this plot thread failed because the participants did not have meshing styles, had opposing goals, did not communicate, and while endpoint and starting point were established, I suspect the plot structure initially agreed upon lacked the flexibility to continue regardless. I'm fine with spontaneous rp, but to say planned rp is not rp as Hammersmith did is a rash generalization. It works better for some writers than others. Some are satisfied with playingÂ a bit role and "living the life." Others such as myself are constantly working towards a goal. Every rp I have done since my start, both planned and otherwise, I have used to push towards one or more of the five or six possible conclusions I've considered. Nothing is set in stone, but it is a real plot, not random rp. The key difference from simply playing solitaire and writing fan fiction is that it's collaborative work that exploits the different voice and stylistic tendencies of multiple writers, and as such you need some room to modify on the fly. Do not account for this factor and you'll end up with OP's situation

"Will" isn't what I'm going for, and it's far from insufficient. Â It's pure, is what it is. Â See there's a problem with some of this...

There's a problem called OOC bleed. Â It is the absolute plague of RP. Â That's when things that exist outside character bleed into character reactions. Â Times when your character does something entirely out of character because you are friends with another player. Â Times when players develop somewhat romantic feelings for each other and it bleeds into character development. Â Times when RP becomes more about players than about characters.

This is a blaring red siren to anyone who's seen this. Â The problem is that what you're not recognizing is that the OP's situation is a huge, flaming, red problem. Â Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere if this has become an OOC situation. Â There has to be a sharp and bold division between what you think and want in-character and out-of-character. Â That's why this is important:

(09-15-2015, 04:15 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: Personally, Raeaon would side with his older friends. When he's hurt, when he's down, when he doesn't know what to do he goes back to his base, the people who helped him become who he is. I know the newer player might not like that it might interrupt whatever we were plotting, but ICly and OOCly, those people are Rae's friends, like family some of them and I think the hours and the time and the development we've put into each other ICly and OOCly is more binding than a week or two of new RP and some discussion time.

OOC is completely and utterly inconsequential. Â ICly, the character goes back to his base. Â He values his original friends first. Â If this is what the character would do in this situation, then this is what the character should do in this situation. Â End of debate. Â If the new player doesn't like that, the only thing that needs to be said is, "It's nothing personal, but this is IC. Â I can run an alt with you or something, but this is what makes sense. Â I'm sorry if that's a problem, but my RP can't be driven by OOC issues."

What you do OOC, explaining why it works this way IC, trying to diffuse the situation, making sure they know it's not personal in any way, that's all bomb-diffusing. Â But in-character? Â I might be something of an old-school purist, but the second I have to start dealing with people's OOC feelings for IC actions, that's not a delicate situation. Â That's a five-siren, red-flag warning that something's wrong.

Curve balls, even ones that are bad for your character, are just development turns. Â They aren't meant to be personal. Â Believe me, some of my worst moments as a roleplayer weren't story moments, but moments when bleed suddenly turned into a whirling tornado of OOC rage. Â That's something I start heading off early, when it's starting as a bleed situation. Â By the time you get to the point where you're forced to deal with OOC disentangling to get on with your RP, it's already too late (not that it's necessarily Saint's fault, these things can be remarkably hard to see for what they are until it's too late).

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 05:15 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:10 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 04:14 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:41 PM)Diskwrite Wrote: I think, if this is something that would completely disrupt your and your RP partner's plans, then you should have a conversation with your RP partner about it. I get the "roll with it" idea entirely, but when this happens, its important to keep your RP partner(s) in the loop.

Thing is, your character has their story and their character(s) have theirs. But when you're working together, it's not just your story anymore. It's a collaboration!Â If something happens that would affect your RP partners' stories so thoroughly, you should include them in the conversation. UNLESS, you have established in conversations with them before, you know they like being surprised that way.

My RP partner and I love surprising each other with twists and turns, but if something came up that would completely change our plans, I'd talk to her about it. We'd figure out together how we wanted to handle it.

Well this is an interesting point because I think a significant number of people feel this way, but let me ask you this:

You've got an RPer you've shared months of in character development with. You decide to bring in a new character who's RP would make your old RP difficult. You two talk for a monthish, then start your new RP with your new RPer that affects your original RPer. About a week in the first guy comes back to you and says, "Well hey, this really effects my plot too, I understand its your characters but I should have been consulted. Even so I want to remain IC and avoid drama so do you mind if I join in the RP." You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner. Suppose they disagree, new guy doesn't like old guy, but old guy's right you are affecting his character too.Â

What do you as one of the points in this triangle and probably the most important point as you're the mutual link? Do you go with your old stand by because you have exponentially more history with that person or the new guy? What do you tell either of them? Do you write off your old RPs to line them up with the new guy even if that's not fair to the old? It raises a ton of questions that don't have good answers at all.

What does it have to do with the other people? Â It's what your character does that matters. Â If it leads you away from your old RP partner and you want to continue, you can try to make an alt. Â But characters have to do what characters have to do.
I feel this is insufficient as the character isn't a person and thus does not have a will of their own. It's perfectly fine to plan things out if you want to make a plot. Improvisation will only take you so far. As a group writing project, this plot thread failed because the participants did not have meshing styles, had opposing goals, did not communicate, and while endpoint and starting point were established, I suspect the plot structure initially agreed upon lacked the flexibility to continue regardless. I'm fine with spontaneous rp, but to say planned rp is not rp as Hammersmith did is a rash generalization. It works better for some writers than others. Some are satisfied with playingÂ a bit role and "living the life." Others such as myself are constantly working towards a goal. Every rp I have done since my start, both planned and otherwise, I have used to push towards one or more of the five or six possible conclusions I've considered. Nothing is set in stone, but it is a real plot, not random rp. The key difference from simply playing solitaire and writing fan fiction is that it's collaborative work that exploits the different voice and stylistic tendencies of multiple writers, and as such you need some room to modify on the fly. Do not account for this factor and you'll end up with OP's situation

"Will" isn't what I'm going for, and it's far from insufficient. Â It's pure, is what it is. Â See there's a problem with some of this...

There's a problem called OOC bleed. Â It is the absolute plague of RP. Â That's when things that exist outside character bleed into character reactions. Â Times when your character does something entirely out of character because you are friends with another player. Â Times when players develop somewhat romantic feelings for each other and it bleeds into character development. Â Times when RP becomes more about players than about characters.

This is a blaring red siren to anyone who's seen this. Â The problem is that what you're not recognizing is that the OP's situation is a huge, flaming, red problem. Â Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere if this has become an OOC situation. Â There has to be a sharp and bold division between what you think and want in-character and out-of-character. Â That's why this is important:

(09-15-2015, 04:15 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: Personally, Raeaon would side with his older friends. When he's hurt, when he's down, when he doesn't know what to do he goes back to his base, the people who helped him become who he is. I know the newer player might not like that it might interrupt whatever we were plotting, but ICly and OOCly, those people are Rae's friends, like family some of them and I think the hours and the time and the development we've put into each other ICly and OOCly is more binding than a week or two of new RP and some discussion time.

OOC is completely and utterly inconsequential. Â ICly, the character goes back to his base. Â He values his original friends first. Â If this is what the character would do in this situation, then this is what the character should do in this situation. Â End of debate. Â If the new player doesn't like that, the only thing that needs to be said is, "It's nothing personal, but this is IC. Â I can run an alt with you or something, but this is what makes sense. Â I'm sorry if that's a problem, but my RP can't be driven by OOC issues."

What you do OOC, explaining why it works this way IC, trying to diffuse the situation, making sure they know it's not personal in any way, that's all bomb-diffusing. Â But in-character? Â I might be something of an old-school purist, but the second I have to start dealing with people's OOC feelings for IC actions, that's not a delicate situation. Â That's a five-siren, red-flag warning that something's wrong.

Curve balls, even ones that are bad for your character, are just development turns. Â They aren't meant to be personal. Â Believe me, some of my worst moments as a roleplayer weren't story moments, but moments when bleed suddenly turned into a whirling tornado of OOC rage. Â That's something I start heading off early, when it's starting as a bleed situation. Â By the time you get to the point where you're forced to deal with OOC disentangling to get on with your RP, it's already too late (not that it's necessarily Saint's fault, these things can be remarkably hard to see for what they are until it's too late).

Â
I appriciate the points but seriously, this isn't an issue I'm dealing with in game -.-' Its not an issue. The point of the thread was to bring up discussion on a topic that I think probably does arise pretty regularly in RP and determine how different people deal with it. No body is at fault for anything ICly or OOCly lol, I'm just trying to start good discussion :p

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 05:19 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:15 PM)SaintEaonÂ Wrote: I appriciate the points but seriously, this isn't an issue I'm dealing with in game -.-' Its not an issue. The point of the thread was to bring up discussion on a topic that I think probably does arise pretty regularly in RP and determine how different people deal with it. No body is at fault for anything ICly or OOCly lol, I'm just trying to start good discussion :p

I know it's not something that you'd probably want to deal with, but seriously, if this is a question, there is a problem somewhere. Â Honestly, if there wasn't an OOC problem, this isn't something that needs discussed. Â If your character has a whiskey every time he walks into a bar, you don't need to deal with the OOC merits of whether or not you should get a whiskey.

Be very, very careful. Â I don't pretend to know the details of what's going on (frankly, I'm on Gilgamesh because I worry a lot about bleed), but from the very first post, that's been what I'm trying to hint at.

You don't need to take my advice and you can do with it what you want, but if this is even coming up, there's a problem. Â It could be you, it could be someone else, but the fact of the matter is that if you know what the character should be doing in this situation, it's a no-brainer.

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 05:20 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:10 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 04:14 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:41 PM)Diskwrite Wrote: I think, if this is something that would completely disrupt your and your RP partner's plans, then you should have a conversation with your RP partner about it. I get the "roll with it" idea entirely, but when this happens, its important to keep your RP partner(s) in the loop.

Thing is, your character has their story and their character(s) have theirs. But when you're working together, it's not just your story anymore. It's a collaboration!Â If something happens that would affect your RP partners' stories so thoroughly, you should include them in the conversation. UNLESS, you have established in conversations with them before, you know they like being surprised that way.

My RP partner and I love surprising each other with twists and turns, but if something came up that would completely change our plans, I'd talk to her about it. We'd figure out together how we wanted to handle it.

Well this is an interesting point because I think a significant number of people feel this way, but let me ask you this:

You've got an RPer you've shared months of in character development with. You decide to bring in a new character who's RP would make your old RP difficult. You two talk for a monthish, then start your new RP with your new RPer that affects your original RPer. About a week in the first guy comes back to you and says, "Well hey, this really effects my plot too, I understand its your characters but I should have been consulted. Even so I want to remain IC and avoid drama so do you mind if I join in the RP." You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner. Suppose they disagree, new guy doesn't like old guy, but old guy's right you are affecting his character too.Â

What do you as one of the points in this triangle and probably the most important point as you're the mutual link? Do you go with your old stand by because you have exponentially more history with that person or the new guy? What do you tell either of them? Do you write off your old RPs to line them up with the new guy even if that's not fair to the old? It raises a ton of questions that don't have good answers at all.

What does it have to do with the other people? Â It's what your character does that matters. Â If it leads you away from your old RP partner and you want to continue, you can try to make an alt. Â But characters have to do what characters have to do.
I feel this is insufficient as the character isn't a person and thus does not have a will of their own. It's perfectly fine to plan things out if you want to make a plot. Improvisation will only take you so far. As a group writing project, this plot thread failed because the participants did not have meshing styles, had opposing goals, did not communicate, and while endpoint and starting point were established, I suspect the plot structure initially agreed upon lacked the flexibility to continue regardless. I'm fine with spontaneous rp, but to say planned rp is not rp as Hammersmith did is a rash generalization. It works better for some writers than others. Some are satisfied with playingÂ a bit role and "living the life." Others such as myself are constantly working towards a goal. Every rp I have done since my start, both planned and otherwise, I have used to push towards one or more of the five or six possible conclusions I've considered. Nothing is set in stone, but it is a real plot, not random rp. The key difference from simply playing solitaire and writing fan fiction is that it's collaborative work that exploits the different voice and stylistic tendencies of multiple writers, and as such you need some room to modify on the fly. Do not account for this factor and you'll end up with OP's situation

"Will" isn't what I'm going for, and it's far from insufficient. Â It's pure, is what it is. Â See there's a problem with some of this...

There's a problem called OOC bleed. Â It is the absolute plague of RP. Â That's when things that exist outside character bleed into character reactions. Â Times when your character does something entirely out of character because you are friends with another player. Â Times when players develop somewhat romantic feelings for each other and it bleeds into character development. Â Times when RP becomes more about players than about characters.

This is a blaring red siren to anyone who's seen this. Â The problem is that what you're not recognizing is that the OP's situation is a huge, flaming, red problem. Â Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere if this has become an OOC situation. Â There has to be a sharp and bold division between what you think and want in-character and out-of-character. Â That's why this is important:

(09-15-2015, 04:15 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: Personally, Raeaon would side with his older friends. When he's hurt, when he's down, when he doesn't know what to do he goes back to his base, the people who helped him become who he is. I know the newer player might not like that it might interrupt whatever we were plotting, but ICly and OOCly, those people are Rae's friends, like family some of them and I think the hours and the time and the development we've put into each other ICly and OOCly is more binding than a week or two of new RP and some discussion time.

OOC is completely and utterly inconsequential. Â ICly, the character goes back to his base. Â He values his original friends first. Â If this is what the character would do in this situation, then this is what the character should do in this situation. Â End of debate. Â If the new player doesn't like that, the only thing that needs to be said is, "It's nothing personal, but this is IC. Â I can run an alt with you or something, but this is what makes sense. Â I'm sorry if that's a problem, but my RP can't be driven by OOC issues."

What you do OOC, explaining why it works this way IC, trying to diffuse the situation, making sure they know it's not personal in any way, that's all bomb-diffusing. Â But in-character? Â I might be something of an old-school purist, but the second I have to start dealing with people's OOC feelings for IC actions, that's not a delicate situation. Â That's a five-siren, red-flag warning that something's wrong.

Curve balls, even ones that are bad for your character, are just development turns. Â They aren't meant to be personal. Â Believe me, some of my worst moments as a roleplayer weren't story moments, but moments when bleed suddenly turned into a whirling tornado of OOC rage. Â That's something I start heading off early, when it's starting as a bleed situation. Â By the time you get to the point where you're forced to deal with OOC disentangling to get on with your RP, it's already too late (not that it's necessarily Saint's fault, these things can be remarkably hard to see for what they are until it's too late).

Maybe I just lack RPC's vaunted bleed paranoia, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have goals. It is unreasonable to get offended when someone is not interested in playing exactly the way you intended them t, sure. If you didn't communicate your plans to them properly, then fine, but I think it shouldn't be an issue where you worry someone else will take the harm to their character personally. It is totally legitimate to be disappointed if someone has said directly to you "we are gonna do this plan" and then scrap it with out showing them the courtesy of letting them know. That has nothing to do with bleed.

Zezeki · **09-15-2015, 05:21 PM**

When I get bored.

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 05:24 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:20 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:10 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 04:14 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:59 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 03:54 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: Well this is an interesting point because I think a significant number of people feel this way, but let me ask you this:

You've got an RPer you've shared months of in character development with. You decide to bring in a new character who's RP would make your old RP difficult. You two talk for a monthish, then start your new RP with your new RPer that affects your original RPer. About a week in the first guy comes back to you and says, "Well hey, this really effects my plot too, I understand its your characters but I should have been consulted. Even so I want to remain IC and avoid drama so do you mind if I join in the RP." You let your old friend join in your new "plot" with this new guy, and he drops an atomic bomb on the plot that you knew was coming but not your new partner. Suppose they disagree, new guy doesn't like old guy, but old guy's right you are affecting his character too.Â

What do you as one of the points in this triangle and probably the most important point as you're the mutual link? Do you go with your old stand by because you have exponentially more history with that person or the new guy? What do you tell either of them? Do you write off your old RPs to line them up with the new guy even if that's not fair to the old? It raises a ton of questions that don't have good answers at all.

What does it have to do with the other people? Â It's what your character does that matters. Â If it leads you away from your old RP partner and you want to continue, you can try to make an alt. Â But characters have to do what characters have to do.
I feel this is insufficient as the character isn't a person and thus does not have a will of their own. It's perfectly fine to plan things out if you want to make a plot. Improvisation will only take you so far. As a group writing project, this plot thread failed because the participants did not have meshing styles, had opposing goals, did not communicate, and while endpoint and starting point were established, I suspect the plot structure initially agreed upon lacked the flexibility to continue regardless. I'm fine with spontaneous rp, but to say planned rp is not rp as Hammersmith did is a rash generalization. It works better for some writers than others. Some are satisfied with playingÂ a bit role and "living the life." Others such as myself are constantly working towards a goal. Every rp I have done since my start, both planned and otherwise, I have used to push towards one or more of the five or six possible conclusions I've considered. Nothing is set in stone, but it is a real plot, not random rp. The key difference from simply playing solitaire and writing fan fiction is that it's collaborative work that exploits the different voice and stylistic tendencies of multiple writers, and as such you need some room to modify on the fly. Do not account for this factor and you'll end up with OP's situation

"Will" isn't what I'm going for, and it's far from insufficient. Â It's pure, is what it is. Â See there's a problem with some of this...

There's a problem called OOC bleed. Â It is the absolute plague of RP. Â That's when things that exist outside character bleed into character reactions. Â Times when your character does something entirely out of character because you are friends with another player. Â Times when players develop somewhat romantic feelings for each other and it bleeds into character development. Â Times when RP becomes more about players than about characters.

This is a blaring red siren to anyone who's seen this. Â The problem is that what you're not recognizing is that the OP's situation is a huge, flaming, red problem. Â Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere if this has become an OOC situation. Â There has to be a sharp and bold division between what you think and want in-character and out-of-character. Â That's why this is important:

(09-15-2015, 04:15 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: Personally, Raeaon would side with his older friends. When he's hurt, when he's down, when he doesn't know what to do he goes back to his base, the people who helped him become who he is. I know the newer player might not like that it might interrupt whatever we were plotting, but ICly and OOCly, those people are Rae's friends, like family some of them and I think the hours and the time and the development we've put into each other ICly and OOCly is more binding than a week or two of new RP and some discussion time.

OOC is completely and utterly inconsequential. Â ICly, the character goes back to his base. Â He values his original friends first. Â If this is what the character would do in this situation, then this is what the character should do in this situation. Â End of debate. Â If the new player doesn't like that, the only thing that needs to be said is, "It's nothing personal, but this is IC. Â I can run an alt with you or something, but this is what makes sense. Â I'm sorry if that's a problem, but my RP can't be driven by OOC issues."

What you do OOC, explaining why it works this way IC, trying to diffuse the situation, making sure they know it's not personal in any way, that's all bomb-diffusing. Â But in-character? Â I might be something of an old-school purist, but the second I have to start dealing with people's OOC feelings for IC actions, that's not a delicate situation. Â That's a five-siren, red-flag warning that something's wrong.

Curve balls, even ones that are bad for your character, are just development turns. Â They aren't meant to be personal. Â Believe me, some of my worst moments as a roleplayer weren't story moments, but moments when bleed suddenly turned into a whirling tornado of OOC rage. Â That's something I start heading off early, when it's starting as a bleed situation. Â By the time you get to the point where you're forced to deal with OOC disentangling to get on with your RP, it's already too late (not that it's necessarily Saint's fault, these things can be remarkably hard to see for what they are until it's too late).
Maybe I just lack RPC's vaunted bleed paranoia, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have goals. It is unreasonable to get offended when someone is not interested in playing exactly the way you intended them t, sure. If you didn't communicate your plans to them properly, then fine, but I think it shouldn't be an issue where you worry someone else will take the harm to their character personally. It is totally legitimate to be disappointed if someone has said directly to you "we are gonna do this plan" and then scrap it with out showing them the courtesy of letting them know. That has nothing to do with bleed.

Do you have the same problems if it does't get "just scrapped". If it dies organically ICly is that a problem still if its death wouldn't have happened without the third party's intervention?

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 05:25 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:20 PM)Caspar Wrote: Maybe I just lack RPC's vaunted bleed paranoia, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have goals. It is unreasonable to get offended when someone is not interested in playing exactly the way you intended them t, sure. If you didn't communicate your plans to them properly, then fine, but I think it shouldn't be an issue where you worry someone else will take the harm to their character personally. It is totally legitimate to be disappointed if someone has said directly to you "we are gonna do this plan" and then scrap it with out showing them the courtesy of letting them know. That has nothing to do with bleed.

Believe me, it's got nothing to do with RPC's bleed paranoia. Â I'm just a man who's seen this kind of thing blow up before, and I recognize the symptoms. Â The best laid plans can blow up, and that's just what happens. Â If we wanted otherwise, we'd be writing books, not roleplaying with other people. Â I think the moment that you're legitimately worried about someone's OOC reaction to an IC issue, there's a problem somewhere.

Like I said, no one has to take me seriously, but that's the kind of thing that would absolutely be sending up a red flag for me. Â Either I need to check myself or someone else. Â Bleed is a problem, and if you don't take care of it early, it can get much, much worse.

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 05:26 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:19 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:15 PM)SaintEaonÂ Wrote: I appriciate the points but seriously, this isn't an issue I'm dealing with in game -.-' Its not an issue. The point of the thread was to bring up discussion on a topic that I think probably does arise pretty regularly in RP and determine how different people deal with it. No body is at fault for anything ICly or OOCly lol, I'm just trying to start good discussion :p

I know it's not something that you'd probably want to deal with, but seriously, if this is a question, there is a problem somewhere. Â Honestly, if there wasn't an OOC problem, this isn't something that needs discussed. Â If your character has a whiskey every time he walks into a bar, you don't need to deal with the OOC merits of whether or not you should get a whiskey.

Be very, very careful. Â I don't pretend to know the details of what's going on (frankly, I'm on Gilgamesh because I worry a lot about bleed), but from the very first post, that's been what I'm trying to hint at.

You don't need to take my advice and you can do with it what you want, but if this is even coming up, there's a problem. Â It could be you, it could be someone else, but the fact of the matter is that if you know what the character should be doing in this situation, it's a no-brainer.

I mean you're allowed to be incorrect with your speculation. I come from an RTS background where one of the best ways to play is generally discuss the game. I still think some Starcraft 2 builds and strategies would have never been discovered if not for people talking about them.

Having a problem and being involved in it, and knowing of these kinds of problems and being willing to discuss and talk about them aren't the same thing.

But you're right for me those would immediately be a huge red flag. Anytime someone draws a line super arbitrarily like that that basically says "My way or the high way." You're about to run out of road really fast.

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 05:28 PM**

If it dies icly, I'm not sure what the problem is? You don't have to execute your storyline with those people specifically. Everyone needs to be on board. This is how things turned out, and if you're dissatisfied with the result, maybe try a simlar plot later with different collaborators or next time include flexibility so as to be able to accommodate different styles and disparate rp goals as the need arises.

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