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Myxie Tryxle · **07-20-2013, 05:53 PM**

(07-20-2013, 03:45 PM)Manari Wrote: I just wanted to know where you heard that Keepers are nomadic? If you mean they move about the Black Shroud, I suppose that's possible. But there is no mention in the lore anywhere about the Keepers of the Moon being nomads at all. I've heard that about Lalafell lore, and you could certainly argue that some Seeker tribes could be nomadic, it fits. But all the lore supports the Keepers staying pretty well rooted within the Black Shroud. Unless you mean they don't settle in just one place within the Shroud. I could see that, but I still haven't seen that stated in the lore yet.

If it is in there somewhere, I would be very interested in reading about it.

This is based on information I found on several wikis. I'll link them below.

The top section labeled "Miqo'te" on this page.

The "demeanor" section on this page.

And this page on the official website.

The territorial assertion conflicts a little bit with the notion of nomadicism. To clarify, I feel it is likely that the males are nomadic, moving around between small family groups of females and children. This at least is how I'm interpreting the backstory for my character and her youth.

(07-20-2013, 05:50 PM)DimmerMeerkat Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 05:28 PM)Faiz Wrote: I feel as though I learned a fair bit having read this thread and most of its posts. Â My character however wouldn't be abiding by any of this due to how and who he was raised by. Â I'm that small percentage that maaay be looked down upon for having a male Miqo'te who knows nothing about the clans, his culture, etc. Â ^^;
I think that actually puts you in the majority. I've seen way more city-dwelling Miqo'te males than traditional tribal males, both among Seekers and Keepers.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of this is happening in some sort of off-screen or behind the curtain manner. For example, if you go outside Ul'dah, there's a single farm, whereas outside Limsa, there's quite a few farms and orchards. Is one farm supporting the entire populace of Ul'dah? Probably not. The vast majority of populations for all these races are never seen, because a truly realistic world would be too expansive to be captured in the game. The major cities, however, need that sort of description.

AeonicVortex · **07-20-2013, 08:12 PM**

I wonder where love fits into all of this, and how its view.Â It seems like in Miqo'te culture, love takes a way side.Â As a Seeker, you mate with Nunh's, whether you love them or not.

As a Keeper, the females pick the males that please them most, I believe.Â I suppose this could have a bit more room for love.

In a Seeker society though, what happens when a female falls in love with a Tia?Â It it frowned on or scorned?Â Even worse, what if they have children together?Â Are they banished from the tribe, or allowed to stay?

It seems like in either society, since there are far less males, that lesbian relationships may also be quite common.Â Sure, they use a male to have children, but that may not be whom actually raises them.

Hmm...

Xeon · **07-20-2013, 08:20 PM**

(07-20-2013, 08:12 PM)AeonicVortex Wrote: I wonder where love fits into all of this, and how its view.Â It seems like in Miqo'te culture, love takes a way side.Â As a Seeker, you mate with Nunh's, whether you love them or not.

As a Keeper, the females pick the males that please them most, I believe.Â I suppose this could have a bit more room for love.

In a Seeker society though, what happens when a female falls in love with a Tia?Â It it frowned on or scorned?Â Even worse, what if they have children together?Â Are they banished from the tribe, or allowed to stay?

It seems like in either society, since there are far less males, that lesbian relationships may also be quite common.Â Sure, they use a male to have children, but that may not be whom actually raises them.

Hmm...

I don't got any masters or anything in... anything. But perhaps its a matter of tradition vd outside influence? I mean perhaps the more influential older tribes go by the old ways whilst the younger tribes and newer generations would go about it like what we would look at as the normal, With love and marriage and all that.Â

Think its the same about homosexuality and out of race/clan relations, its frowned upon by the elder tribes whilst its more accepted by the not so old.

While there obviously is influence from the outside, it is still "Possible" that what is said in the first post is still true in some regions.

-Xeon

Desmond Aryll · **07-20-2013, 08:57 PM**

(07-20-2013, 08:12 PM)AeonicVortex Wrote: I wonder where love fits into all of this, and how its view.Â It seems like in Miqo'te culture, love takes a way side.Â As a Seeker, you mate with Nunh's, whether you love them or not.

In a Seeker society though, what happens when a female falls in love with a Tia?Â It it frowned on or scorned?Â Even worse, what if they have children together?Â Are they banished from the tribe, or allowed to stay?

Hmm...

I think that as another contributor wrote (sorry this is a long discussion to track you down ;p) the Tia's living within the tribe could be tolerated by the Nuhn if there were harmless to his power, like a relative.

Maybe love could exist between an innocuous Tia and a female. Of course their love would be openly platonic in a way we, as largely monogamous Humans wouldn't understand and would be separate from breeding. Also more traditional love might provoke Miqo'te couples to leave the tribe, causing all kinds of great RP possibilities.

This whole Miqo'te societal structure thing is fascinating.

Desphiria · **07-20-2013, 09:05 PM**

I have one simple question, why are you putting logic into a video game? That's all I gotta say. It's a game, have fun. We don't need to put logic into everything. It's a fantasy game, why is everyone worrying about this?

If you don't like what's going on in the lore then change it and make up your own rules or play a different race.

allgivenover · **07-20-2013, 09:13 PM**

"Worry" implies anxiety. I'm not anxious about this. Some of us really enjoy speculating on fabricated world settings. This is part of that. Just as with a good book that has a believably well thought out world setting, and yes that includes applying logic in many cases, some of us like to debate the particulars of our entertainment. It's just a preference thing, no one is forcing those who would rather not "worry" about it to come read all of this.

Naunet · **07-20-2013, 09:17 PM**

(07-20-2013, 08:12 PM)AeonicVortex Wrote: I wonder where love fits into all of this, and how its view.Â It seems like in Miqo'te culture, love takes a way side.Â As a Seeker, you mate with Nunh's, whether you love them or not.

Well, female Seekers still pick their mate. There are a couple Nunhs in a tribe, so either they pick one they like and have kids, or they don't have kids. OR they decide they like a Tia best and perhaps they set off to start their own tribe (which we know is an acceptable way for a Tia to become a Nunh).

allgivenover · **07-20-2013, 09:27 PM**

There's no reason to believe that they don't love. It just has different cultural connotations for them, not necessarily tied to exclusive sexual access.

Myxie Tryxle · **07-20-2013, 09:30 PM**

I'll throw out a little math to display why the modern notion of love is impractical (not impossible though). Let's assume that for every male Miqo'te there are three female Miqo'te. If they start pairing up monogamously, you're going to run out of males very quickly. Two out of three females (which accounts for 50% of the total population) will be left without a mate. That's a massive crisis! It's more likely mainstream Miqo'te society views sex as being different from love, similar to how many human cultures practiced arranged marriages. Love would likely fill more of a "best friends" or blood-brothers sort of role, and may not involve sex at all.

Now given that a lot of people will be playing Miqo'te because Miqo'te are cool, but still want to engage in a little bit of romantic RP, there will be exceptions. Exceptions that are likely lead to a lot of gossip, intrigue, and conflict, which is fantastic from an RP standpoint. It's also inevitable due to the culture clash between Miqo'te and other races. A few young Miqo'te will no doubt see how Hyur behave and ask "Why can't I find a best friend who is also a suitable lover?"

As for a tia stealth breeding under the nunh's nose, there are a number of possible outcomes. First, he can get away with it, which is something you see happen to some degree in species with a harem mating structure. Particularly clever males can get in a little bit of breeding under the nose of the patriarch. Perhaps the nunh finds out and challenges the tia. There are two possible outcomes. One is that the tia wins the challenge and gains a breeding position. I would expect this to happen rather frequently, as there are bound to be a lot of tia out there vying for breeding rights. The other outcome is the tia loses, at which point we begin wrestling again with the question of does the nunh kill the loser (in this case an insubordinate tia) and the illegitimate offspring? I suppose a third possible outcome is tia and female take a cue from the Hyur and elope, but that would be highly controversial (and some fantastic storyline).

In case I haven't made it clear yet in my follow-up posts, part of the reason I started this discussion is to establish an understanding of Miqo'te culture so people could break away from tradition and build some awesome RP. It sounds like several of you were already planning to have your character struggling with new culture versus traditional tribal values, and that's great!

Myxie Tryxle · **07-20-2013, 09:46 PM**

(07-20-2013, 09:05 PM)Desphiria Wrote: I have one simple question, why are you putting logic into a video game? That's all I gotta say. It's a game, have fun. We don't need to put logic into everything. It's a fantasy game, why is everyone worrying about this?

If you don't like what's going on in the lore then change it and make up your own rules or play a different race.

Personally, I'm doing this because I'd like to be a published writer. The book I'm reading at the moment by Orson Scott Card describes his method for building strong, believable settings as a backdrop for your stories, so this is largely an intellectual exercise to improve my skills as a writer. I would equate it to the artists practicing their drawing in other posts. Writing is a craft, and this is one way to practice the art.

The other reason is I've gotten a large amount of feedback, both on this thread and the thread about inbreeding that spawned this effort, as well as a number of private messages from several users asking me to keep it up or elaborate on certain points. In the current absence of lore, people are hungry for this sort of discussion, and it's fun to speculate. Along the lines of "it's a game, just have fun," this is fun to me. I'm thoroughly enjoying these discussions on the forum and happy to have found a community where I can have an intellectual discussion without it devolving into a flame war or dueling memes.

Lastly, I work as a teacher and it's summer break, so I have a lot of time on my hands.

Naunet · **07-20-2013, 10:03 PM**

(07-20-2013, 09:30 PM)Callipygian Wrote: I'll throw out a little math to display why the modern notion of love is impractical (not impossible though). Â Let's assume that for every male Miqo'te there are three female Miqo'te. Â If they start pairing up monogamously, you're going to run out of males very quickly.

Ah, you're showing a bias here. Love is not exclusive to monogamy.

Quote:Callipygian
The other outcome is the tia loses, at which point we begin wrestling again with the question of does the nunh kill the loser (in this case an insubordinate tia) and the illegitimate offspring? Â I suppose a third possible outcome is tia and female take a cue from the Hyur and elope, but that would be highly controversial (and some fantastic storyline).

I mentioned this earlier, but one of the legitimate ways for a Tia to become a Nunh is to take a female or two and go start his own tribe.

I highly doubt a Nunh would outright kill a Tia who tried to mate "under his nose", much less kill any children sired by that Tia. Back to the whole miqo'te are a sentiant, cultured, abstract-thought-and-morality-capable species.

AeonicVortex · **07-20-2013, 10:56 PM**

I didn't post my thoughts here because I'm necessarily worried about it. I posted it because sometimes I really like to know what makes people tick, and the reason they, or even a society acts the way they do.Â I'm not interested in every little detail, or what not, but something like this is strange enough to catch my interest.

Its fun!

ArmachiA · **07-20-2013, 11:07 PM**

(07-20-2013, 10:03 PM)Naunet Wrote: Ah, you're showing a bias here. Love is not exclusive to monogamy.

Truth, I have many friends in my Burlesque circle who are married and poly-amorous. Smile

As for the subject... I have to admit it reminds me a bit of the thread in the Mass Effect forums where a dude broke down what he thought Tali, a character in the game, sweat tasted like

http://biowarefans.blogspot.com/2011/08/...sweat.html

This is heading in that direction.

Myxie Tryxle · **07-20-2013, 11:47 PM**

Quote:
(07-20-2013, 10:03 PM)Naunet Wrote: Callipygian
The other outcome is the tia loses, at which point we begin wrestling again with the question of does the nunh kill the loser (in this case an insubordinate tia) and the illegitimate offspring? Â I suppose a third possible outcome is tia and female take a cue from the Hyur and elope, but that would be highly controversial (and some fantastic storyline).

I mentioned this earlier, but one of the legitimate ways for a Tia to become a Nunh is to take a female or two and go start his own tribe.

I highly doubt a Nunh would outright kill a Tia who tried to mate "under his nose", much less kill any children sired by that Tia. Back to the whole miqo'te are a sentiant, cultured, abstract-thought-and-morality-capable species.

The way the scenario with the tia and the female was described, I read it as them being outcast or running off to avoid conflict with the nunh. It's unlikely any other females would follow as he would likely be viewed as a coward and also unlikely any other Seekers would consider an outcast pair a new tribe.

It also expresses a bias to assume that modern Western morality should be the expected norm for Miqo'te. Given that they've segregated their males into two groups (a few worth breeding, most not worth breeding) indicates that their values for life and individual rights are not the same as our own.

As for the killings based on vying for a breeding position, this happens all the time in nature. Many animals fight to the death over mating.

There are human precedents as well. I'll pose two scenarios.

Consider a member of a fictitious "Ox tribe" that practices a ritual similar to the ancient Nordic practice of Holmgang. The challenger poses a challenge and the challenged chooses the terms. It's likely the nunh would choose a fight to the death for several reasons. First, a death on the ox hide is not murder but at worst a destruction of property resulting in an exchange of weregild. Second, if all tia are expecting a fight to the death in order to become a nunh, they're not going to issue a challenge lightly or commit offenses that could be interpreted as a challenge. Third, many of the nunh may prefer death rather than a loss of station and ceding breeding rights.

Now consider a tribe with a moral code similar to that of Bushido in Japan. In that particular culture, the worst disgrace a nunh could bestow upon a defeated tia might be leaving him alive. In essense you would be saying "you're such a disgrace you're not even worth the effort to kill." This particular sentiment was even echoed in pistol dueling throughout Europe and the United States late into the 1800s. To deliberately misfire your shot was a grave insult and a sign of cowardice.

I would argue that the ancient Vikings, feudal Japanese, and colonial Europeans/Americans were "sentiant, cultured, abstract-thought-and-morality-capable" people. Their morality simply differed from our own.

My point here is that if someone wanted to play their Seeker tribe as resembling ancient Viking or bushido morality, that would be pretty cool. I wholeheartedly agree that only the most barbaric, isolated sort of tribe would kill defenseless children, but the option should exist for someone willing to play such a dark character, because some people enjoy pushing the envelope to those sorts of extremes. I had a friend in my previous tabletop group who consistently played characters whose sole motivation seemed to be "what's the next terrible thing I can do that I can get away with?" Oftentimes this led to some very tense and very rewarding roleplay.

Kyatai · **07-21-2013, 12:55 AM**

A very fascinating and well-thought out discussion. Great job and thanks Calli! Smile

I come from an anthropological/medical collegiate background, and though my initial thought after reading your post (besides the above), was "well then we also need a good cultural/psychological discussion to supplement"...
I find that the subsequent postings have done a great job in discussing those.

No, one cannot look at a species (and yes- there is a difference between species and race, though people in fantasy tend to use them interchangeably. Or ignore them to allow for the ability to have 'half' this and thats. Admittedly, I struggle with this because... well... Miqo'te are NOT Hyur who are NOT Roe.. nor Lala... etc. BUT... with the developers not definitely stating 'half'-lings are impossible, I must resign myself to using race over species. Regardless of my 'real life' instincts.
Tl;dr... moving on.) or "race" of humanoid as a purely biological specimen. One simply MUST integrate the environmental & cultural aspects, traditions, religion, morals and mores and so on into the equation. For it is THAT that shapes 'who' and 'what' we are....
At least in my opinion. But this is the simple 'nature vs nurture' argument that still persists today. Even among anthropologists. Tongue

(esp between evolutionary and cultural anthropologists!) But I digress.

Basically- my comments would only reiterate previous posters regarding the various tribal and typical matriarchal vs patriarchal familial structures... so I won't go into my own dissertation of it. Tongue

Though I admit, I find using strict human structures like this to not -quite- fit the Miqo'te idea of things.
Similar, but not quite the same.
I think the developers basic ideas in creating all the clans/types of 'races' was a rather simplistic "make them opposite." And left it at that.

Seekers... sun... male/father focused... strength.
Keepers... moon... female focused... spiritual/mental.
Highlanders... strength
Midlanders... intellect
Dunesfolk.... gil/merchant
Plainsfolk.... agriculture
Wildwood... urban/forest focused
Duskwright... reculsive, cave dwellers
Hellsguard... volcanoes
Seawolf... ocean

With such basic parameters, and limited lore to expand on the above, it leaves us, the RPers and lore hounds, culture fanatics, biologists and just... creative folks to expand on them and make our characters our own.
Which, to me, is both cool (I love to have wiggle room to develop interesting characters and engage other interesting characters) and annoying (I need SOME parameters so that I don't risk diverting from the realm of lore logic/possibility enough that all members of a certain RP'd "race" are similar enough to be recognizable and relatable.)

Honestly... I find such discussions as Calli has set forth to be enlightening and interesting. Not necessarily as an instruction manual to RPing a 'true' tribal Miqo (because it would not be... if you were to use her discussion as such at the absence of culture, you would be RPing more of a true PRIMAL Miqo'te... and one that would likely not function well in 'modern' society. Might they exist? Sure... as she said, the spectrum of possibility is there to use and abuse as we, the RPers, see fit. The more diversity, the more interesting the RP could be.), but as a basis of maybe understanding how things BEGAN... the roots of the division, the culture, etc.
People will make cultural adaptations to justify biological rules. And vice versa.
And we have not even discussed the psychological adaptations that might be made to justify biological drives or cultural decisions...

Lastly, discussions like this aren't a result of 'worry' or anything else- but merely a desire to dive deep into what could drive a character, a race, a clan, a species or whatever... in order to create a more in-depth, complex and intellectually stimulating character and IC interaction. It helps a character evolve from 2-D to 3-D. From flat and boring to dynamic and interesting.

My 2 gil.
Sorry for the rambling...Â haha

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Miqoâ€™te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologistâ€™s point of view

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