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FreelanceWizard · **10-08-2014, 10:54 AM**

(10-08-2014, 08:58 AM)Adventurer Wrote: Mind you, there is also no explanation as to how jellyfish and pugils float in the air outside of water, either. >_>'

Totally off topic here, but there's a FATE in the Sagolii (Fish Out of Water, I think?) where you have to kill some pugils, and the text indicates that the reason they float in the air is because of Aetheric imbalances caused by the Calamity.

Enteris · **10-08-2014, 10:58 AM**

(10-08-2014, 10:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'm hearing the point, I'm just not agreeing with it. Those armed guards are all armed. To bring up my point earlier: It's still going to hurt if a six year old hits you with a hammer, and you're still going to bleed if they cut you with a knife.

Training to fight lalafell is undoubtedly a thing that happens in militaries and forces and whatnot, but again, you're still 1/5 as likely to be fighting them. You'd spend 1/5th of your training against smaller opponents. It doesn't make sense to focus on battling combatants that small when it cuts into time for the rest of the "normal" battlefield.

I still feel that, in a real skirmish, most people are instinctively going to keep their eyes up to look for perceived threats. Lalafells running around below the radar so to speak would be a viable tactic: If your shield is up you can't see through it, and if your arms are in your face to attack or protect, they aren't blocking down low.

It just still strikes me as silly and unreasonable to think that lalafells don't have to adapt their fighting styles to fight anyone and just treat combat like they're a normal-sized individual. I know people freak out when physics come into play, but there have to be SOME ground rules, and given that gravity works and carriages are still drawn by beasts of burden and everything else seems to work just like it does on earth, I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume muscle mass and density work the same, too.

Edit: I'm still talking specifically about unarmed lalafell punches knocking down roes being my hang-up here.

I have to say I agree with you entirely here. I can only suspend my belief so far when it comes to imagining lalafell doing feats of strength.Â

As odd as it may sound, I need a healthy dose of "realism" in my RP to find it enjoyable. Were I to see, in real life, someone the size of a lalafell competing in some Highland games and doing just as well as the other burly men (and women) that are more than double their size... I'd question if something was slipped into my breakfast, if I was dreaming, or if there were some divine intervention going on.

The same holds true for in the game. I just cannot bring myself to believe and accept that a lalafell would be able to do the same physical feats that require brute strength as nearly any of the other (playable) races within the game. Maybe come close to miqo'te, but still no.Â

To bump it up a scale, I would have a hard time accepting that a roe could lift the same amount of mass as Titan (going by sheer size, not primal/aetheric/magical energies).Â

As much as people may dislike it, I feel there is a need to apply real world physics to this game just for the sake of a sense of scale and realism.Â

Lalafell dashing about like little flashes and hitting blindspots? Sure!
Lalafell possessing the same amount of brute, physical strength as the other playable races? No.

Kage · **10-08-2014, 11:03 AM**

We'll be going around in circles until we get anything but as far as I'm aware there is no definitive answer. A keen edge will only take you so far.

What I'm saying is, if you do say that Lalafells can't punch a damn then you have to concede that their weapons prowess and martial prowess is going to be on average higher. So they might not be able to punch the shit out of a highlander the same a highlander can do to the other... but they're almost always going to have to be better when armed?

Taking the Brass Blades for example. They will have to fight the big ass Amalj'aa who are bigger. By your example, they must be much stronger than even the hyur or miqo'te in the brass blades. But many of the Brass Blades still live and come out alive. Perhaps they all just have a mage on their team but... I've never seen a Brass Blade mage that could patch up an Amalj'aa slicing open a guy's chest wound. And the hyurs are equally able to match up with the bigger mass and size of the Amalj'aa too, not just by ducking and weaving but also matching them strike for strike with shields and swords.

Any idiot can hurt someone with a blade yes, but you still need to have the physical strength to match them arm for arm.

I mean, the blind lalafell may have been exceptional in the Company of Heroes but he still had to punch Titan enough to make Titan not be happy.

I take your 1/5 statement very lightly honestly. With the amount of them in the armed forces you will have to train on your weaknesses. If you didn't, your enemies would just surprise you with them and wham. Done. Every single below the belt death? I'd think the commander in charge an utter dumbass for -knowing- that there are lalafell in forces and not doing a damned thing to make sure we got it covered.

Gaspard · **10-08-2014, 11:10 AM**

Well there's nothing 'logical' that can be rendered as Explanation, if that is what you're looking for. I mean, if we go that route, I believe that the Physiology of Lalafell and Roegadyn themselves are questionable, in regards to shape/size/mobility. Everytime I look at Lalafells from a logical perspective they shouldn't even exist, since their whole way of walking, their joints and the likes make no sense 'physics' wise. Though that is debatable in the end, as I'm sure someone could find a theory why Lalafell have no reasonable issues with their bodies. Either way, Lalafells in concept alone don't adhere to 'logic', they're pretty much just meant to be this 'Kawaii Kid' Race every MMO has nowadays.

That being said Final fantasy has a long standing tradition of defying Physics and Logic in exchange for style. See; Anti-Gravity Hair a la Cloud strife or Anti-Gravity fights a la.. every FF battle since FFVII.

Either way, to raise a more constructive point;

Given that Lalafells seem to be the only race that have 'physics defying strength', as in, small yet strong as a hyur or Roe, We could simply go by the assumption that their Physiology is simply different as compared to the rest of the races, their muscles being more efficient (despite the looks), and so on. Perhaps a Pseudo-Evolutionary thing where, because they where small yet had to deal with a 'big world and big people', their muscles eventually adapted to that level.

While it sounds sketchy, fact is that Lalafells 'can' display these levels of strength apparently, and in that regard, simply ignoring it out of own comfort would be.. unfair towards Lalafell players who take it as canon lore.

Warren Castille · **10-08-2014, 11:11 AM**

(10-08-2014, 11:03 AM)Kage Wrote: We'll be going around in circles until we get anything but as far as I'm aware there is no definitive answer. A keen edge will only take you so far.

What I'm saying is, if you do say that Lalafells can't punch a damn then you have to concede that their weapons prowess and martial prowess is going to be on average higher. So they might not be able to punch the shit out of a highlander the same a highlander can do to the other... but they're almost always going to have to be better armed?

Taking the Brass Blades for example. They will have to fight the big ass Amalj'aa who are bigger. By your example, they must be much stronger than even the hyur or miqo'te in the brass blades. But many of the Brass Blades still live and come out alive. Perhaps they all just have a mage on their team but... I've never seen a Brass Blade mage that could patch up an Amalj'aa slicing open a guy's chest wound. And the hyurs are equally able to match up with the bigger mass and size of the Amalj'aa too, not just by ducking and weaving but also matching them strike for strike with shields and swords.

Any idiot can hurt someone with a blade yes, but you still need to have the physical strength to match them arm for arm.

I mean, the blind lalafell may have been exceptional in the Company of Heroes but he still had to punch Titan enough to make Titan not be happy.

I take your 1/5 statement very lightly honestly. With the amount of them in the armed forces you will have to train on your weaknesses. If you didn't, your enemies would just surprise you with them and wham. Done. Every single below the belt death?

I'm still not seeing it like that, but you're right. Until there's "official" word it's just going to be my feelings against the universal yours.

To expand on your point about Brass Blades, though: Do you honestly think Amal'jaa have a legion of lalafell to train with? There also aren't any Amal'jaa sword and board enemies (I think, trying hard to remember but only recall LNC/PUG/BLM/ARC). Brass blades with with sword and shield, so yes, it's reasonable that they ARE out-gearing their enemies so to speak; Blades also wear armor and helmets, something the Amal'jaa fail to do nearly to a one.

The blind lalafell who fought Titan is an exceptional lala, and again an exception to the rule.

I guess part of my issue is this: By waving away the perceived weaknesses of playing a lalafell, it's removing a lot of characterization and creativity. If I played a max-slider brick wall of a roe, no one would take me seriously if I said he was as hard to hit as a lalafell. I'm not sure why the opposite gets to be true, though.

Warren Castille · **10-08-2014, 11:14 AM**

(10-08-2014, 11:10 AM)Gaspard Wrote: While it sounds sketchy, fact is that Derplander 'can' display these levels of strength apparently and send half a dozen men flying with one Whirlwind, and in that regard, simply ignoring it out of own comfort would be.. unfair towards hyur players who take it as canon lore.

You can see the issues with regarding extremely specific circumstances with the norm, I hope.

Kage · **10-08-2014, 11:24 AM**

I could be wrong but I think I remember something about how genetically lalafell aren't that different?

Or so?

But... how do lalafell live so long while it seems (not sure yet) that Hyur don't quite have the same life spans? It's been implied that lalafell live long lives when not eaten but that seems different than the norm.

Edit: My main point with the Brass Blades wasn't that they should be doing much better as there are lalafell in them. But that their gear -must- be overgeared to handle the physical advantage that the Amalj'aa would then have over them. But do you really think the buckler that doesn't even cover their whole arm is going to block a fireball? You need a veritable strength be able to not have your own body arm buckle under strike from the PUG Amalj'aa.

((You're right. My mind went thinking there was one with a blade because I remembered the blade going from left to right and thought it was an Amalj'aa for some reason))

Adventurer · **10-08-2014, 11:26 AM**

An issue is there are examples being labelled as 'exceptions to the rule', but where exactly is the rule? Are we shown otherwise that Lalafell do fall short compared to the other races when it comes to strength?

Edit: Realised that sounded a bit off. INTERNET TONE IS HARD. I mean this as a genuine question. Are there examples where we're shown 'normal' Lalafell are weaker strength-wise than the other races?

(Also yes, that pun was entirely intended. Sue me.)

Berrod Armstrong · **10-08-2014, 11:39 AM**

Alright, let's study a little scenario here.

Berrod and Example Ample the Lalafell face off in Otto's fighting ring. Both are wearing hempen shorts, fighting bareknuckled. Berrod moves to deliver a low lick from his left, lots of power. Example Ample tries to stop it. Does he:

1) Catch Berrod's leg in both hands and somehow remain firmly planted on the floor while absorbing the force of the blow?

2) Catch Berrod's leg in both hands and ends up being yanked off the floor while still holding on to Berrod's leg?

3) Block Berrod's kick with a guard and remain firmly planted on the floor after absorbing the brunt of the blow?

4) Go flying despite the guard?

---------
A few exhanges later, Berrod ends up in an unfortunate position where the Example Ample can take a clear tackle at his waist. Example runs in and launches himself full force at the Highlander. Does he:

1) Crash into Berrod and send him toppling?

2) Crash into Berrod and make him stumble back a bit?

3) Sort of just...hit him like wet cloth on a window and stay there, dangling?

4) End up hurt because he just smashed himself into a larger fellow?

Which of the outcomes do you guys think are more likely, and why?

Edited the second example!

Warren Castille · **10-08-2014, 11:39 AM**

(10-08-2014, 11:26 AM)Adventurer Wrote: An issue is there are lot of examples being labelled as 'exceptions to the rule', but where exactly is the rule? Are we shown otherwise that Lalafell do fall short compared to the other races when it comes to strength?

(Also yes, that pun was entirely intended. Sue me.)

Well, the rule generally is "things that are two feet tall don't throw around things that are 7 feet tall" for my purposes. SE's official lodestone bio calls them out on being both "rotund and diminutive." They also share the unique position of being the only race to not have conflict mentioned specifically in their racial profiles.

Highlanders are mentioned in the same breath as Ala Mhigo and we know how that goes.

Miqo'te reference being territorial and the differences between Keepers and Seekers caused them to split.

Elezen claimed dominion over all of Eorzea before but eventually gave way to the other races (and I'm sure it went peacefully, because lodestone says they developed a heightened sense of honor and pride and "In years past, the Hyur migration into Elezen lands sparked bitter conflict").

Roegadyn, like highlanders, get specifically called out for being massive and muscular. They also get called barbaric and SE specifically states that "Many of the greatest warriors in history were born of Roegadyn stock." Hellsguards are stated as working accordingly as sellswords and bodyguards. If all races are equally strong, why would one race be favored over others in these sorts of tasks?

Finally, lalafell are called out for being rotund and diminutive and agricultural. It says they are friendly to outsiders and other races. The closest thing SE says about them being in combat is mentioning some work in Limsa in their navy.

Warren Castille · **10-08-2014, 11:43 AM**

(10-08-2014, 11:39 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Alright, let's study a little scenario here.

Berrod and Example Ample the Lalafell face off in Otto's fighting ring. Both are wearing hempen shorts, fighting bareknuckled. Berrod moves to deliver a low lick from his left, lots of power. Example Ample tries to stop it. Does he:

1) Catch Berrod's leg in both hands and somehow remain firmly planted on the floor while absorbing the force of the blow?

2) Catch Berrod's leg in both hands and ends up being yanked off the floor while still holding on to Berrod's leg?

3) Block Berrod's kick with a guard and remain firmly planted on the floor after absorbing the brunt of the blow?

4) Go flying despite the guard?

---------
A few exhanges later, Berrod ends up in an unfortunate position where the Example Ample can take a clear, unarmed shot at his jaw. Example fires his fist and it connects! Does it:

1) Hit Berrod so hard that he goes toppling over, gets a broken jaw and is knocked out?

2) Hit Berrod hard enough to damage and daze him, but not enough to knock him down for the count?

3) Provide only a glancing blow that is little more than an annoyance to the larger, sturdier brawler?

4) Hurt Example Ample more than it does Berrod? His face is hard!

Which of the outcomes do you guys think are more likely, and why?

Attack A: Either 2 or 4.

Example B: All four are reasonable. Connecting in the famed "glass jaw" spot is a physical reaction to put someone down. Missing that but landing an unguarded blow to the head can rattle anyone. Hitting a cheekbone or the wrong part of the jaw can easily provide 3+4.

A better one: Example Ample takes a running leap and tries to tackle Berrod around the waist. Anything other than comedy happening is hard to believe.

Kage · **10-08-2014, 11:48 AM**

I would agree with Warren's take on the second example. The jaw is a baaaad place to get hit, just like the nose. Depending on where and how you hit on the nose you can break it, give a bloody nose, stunt growth hitting a certain gland, or send a piece of bodily material into the brain.

Adventurer · **10-08-2014, 11:50 AM**

Hellsguard are also described as having mastered the magical arts in those descriptions. Off the top of my head, the two Roegadyn spellcasters I'm aware of (ACN guildmaster and the male healer throughout the questline) are both Sea Wolves. There's no prominent Hellsguard caster or a lot of them from what we can see.

There is nothing in that description that states Lalafell are weaker than the other races. In fact, their physique is described as: "The short, rotund builds of the Lalafell belie an incredible agility, and their seemingly feeble legs are capable of carrying them long distances over any terrain."

Why couldn't those builds belie strength, as well? There's nothing in those descriptions stating Highlanders or Roegadyn have heightened strength compared to the lesser races. They're just described as muscular as that is their appearance.

We're never shown or toldÂ this idea that Lalafell are weaker than the other races. The only thing we areÂ shown is examples of them matching the other races strength-wise.Â

That's where my issue is. Logically I know a Lalafell shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with a Roegadyn. But I didn't write the game, the world, the races and what they can do. And from the examples that I have been shown, I'm more inclined to believe that they can, whether I agree with it or not.Â Dazed

Kage · **10-08-2014, 11:53 AM**

SE says lalafell are short and stocky. But that only describes the fact that they're not slim and that as we all know they're fucking short.

Just because they're not explicitly stated to be in combat means squat when they place them just as much as they do in Roegadyn and Hyur (and Miqo'te? I think I saw a Miqo'te Brass Blade) all around Thanalan. I mean, sure they're armed. But are you going to put someone with dwarfism out there when you could put another average size joe schmoe?

Berrod Armstrong · **10-08-2014, 11:54 AM**

Edited the second example!

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