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Eva · **07-14-2010, 08:43 AM**

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Castiel Wrote:Your character shouldn't see him/herself as a villain at all.

Castiel hit the nail on the head with this right here!!

An important aspect I think any villain needs to have (or to have at least considered) is motivation. "Evil for the sake of being evil" doesn't really cut it. I mean, sure there may some people who turn into villains from getting a thrill out of harming others (sociopaths and such). But usually there's some sort of motivating factor. From what I've seen, this may often stem from some initial deed that the character deems "good intentions" and escalate from there (see above quote). Their actions may be given rise from a misplaced sense of justice and righteousness, or perhaps they're seeking revenge for some wrongdoing that was done to them. The best RP gives reasons (maybe not right away, but eventually) for actions taken - this goes for villainy too.

I'm not sure what others from Sylph thought of Constable. I didn't bring him out as much as I maybe should have (my altaphobia), and he was a rather complicated character who ultimately went good and sacrificed himself [in 11] to atone for past misdeeds. But even when he was evil, he was still a devout follower of Altana and used her teachings to reinforce his 'justice' - which is always relative, and usually quite subjective, by the way.

P.S. Thinking of bringing Constable back, though I'm not yet sure in what capacity.
P.P.S. Yeah, I'm hooked on parentheses this morning... shap...
Frustrated

Kashemia · **07-14-2010, 09:09 AM**

While I largely agree that the character dhouldn't see himself as a villain (that's one of the things that can make him seem cartoony"), he doesn't necessarely have to be working for what he believe is good.
I agree that motivation is the key, but there can be many kind of motivations for ultimately do bad things.

Believing it is for a greater good is one. Power or money could be another. Revenge is a third, if something bad happen to the people we love, sometimes something can snap, turning even a good person into a bad one. Just look at the many hollywood vigilante movides about a man going after his kidnapped daughter/avenging his murdered wife/etc. They might be the protagonist of the movie, but are they really good guys?

It can also be things as a misguided sense of loyalty for instance. I once played a character who was more or less the henchman of a NPC I made up for storyline purposes. She wasn't evil as such, but she did pretty bad things, and could easily be seen as an antagonist in many ways.

I think the important thing is to not only think in "good/evil". Not one person is purely good or evil, as we talked about when we were discussing your character, it's important to make the character 3 dimensional. Not everyone is good, and not everyone strive to be (Seraj for instance is not good as such. She is however not evil either). Try building a character with both good and bad side and be careful not to make him just evil, give him both sides. The internal struggle between doing what is right and for instance getting revenge can be super interesting, and very villain worthy.
The most effective villains I've seen, in novels, movies, etc., has always been the ones I sort of liked, or at least understood a bit.

And, as we talked about earlier, be careful with the story. When finding reasons for your character to become a villain, you can easily end up with a very "dark" story. While there is nothing wrong with that, be prepared for the fact that most people have seen the really dark stories many times before and they can easily cmoe off as "clichÃƒÂ©" or overly tragic. Also here, you have to find the balance between good and bad. If his entire family dies, gives him a small light atthe end of the tunnel. That makes it all the more efficient when he doesn't actually reach that light but turn to darkness instead.

Edit: Now I feel like making a villain myself sometime <.<

Hiname · **07-14-2010, 09:36 AM**

Now, my oppinion of the whole thing..

You can be a villain by self-declaration or because the world itself labels you as such.

Somewhere between light and darkness are the regions that color a good from a bad villain. There are the kind of villains that rob banks and ships, the kind that wants to take over the world, the ones that simply dislike being a "Good person", and the kind that is the mostd angerous of them all. The kind of villain that works for himself and wears the mask of a hero.

For those fans out there of fantasy-anime, let me pick up three kind of villains.
(Mostly because I just watched it yesterday. *snicker*)

The destructive villain
The one most easily spottet, as they dont make a big secret out of the fact they are up to no good. Planning to wear a black armor with lots and spikes and skulls might fit the job, but in a MMO like this, you will most likely end up gathering a lot of /rolleyes.

The dark hero villain
A more dangerous yets till kinda easy to mke out kind of bad guy. Ingame, they would be the kind that travels with your group, accepts quests and is fighting stuff. The villainy picks up when watching how he does his things. Mercyless and with little care, slaughtering innocents and villains alike to get the quest done, without any kind of remorse.

The "true" villain
Untouchable. Mighty. Subtle. Unforgiving.
The kind of villain that never or rarely acts in the open, gets his things done and makes others due the dirty work while mostly themselfes being an honorable person of its enviroment. When lastly put into the spotlight, still finding a way to sneak away unharmed and picking up their work from some other place and the whole thing starts over.

To play a good villain is to make sure you avoid the big clichÃƒÂ© of what a villain is "supposed" to do.. a villain is what the world turns you too, not what you do to get what you want.

DAISHI · **07-14-2010, 10:25 AM**

For those of you who have never read, here's a primer on villains that is humorous but accurate:

The Complete Monster:
<a class="postlink" href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eteMonster</a>
(Maestro is this. Has no conscious and will do anything without impact to his psychology.)

Obviously Evil:
<a class="postlink" href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObviouslyEvil">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... iouslyEvil</a>

Card Carrying Villain:
<a class="postlink" href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CardCarryingVillain">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ingVillain</a>

The Big Bad:
<a class="postlink" href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad</a>
(Maestro)

The Dragon:
<a class="postlink" href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon">http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon</a>
(The Leader)

Tyriont · **07-14-2010, 10:33 AM**

Some of the most entertaining memories I have from FFXI Roleplaying were interactions when I was playing my villain alt, Denavial. He was the type who very rarely got his hands dirty, preferring to manipulate things from behind the scenes. There was a relatively extensive backstory explaining his ties to my main character (Tyriont) but his primary motivation was knowledge. I played him as a necromancer, having gotten his start as one of the pirates summoning undead when attacking the ferry. From there things expanded and he eventually headed to the Aht Urghan, intending to figure out how to make chimera. Denavial lacked a good side per se - but he had clear motivations. He was just an amoral bastard about it and had such an overinflated ego that he genuinely considered everyone else beneath his intellect and therefore unworthy of consideration.

His ongoing "pet project" was Tyriont and he had conducted experiments on him while Ty was captured at one point and so went out of his way to screw with Ty and those close to him. A few things I remember that were particularly fun to play from the villainous side was infiltrating the San d'Orian church (done using another alt, Marneus Lanviade - Denavial in disguise, yay for in-game concealing hoods!) and getting close to another player's priestess character who was a friend of Ty's in order to bring her down - something he came very close to succeeding in. He also played a part in pushing the shell's most happy-go-lucky character over the edge by using parts of said character's deceased wife in an undead construct. A third would be manipulating another player's character into allowing him to start teaching her necromantic magics, with the knowledge that it would cause her friends to start turning on her once they found out given the stipulations against it - and who had been teaching her. Again, not evil for the sake of being evil but commiting evil acts in order to further his research with no interest in how it affected the lives of others.

Never once did I have him run around going "LULZ I R EVIL", he was very well spoken (his speech pattern was that he would never use contractions) and subtle - the other key point is that I tried to be careful not to overuse him. If there was another major plot ongoing that involved a lot of people in the shell, I didn't try to throw Denavial in just for the hell of it, which seems to be a temptation with poorly played, "cartoonish" villains - those types seem to want the villain to be behind every damn thing.

The other thing to avoid is making a "Villain-Sue". For the successes Denavial had, his plans were utterly thwarted multiple times and he came close to death several times.

One final thing I would suggest - if you plan on making your main character a villain, be very certain you know what you're getting into. Playing a main that way tends to result in the rest of your group turning on you (unless you are in a shell with a large sized villainous population) and can kill a lot of fun in the game when you are unable to find yet another realistic reason why your villain would team up with the heroes for whatever in-game event is going on.

Kashemia · **07-14-2010, 10:40 AM**

I stronly agree with the "Be careful about making it your main" point. While it can be interesting, it might be a problem keeping it up in the long run, and especially to have someone truly care about your character.
And while that might not be something you necessarely want, to me, I always find the interactions between characters the most interesting, and if your character never cares about anything or anyone, it becomes boring in the end (I've tried it Wink

).

A possible solution could be not tp make him an outright villain, possibly a villain for a while, but more of a tortured soul or misguided person, slipping into darkness for a while. It allows for you to make the character come out on the other side, instead of eventually having to take a complete downfall ending with death or prison.

Zhavi · **07-14-2010, 12:34 PM**

Don't forget, also, that sometimes people will do terrible things because they feel there is no other option out there.

Meh, I'm rather loathe to use the term 'villain.' It makes me think of the two in Rocky & Bullwinkle, totally silly and exaggerated. I like there to be reasons behind everything. I mean, hell, you could make a great antagonist by making him a total xenophobe, or a control freak, or an idealist or visionary. In these cases it's not so much about good or bad as how willing he is to step on other people to get what he wants. If he considers himself the gods' greatest gift, then it shouldn't matter if a few people have to die. Even if they're friends or people he respects.

And people don't even have to die directly by his hand. Some pretty nasty social injustices just happen as a byproduct of bureaucracy. Or even just paranoia.

Iunno, bad guys creep me out the most when they do stuff because the feel it has to be done. It's not that they think it's the good or right thing to do, but if they don't do it something even worse will happen, or things will be unbalanced, or maybe he just really believes in anarchy -- however you want to do it.

Or you could take a page out of lovecraft and have him be a cultist for some ancient religion that most people stopped worshiping ages ago. <3 cultists. >>

Aveline · **07-14-2010, 12:50 PM**

Dexter spoiler alert for people that haven't watched it much

Show Content

My biggest concern with playing a main character for a villain (or even a high-level alt), is how to get others in your group to actually trust you. FFXI and FFXIV both have elements of a need to group with people. That's why linkshells and Companies exist in the first place, right? When I RP my main character, she has to feel bonded in some way to the people in her shell. They aren't just warm bodies to throw at monsters, they're her friends, sometimes family, and people she cares about and would trust with her life in a fight. How do main character bad guys go about establishing that kind of a rapport amongst their shellmates to the point where it's realistic?

The example situations in my mind are all from Asura, but it felt like most of the bad guys RPed were of the "Don't come near me, I have a dark and tortured past and I cannot be held responsible for my own actions. At any minute I may slit your throat, you spineless and innocent DOG." Call me crazy, but I can't imagine someone saying "Oh that's cool, hey wanna go halfway across the world with us on this really important mission?"

I'm curious how groups and players who did bad guys worked through this.

Stanzie · **07-14-2010, 01:06 PM**

One thing about the label of "good" vs "evil" is that both terms are relative. Either to ones viewpoint, or the situation, or society, whatever it may be. So with that in mind what makes a villain a villain? What of the mentality the ends justify the means? Those that believe that tenement can be seen as either good or evil depending on how one views the methods of achieving the outcome.

Kashemia · **07-14-2010, 01:18 PM**

Aveline Wrote:Dexter spoiler alert for people that haven't watched it much

Show Content

SpoilerI think Dexter's brother was a better example of a villain who could blend in really well with society. The only reason he was ever caught was because he was under the impression that Dexter would side with him in the end, but before that no one knew who he was or what he wanted, to the point where he actually fooled Dexter's sister into thinking he wanted to marry her.

More Dexter spoiler below...

Show Content

Back to the subject.
One thing I think is important to keep in mind, for all roelplay, is that things that might work in tv-shows, movies and books, where the writer is in control of all the characters, is not necessarely going to work in a roleplaysetting where other people play as well. That loner wolf character that keeps people out, but everybody still think he is cool and wanna hang out with him? Sure, it's a cool idea, but in reality, people are probably not going to find it interesting to roleplay with for a very long time.

Same goes for villains I guess...

Zhavi · **07-14-2010, 01:26 PM**

Aveline Wrote:My biggest concern with playing a main character for a villain (or even a high-level alt), is how to get others in your group to actually trust you. FFXI and FFXIV both have elements of a need to group with people. That's why linkshells and Companies exist in the first place, right? When I RP my main character, she has to feel bonded in some way to the people in her shell. They aren't just warm bodies to throw at monsters, they're her friends, sometimes family, and people she cares about and would trust with her life in a fight. How do main character bad guys go about establishing that kind of a rapport amongst their shellmates to the point where it's realistic?

The example situations in my mind are all from Asura, but it felt like most of the bad guys RPed were of the "Don't come near me, I have a dark and tortured past and I cannot be held responsible for my own actions. At any minute I may slit your throat, you spineless and innocent DOG." Call me crazy, but I can't imagine someone saying "Oh that's cool, hey wanna go halfway across the world with us on this really important mission?"

I'm curious how groups and players who did bad guys worked through this.

I've never rped with anyone who took a character to the point that they were oozing the 'I'm going to go crazy and kill you soon' feeling but I think if they did do that they'd have to do any sort of group things oocly, or with a group of equally crazy underlings.

Zietes · **07-14-2010, 02:15 PM**

First of all I want to say that all your feedback has been quite amazing. There are alot of great tips and tricks on this thread, as well as some do's and don'ts. I'm currently working on making a prologue to Zietes in order to get a feel for the character and from there derive his intentions, how I will play him, etc. etc.

My plans are to of course make him a subtle villain, and maybe not even completely evil. Alot of what people have said has stirred many new ideas in my head. However last thing I must ask is....

What do you guy's think about giving him a disguise. This means that I can still roleplay Villainous situations with other RPers yet still keep my identity secret. Of course, OOC people could tell it was my character because my name would be over my head, but IC wise they would have no idea. I'd have to be very careful as to finding a reason why Zietes was not there, maybe trick them into thinking he was. Also Kashemia has already said that people might meta game by mistake and think they know it's my character when they see him, but I explained that it wouldn't be a hard fix, just take a whisper or two explaining that they can't really tell who I am.

Zane · **07-14-2010, 02:18 PM**

Let me use the main "villain" of my story and current Table-top game as an example. Apparently, he's become so famous as a character within our table top games, his reputation has spread to other games that I'm not even a part of as an awesome character/villain. Many people vehemently portray him as the main NPC hero of the story, and this is OOCly. The only thing I don't like about him... is his name.

"X" is a man who used proxies to insight a rebellion, crushed the rebellion he caused to gain fame, poisoned his queen, ordered the deaths of his comrades that became suspicious of him, and when all else failed took his country's best officers and usurped a neighboring country waging war against his home country. He did all of this, and everyone sees him as a hero because of his charming, friendly attitude. Rather than see him as a back stabbing ambitious cut-throat, he played the world to make him seem the part of the resistance fighter, fighting for people's freedom against an oppressive government.

After all, if you get in his way, he will kill you by one method or another. But, he knows how important it is to have competent people he can trust. For any one that isn't against him, or better yet, with him in his vision he works well and cooperates to make sure he accomplishes their mutual goals. And he does so in a very friendly open manner. He views killing as wrong - but necessary in certain circumstances. He's very human. His greatest flaw is viewing himself a step above others, but his greatest strength is making others think they're on the same level as him.

While some of you may be wondering just how that could happen, I could explain it all, but it would take up way too much space. Let's just say it took a lot of work and planning and no one ever saw it coming. :p Also, "X" is not his real name. I'm keeping his real name secret in case I decide to role-play a character like him at some point.

Zane · **07-14-2010, 02:21 PM**

Zietes Wrote:What do you guy's think about giving him a disguise. This means that I can still roleplay Villainous situations with other RPers yet still keep my identity secret. Of course, OOC people could tell it was my character because my name would be over my head, but IC wise they would have no idea. I'd have to be very careful as to finding a reason why Zietes was not there, maybe trick them into thinking he was. Also Kashemia has already said that people might meta game by mistake and think they know it's my character when they see him, but I explained that it wouldn't be a hard fix, just take a whisper or two explaining that they can't really tell who I am.

A true villain never dirties his hands unless he absolutely must. Using others, and proxies for your agendas is the best method. This is of course much harder in role-playing, especially with a $3 charge for each extra character, but you could try to convince other players of your noble cause.

The best possible thing you can do is find someone to be completely on board with your idea to become your "Face". The man your character sends to all sensitive business deals who has the power and authority to speak for your character. This "Face" will become synonymous with your evil workings, but so long as your character is not seen, or seen often around them, they have little to suspect.

Aveline · **07-14-2010, 02:26 PM**

Wow Zane that is fantastic! I really want to know more about that character already haha. You guys have given lots of good insight into the nuances of bad-guy playing. How long did that character take you to fully work out?

Personally, I find it SO HARD to play someone who is an archetype of good or archetype of bad. Like in KOTOR.. I am always dead neutral. Same in Fallout.. I had to work really hard to stay good in order to keep Fawkes around as my meatshield companion.

But with such great advice in this thread it might be time to make a more villainous alt..

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