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Salty Lake · **09-24-2013, 07:45 PM**

Here are two screencaps I took today that support my hypothesis that there are high-mortality rates for commoners (very light spoilers):

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-24-2013, 07:54 PM**

(09-24-2013, 09:50 AM)Uther Wrote: I read the OP and nothing else because I'm tired. So forgive me if I'm just repeating something already said.

I'll start by stating that the majority of Misericorde is between 29 and 40. Our youngest is 20-22ish, while our oldest is 48, I believe. We're not exactly geezers, but we're not the Hardy Boys either.

Uther is 31, and he's been going to war (not getting into fights, I mean big kid war.) since he was 15, so he has that "battlefield wisdom" that makes him seem older than he actually is. His mental age is probably around 35-40.Â

I think there need to be more older characters. In my opinion, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of teenagers fighting primals out there. It stands to reason that the truly effective adventurers would be the ones with military and survival experience. People who know how to killÂ and how to do business, not idealistic Jpop warriors. Players will always play what they want, and they have every right to do so. I don't avoid RP with young characters or anything, I just think the seasoned warrior archetype is underplayed in this game. Where are my Saurfangs, Gandalfs, Obi-Wan Kenobis, and Ra's al Ghuls? Old fighters, whether they be good, evil, melee, or magical, are awesome.

Wouldn't Eorzea have lost a healthy chunk of their older, more seasoned fighters during the battle at Carteneau? I mean, any situation like that seems to leave the age gap of fighters-- you have the even older ones who still have something to teach and might have to take up their weapons again and you have the ones who were too young or too rebellious to get involved. What were all our seasoned 30-40 fighters -doing- that prevented them from wanting or trying to get involved in protecting everyone from the Garlean Empire? Or was everyone that age affected by the 5 year jump?

Saurfangs and Gandalfs and so on were special cases to begin with-- People beyond a certain age, trailing on upwards towards their fifty-equivalents are probably focusing more on spreading their wisdom around now rather than risking losing it before they have a chance to pass it on. There'll be exceptions but in any game or story or even in history, people like Saurfang, at least, are excessively rare... And let's face it, people like Gandalf are pretty rare too. Louisoix is pretty much on par and then there are the Padjal who we can assume are quite old -but don't show it- but otherwise how many old warriors have we seen so far? Papashan? They seem vastly outnumbered in the story itself and I think there's a decent reason behind it.

Lament · **09-24-2013, 09:14 PM**

(09-24-2013, 07:54 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Wouldn't Eorzea have lost a healthy chunk of their older, more seasoned fighters during the battle at Carteneau? I mean, any situation like that seems to leave the age gap of fighters-- you have the even older ones who still have something to teach and might have to take up their weapons again and you have the ones who were too young or too rebellious to get involved. What were all our seasoned 30-40 fighters -doing- that prevented them from wanting or trying to get involved in protecting everyone from the Garlean Empire? Or was everyone that age affected by the 5 year jump?

I agree, a big chunk of Eorzea's soldier population - veteran or no - would've died 5 years ago. Young soldiers would also have died, so it's likely the majority of fighters currently active weren't soldiers 5 years ago. It is reasonable to have so many green fighters around, if war claimed that many lives recently.

But I also think it's reasonable to assume that most older, seasoned warriors would be in positions of leadership, and while soldiers are disposable, leaders generally aren't. Of course, some leaders will take a Raubahn-like approach to it (Raubahn would have joined the fighting if he had been allowed to; the Echo shows that pretty clearly), but some would be away from the front lines, commanding. They could have survived. Likewise, some veterans would have survived along with some young soldiers. We know it's possible for people to have survived the battle, given Merlwyb&company are still alive.

As for why they wouldn't be there - any number of reasons, I think. Some people just aren't the war type. Some may have tried to get there, but Bahamut showed up before they could. Some could have been taken prisoner. Some could have the "let them handle it, we'll die anyway" mentality. There didn't seem to be any Ishgardian leadership at the battle, so anyone from Ishgard has an excuse by default.

So there are ways to explain seasoned veterans, if you want to make one! I just think people tend to gravitate toward characters that are closer to themselves in age.

I do agree that people like Gandalf, Louisoix and the Padjal would be a little too rare regardless. Mortality rates and retirement would place most soldiers aged 40+ out of the battlefield. 40 isn't old, but chances are you'll be dead, traumatized, or just tired of war and fighting by then.

That said, I have exactly one teenager (and I have all 8 alt slots filled, because I'm a loser). I am too old and cranky to think teens are cool. ):

Naunet · **09-24-2013, 09:29 PM**

(09-24-2013, 07:45 PM)Salty Lake Wrote: Here are two screencaps I took today that support my hypothesis that there are high-mortality rates for commoners (very light spoilers):

Aside from the death during childbirth and the understandable infant mortality rates (considering it doesn't look like Eorzea has things like NICU, and there are a lotÂ of things that can go wrong during pregnancy), honestly I think the greatest danger comes from being a mercenary or part of the military (or being an adventurer!). The thing with the 27 laborers killed by the coeurl seems like a fairly "freak accident", so to speak - you don't get powerful beasts like that every day. Keep in mind also that things might be more dangerous nowÂ than they were prior to the Calamity. We've got all that aether disrupting things and the elementals are peeved and things are just generally going very, very wrong in the world. This makes everything far riskier than it may have been 6 years ago, and it's possible that a lot of the problems we see NPCs running into while questing would not have been nearly as common back then.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-24-2013, 09:34 PM**

(09-24-2013, 09:14 PM)Lament Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 07:54 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Wouldn't Eorzea have lost a healthy chunk of their older, more seasoned fighters during the battle at Carteneau? I mean, any situation like that seems to leave the age gap of fighters-- you have the even older ones who still have something to teach and might have to take up their weapons again and you have the ones who were too young or too rebellious to get involved. What were all our seasoned 30-40 fighters -doing- that prevented them from wanting or trying to get involved in protecting everyone from the Garlean Empire? Or was everyone that age affected by the 5 year jump?

I agree, a big chunk of Eorzea's soldier population - veteran or no - would've died 5 years ago. Young soldiers would also have died, so it's likely the majority of fighters currently active weren't soldiers 5 years ago. It is reasonable to have so many green fighters around, if war claimed that many lives recently.

But I also think it's reasonable to assume that most older, seasoned warriors would be in positions of leadership, and while soldiers are disposable, leaders generally aren't. Of course, some leaders will take a Raubahn-like approach to it (Raubahn would have joined the fighting if he had been allowed to; the Echo shows that pretty clearly), but some would be away from the front lines, commanding. They could have survived. Likewise, some veterans would have survived along with some young soldiers. We know it's possible for people to have survived the battle, given Merlwyb&company are still alive.

As for why they wouldn't be there - any number of reasons, I think. Some people just aren't the war type. Some may have tried to get there, but Bahamut showed up before they could. Some could have been taken prisoner. Some could have the "let them handle it, we'll die anyway" mentality. There didn't seem to be any Ishgardian leadership at the battle, so anyone from Ishgard has an excuse by default.

So there are ways to explain seasoned veterans, if you want to make one! I just think people tend to gravitate toward characters that are closer to themselves in age.

I do agree that people like Gandalf, Louisoix and the Padjal would be a little too rare regardless. Mortality rates and retirement would place most soldiers aged 40+ out of the battlefield. 40 isn't old, but chances are you'll be dead, traumatized, or just tired of war and fighting by then.

That said, I have exactly one teenager (and I have all 8 alt slots filled, because I'm a loser). I am too old and cranky to think teens are cool. ):

I think you've made pretty good points there. I mean, a life of war isn't easy. Those old seasoned veterans probably won't be seeing war into their fifties and sixties because this is melee and magic, predominantly, not fire arms. Either way, if you're actually on the field, you have to be in fit physical shape and age tends to wear away at things. Muscle mass decreases. Your body's ability to heal wears down. Your senses tend to dull over time, especially if you're used to taking concussive blows or your primary skill was far-range archery. You have the mind for it, the reasoning, the understanding of facing an opponent with the mentality of a chess-player-- strategy is a key factor in winning a fight but throughout our history as well as in many lore-situations with different games there are rather few individuals who were great old strategists who took to the battlefield themselves. Heck, even young, brilliant minds for tactics rarely took to the field themselves.

Put that senior citizen into the fight and problems begin to arise. Now, if we're talking about seniors in general who are just wise individuals, that's a whole different can of worms there. Basically, one of the down points of it for a player is that playing an older individual sort of denotes that they are set in their ways. It's not really character development for the player anymore so much as helping others develop -their- characters. Romance, which isn't all that important, is probably no longer a viable option or interest. Conflict, being evil, rivalries all seem like they would be beneath a wiser, older individual. Your history is longer than others, and there's just less room for you to change your mind on certain things. It can -easily- but not always, fall back onto that 'Q&A' style of roleplaying where all you're doing is saying 'How would my grumpy old Lalafell respond to this impetuous adolescent'? I could really understand why many people don't want to take that route.

Maybe we shouldn't all be teenagers (Siobhain just hit 28 so she's nearing the 30 year old mark) but I wouldn't go so far as to berate anyone for -not- playing an older individual.

Naunet · **09-24-2013, 09:57 PM**

(09-24-2013, 09:34 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Basically, one of the down points of it for a player is that playing an older individual sort of denotes that they are set in their ways. It's not really character development for the player anymore so much as helping others develop -their- characters. Romance, which isn't all that important, is probably no longer a viable option or interest. Conflict, being evil, rivalries all seem like they would be beneath a wiser, older individual.

I would be careful here, because old(er) certainly does not necessitate grumpy, or even wise.

Ildur · **09-24-2013, 11:39 PM**

Older people certainly can have conflicts, rivalries and character development. Just take a look at 'old' people of the real world. It all depends on how the player plays it.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-24-2013, 11:53 PM**

(09-24-2013, 09:57 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 09:34 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Basically, one of the down points of it for a player is that playing an older individual sort of denotes that they are set in their ways. It's not really character development for the player anymore so much as helping others develop -their- characters. Romance, which isn't all that important, is probably no longer a viable option or interest. Conflict, being evil, rivalries all seem like they would be beneath a wiser, older individual.

I would be careful here, because old(er) certainly does not necessitate grumpy, or even wise.

That's true.

And age really doesn't equate to much except that with age, there are usually some inescapable physical changes. Slower or faster for some than others. So you two are right, I concede that point, but I still stand by my statement that older people usually have a highly developed personality, view, and history compared to their younger counterparts. It's not only how a player chooses to portray their character but also how other characters view that character. If you're going the route of Gandalf or Saurfang, your mentality is fairly set from everything you've seen and your knowledge, compared to the younger characters, is usually considerably more advanced for a reason.

Those two also happen to be unique in their worlds, as I'm sure more 'senior' Eorzean characters would have to be if they're still running around swinging battle axes and getting involved in the drama and rivalries of younger folk, no? If young 'teenage' adventurers who are highly skilled have an issue with perhaps seeming a little too prevalent then wouldn't advanced-aged characters who know a lot and can still manage extraordinary feats of strength, courage, and/or magic also sour somewhat if there are too many of them?

Uther · **09-25-2013, 12:49 AM**

(09-24-2013, 07:54 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Wouldn't Eorzea have lost a healthy chunk of their older, more seasoned fighters during the battle at Carteneau? I mean, any situation like that seems to leave the age gap of fighters-- you have the even older ones who still have something to teach and might have to take up their weapons again and you have the ones who were too young or too rebellious to get involved. What were all our seasoned 30-40 fighters -doing- that prevented them from wanting or trying to get involved in protecting everyone from the Garlean Empire? Or was everyone that age affected by the 5 year jump?

Fair point. But not everyone was at Carteneau. Sure, it was a big battle, but what kind of army sends every available soldierÂ into a single battle? What about standing armies, reserve units, guards, patrolmen, people who weren't deployed to that location, etc.? I would estimate only about 15% of the Grand Companies force was at Carteneau. If it's revealed to be any more than that, then all three of the major Eorzean governments are stupid as all hell. Plus adventurers come and go as they please. Some saw that there was zero, and I mean zero, chance of victory and decided not to go. If I was in an army of swordsmen and archers, I would probably skip the battle against the guns-and-airships guys, too. It doesn't make you a coward, it just means you're not suicidal. Hell, if Bahamut never showed up, the Empire would be running Eorzea today. A lot of people choose to play it that route. I wouldn't say, by any means, that the seasoned warrior population was eradicated from one battle. I could present the counter-argument that after Dalamud the world was pretty chaotic and you probably had to have some experience to survive, so the younger adventurer population could've just as easily died off. It's all about perspective.

Naunet · **09-25-2013, 01:11 AM**

(09-24-2013, 11:53 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Those two also happen to be unique in their worlds, as I'm sure more 'senior' Eorzean characters would have to be if they're still running around swinging battle axes and getting involved in the drama and rivalries of younger folk, no? If young 'teenage' adventurers who are highly skilled have an issue with perhaps seeming a little too prevalent then wouldn't advanced-aged characters who know a lot and can still manage extraordinary feats of strength, courage, and/or magic also sour somewhat if there are too many of them?

Well, I'm looking at this from the perspective of older characters in general - not just older characters who are also roleplayed as adventurers. My own character is not a fighter at all, though she certainly didn't have an easyÂ life with her tribe in the desert.

K'dath · **09-25-2013, 01:42 AM**

There's a lot of interesting discussion going on here.

Though for my own two cents, I believe the vast majority of people play younger characters because of the associations with adventure and wanderlust falling on the shoulders of youth. How many Final Fantasy protagonists are older than early twenties? And how many of those that are play a prominent role in the action? A few come to mind, and they're all great examples of how to play the part, but most people would rather be Cloud or Balthier than Barett or Auron. And even then, these character are barely scraping mid-thirties.

I opted to play a younger character out of convenience more than disdain for the elderly. I am new to the scene, new to the lore, and all in all going into a new experience. It seems beneficial to myself to have 'ignorant youth' as an IC excuse for OC behavior that might be nonsensical or uncouth. Which is to say, a parting difference from my usual older, seasoned veteran characters, which I personally find more interesting in the long run (it tends to be more about the story and less 'who's on who's jock').

The problem is selling the angle that older characters are not just brooding grandpas who remember what it was once like to hold a sword... not that there's anything wrong with playing that character either. A sweeping majority of your player base simply can't make the connection that age isn't a bad thing. And that's why this will always be an unfavorable character-type, regardless of whether or not it is favorable in lore.

Or at least, that's my opinion. I'd personally welcome a main character that isn't Gackt.

Uther · **09-25-2013, 01:57 AM**

(09-25-2013, 01:42 AM)X Wrote: There's a lot of interesting discussion going on here.

Though for my own two cents, I believe the vast majority of people play younger characters because of the associations with adventure and wanderlust falling on the shoulders of youth. How many Final Fantasy protagonists are older than early twenties? And how many of those that are play a prominent role in the action? A few come to mind, and they're all great examples of how to play the part, but most people would rather be Cloud or Balthier than Barett or Auron. And even then, these character are barely scraping mid-thirties.

I opted to play a younger character out of convenience more than disdain for the elderly. I am new to the scene, new to the lore, and all in all going into a new experience. It seems beneficial to myself to have 'ignorant youth' as an IC excuse for OC behavior that might be nonsensical or uncouth. Which is to say, a parting difference from my usual older, seasoned veteran characters, which I personally find more interesting in the long run (it tends to be more about the story and less 'who's on who's jock').

The problem is selling the angle that older characters are not just brooding grandpas who remember what it was once like to hold a sword... not that there's anything wrong with playing that character either. A sweeping majority of your player base simply can't make the connection that age isn't a bad thing. And that's why this will always be an unfavorable character-type, regardless of whether or not it is favorable in lore.

Or at least, that's my opinion. I'd personally welcome a main character that isn't Gackt.

I can see this side of it, but I do wish more people opted to play the older characters. I'm not saying there should be a ton of AARP members running around fighting monsters, and no one should be young. I just think it's a very cool character type that isn't used as much. Not everyone should be 50+, but I think we need to throw in more 30s-40s characters. Maybe it's a Western thing. I don't have much interest in manga or anime, so correct me if I'm wrong but they all seem to be much younger than characters like say Batman or Aragorn or most Western fiction heroes. I'm always a fan of the seasoned badasses. And for the record, I would definitely rather play Auron than Cloud. I suppose it's all preference in the end though.

K'dath · **09-25-2013, 02:46 AM**

(09-25-2013, 01:57 AM)Uther Wrote:
(09-25-2013, 01:42 AM)X Wrote: There's a lot of interesting discussion going on here.

Though for my own two cents, I believe the vast majority of people play younger characters because of the associations with adventure and wanderlust falling on the shoulders of youth. How many Final Fantasy protagonists are older than early twenties? And how many of those that are play a prominent role in the action? A few come to mind, and they're all great examples of how to play the part, but most people would rather be Cloud or Balthier than Barett or Auron. And even then, these character are barely scraping mid-thirties.

I opted to play a younger character out of convenience more than disdain for the elderly. I am new to the scene, new to the lore, and all in all going into a new experience. It seems beneficial to myself to have 'ignorant youth' as an IC excuse for OC behavior that might be nonsensical or uncouth. Which is to say, a parting difference from my usual older, seasoned veteran characters, which I personally find more interesting in the long run (it tends to be more about the story and less 'who's on who's jock').

The problem is selling the angle that older characters are not just brooding grandpas who remember what it was once like to hold a sword... not that there's anything wrong with playing that character either. A sweeping majority of your player base simply can't make the connection that age isn't a bad thing. And that's why this will always be an unfavorable character-type, regardless of whether or not it is favorable in lore.

Or at least, that's my opinion. I'd personally welcome a main character that isn't Gackt.

I can see this side of it, but I do wish more people opted to play the older characters. I'm not saying there should be a ton of AARP members running around fighting monsters, and no one should be young. I just think it's a very cool character type that isn't used as much. Not everyone should be 50+, but I think we need to throw in more 30s-40s characters. Maybe it's a Western thing. I don't have much interest in manga or anime, so correct me if I'm wrong but they all seem to be much younger than characters like say Batman or Aragorn or most Western fiction heroes. I'm always a fan of the seasoned badasses. And for the record, I would definitely rather play Auron than Cloud. I suppose it's all preference in the end though.

It is certainly a cultural difference, coming from someone who's long preferred western RPGs to eastern ones. Anime and Manga both glorify youth far more often. The most heroic characters are somewhere in the realm of 14-20 and are always very 'pretty' for lack of a better term.

It might sound very presumtious of me to say so, but I think it more or less goes back to the warrior culture which is still glorified in Japan to this day. As I recall, the creed of the warrior was to always choose death when there was a choice between life and death. They were meant to live very brief, very purposeful lives, which no doubt meant you did not see many old warriors. That's why the image of the sakura petals (cherry blossoms) are so prevalent in samurai lore. They live only briefly, but are the most beautiful flower, and with Bushido it is desireable to live such a way.

That is all me trying to recall the half a dozen reports I wrote in high school on the matter though. I may very well be wrong and simply pulling things out of thin air to justify my thought process.

The western fantasy tradition has widely grown from Tolkien's influence, who had strong elders like Aragorn and Gandalf. Tolkien was also a former combatant himself in The Great War, and a lot of his experiences and disdain for it are reflected in his writing. Warhammer, Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons, and other staples of the WRPG draw heavily from that 'war is hell' tone than resonates more with the battle hardened character.

Lament · **09-25-2013, 03:21 AM**

I think it's pretty interesting how it contrasts.

In Japan, the tendency is to have teenager protagonists even in works aimed at adults (such as Akira, or for a more recent example, Gareki). The themes become more mature, but the characters are still young. You'll be hard pressed to find a full cast of adults in anything that is aimed at kids, and it's pretty difficult to find even in works made for adults. A notable exception I can think of is Rurouni Kenshin, which was shounen (and thus aimed at teenage boys), but had an older protagonist. Granted, Kenshin is only in his late 20s - and he still feels hella old for an audience of teens. Like, grandpa status, almost.

In the US at least, the tendency used to be to have adult protagonists even in works aimed at children (most superheroes are adults, Barbie is an adult woman, etc). Recently, perhaps influenced by the popularity of anime, there's been a new trend of teenager or kid protagonists in superhero type works aimed at kids/teens (e.g. Ben 10, Winx). Not very long ago, you'd have kids as protagonists of cartoons aimed at very young children (e.g. Care Bears) and grown people as protagonists of cartoons aimed at older kids (e.g. He-Man).

So those things tend to bleed into videogames. Since this game was made in Japan, we'll be seeing the Japanese trends - young-looking characters, young-looking key NPCs, and so forth.

Still, it feels to me like on a personal level, most people tend to RP characters who are close to themselves in age. Someone in this topic said you know you're getting older when you start RPing characters younger than yourself, and it's pretty true. Personally, I'm glad I didn't RP older characters when I was a teen - I would have done a terrible job of it, and people actually past their 30s would probably have cringed.

Uther · **09-25-2013, 06:48 AM**

(09-25-2013, 02:46 AM)X Wrote: It is certainly a cultural difference, coming from someone who's long preferred western RPGs to eastern ones. Anime and Manga both glorify youth far more often. The most heroic characters are somewhere in the realm of 14-20 and are always very 'pretty' for lack of a better term.

It might sound very presumtious of me to say so, but I think it more or less goes back to the warrior culture which is still glorified in Japan to this day. As I recall, the creed of the warrior was to always choose death when there was a choice between life and death. They were meant to live very brief, very purposeful lives, which no doubt meant you did not see many old warriors. That's why the image of the sakura petals (cherry blossoms) are so prevalent in samurai lore. They live only briefly, but are the most beautiful flower, and with Bushido it is desireable to live such a way.

That is all me trying to recall the half a dozen reports I wrote in high school on the matter though. I may very well be wrong and simply pulling things out of thin air to justify my thought process.

The western fantasy tradition has widely grown from Tolkien's influence, who had strong elders like Aragorn and Gandalf. Tolkien was also a former combatant himself in The Great War, and a lot of his experiences and disdain for it are reflected in his writing. Warhammer, Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons, and other staples of the WRPG draw heavily from that 'war is hell' tone than resonates more with the battle hardened character.

I'm following. I'm a history buff, personally, and although it's not my forte, I have looked into Japanese history and Samurai culture before. While I'm not an expert on it, I did spend at least a year studying it. I get what you're driving at with the cherry blossoms and Bushido and it makes a lot of sense. Granted, my view of the Samurai in modern fiction is based more off of Kurosawa films than things like Samurai X (one of the few animes I've seen and enjoyed.)

As far as western heroes go, you bring up a solid point with Tolkien's own experiences in World War I (weirdly enough, I've also done some hefty research into his life, so now I'm double-following.) I suppose I'm just more of a Western style player than an Eastern one. My father is an amateur historian and collector of pre-20th century military antiques and I grew up on medieval legends of archetypical white knights and such, and it's still heavily reflected in my RP. I suppose it's a matter of taste and, in some cases, culture in the end.

(09-25-2013, 03:21 AM)Lament Wrote: Still, it feels to me like on a personal level, most people tend to RP characters who are close to themselves in age. Someone in this topic said you know you're getting older when you start RPing characters younger than yourself, and it's pretty true. Personally, I'm glad I didn't RP older characters when I was a teen - I would have done a terrible job of it, and people actually past their 30s would probably have cringed.

I agree with your whole post, but I wanted to highlight this. This is a good point. A lot of people, myself included, use RP as a form of light escapism (for some it's medium to heavy, but that depends on the individual). I used to go as far as to make my characters similar to myself in age, appearance, and interests, so I can definitely relate to this.Â

Lately, I've started making characters that are closer to characters I'd like to see in a single player game or set storylineÂ rather than just making a video game version of myself. Uther is a character that I sort of picture as the supporting guy in the series that's cool enough for a cult following, but isn't important enough to have his own series. That being said, when we talk about age, I tend to make my more recent characters close enough to my age for me to know how to RP them well, but far enough away so that I don't feel like I'm RPing myself anymore. For the record, Uther is in his early thirties, and I'm in my early-mid twenties.

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