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Warren Castille · **04-29-2015, 12:20 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:11 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: snip

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Spoiled for real talk
Did you hear about Rachel Bryk this week? I knew her. We operated in the same spheres, and while I respected the everloving fuck out of her, we often found ourselves on the opposite side of the discussion vis a vis gender politics and expectations.

Do not for a single second tell me that I don't understand. Google her if you don't know what I'm talking about.

What you're discussing is the biggest tripping point that people in common culture hit upon when this topic comes up: Your stance isn't unreasonable, but you're presenting it in a way that screams "You must change things to appease me." By your own admissions there are other games doing what you want better than XIV does - You referenced like two dozen things in the Au Ra thread. But apparently they don't offer you the game you want? And the game you want doesn't offer you the customization you want.

You're expecting cutting-edge social politics from a Japanese developer regarding bucking the socially-imposed gender standards that have been common place in video games since they existed. You're upset that there isn't a safe place for you in a game world that never suggested it would ever be a safe space for you. You sound in your own head like you're asking for equality. To everyone else you're whining about not being treated special. Yes, I realize this is the crux of the argument.

There are places where you can get what you want. I'm sorry XIV seemingly isn't one of them, but the game never pretended to be anything except what it is. I realize this is disappointing for you, but that is unlikely to change in the future, and to be terribly honest? You scare the shit out of me sometimes. I see a lot of Hey in you, and knowing what I do about that now I am legit concerned.

You need to understand that my ire isn't aimed at you. I'm just discussing the topic. I understand the two are inextricably connected. When you say things like

Quote:I see that you don't understand at all. Of course you don't, as your position is fundamentally different from my own.

you don't do yourself any favors. I understand a lot better than you think I do.

This is all stupid and will probably get modded.

LiadansWhisper · **04-29-2015, 12:20 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:18 PM)Zhavi Wrote: Hahahaha.

Okay, for an example, the troll female faces besides the pretty one (pre the graphics update, I don't know what they look like now), could easily qualify for rugged.

Weathered, lined, rough-around-the-edges, a little fierce: you can achieve this with roe to a degree, but with the Au Ra, with the horns and the scales -- I was just hoping for something taller and meaner and maybe a little less of the typical beauty.

(I'm starting to realize from these discussions that what I want to see is a very narrow aesthetic -- but, I dunno, I'd be okay with fifth face options for races that go a little outside of the box for that race, which lets the devs have their target audience while still filling for the niche lovers)

I think an easy middle ground would be to provide options within the race selections to add or discard characteristics like hair, or more chiseled/rugged features. Â I'd love to see them add things like that in addition to hairstyles (which I think someone else suggested, too?).

Harmonixer · **04-29-2015, 12:20 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:18 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:16 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: One of the reasons as to why I stopped playing a Highlander, personally. I figured I might as well go down the 'classically handsome' route instead since it's just as satisfying to me as 'rough and rugged' but it's actually possible to reflect it in-game.

It's truly a crime. Â More hair options would be amazing.

I'm still trying to figure out why we wear sandals everywhere Â tho. Â xD

If this was ment in any seriousness, I think it's something to do with how the models are rigged. They are always in some kind of 'shoe' and unable to be rendered otherwise. The texture would stretch out and look weird over a foot mesh.

It bugs the hell out of me too, but like I said- pretty sure it's the model itself being a problem.

Blue · **04-29-2015, 12:22 PM**

Really, the best way to make happy both those who wanted short females and feminine males (like me) and those who want rough horned women and tall Au Ra men would've been to make two physically different clans, with different emotes and customizations. I'm still annoyed that only Hyurs got that candy. You'd think that in two years they could've designed two clans separated by something more than scale color.

Zhavi · **04-29-2015, 12:23 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:11 PM)Harmonixer Wrote: Ahh, I see now.

Now, that makes me wonder... How the Au Ra age. For males, there's the one face that suggests some age. The placement of the horns and nose, eyes etc. For females, there flat out isn't one.

I think you'd have to do something with the facepaint. But yes, you are flat out lacking the options to depict such a thing for females. In that regard, I understand.

Hmm, now I'm wondering if they age like other races. So much lore stuff that needs to be explained to me. I mean, their demon-like right? Guuaaah. I'm going to be thinking about this all day.

Yeah, there's one that could go for late 20s, but overall displaying age on a female face seems to be a no-no for this game. Then again, it tends to be a no-no in most first-world societies, so I suppose I can't really blame the devs for that.

I was wondering about how they age in general, too (separate from character creation) -- they seem to be very mysterious to me in terms of how they work. Hopefully we'll get some cool lore.

LiadansWhisper · **04-29-2015, 12:24 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:20 PM)Harmonixer Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:18 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:16 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: One of the reasons as to why I stopped playing a Highlander, personally. I figured I might as well go down the 'classically handsome' route instead since it's just as satisfying to me as 'rough and rugged' but it's actually possible to reflect it in-game.

It's truly a crime. Â More hair options would be amazing.

I'm still trying to figure out why we wear sandals everywhere Â tho. Â xD

If this was ment in any seriousness, I think it's something to do with how the models are rigged. They are always in some kind of 'shoe' and unable to be rendered otherwise. The texture would stretch out and look weird over a foot mesh.

It bugs the hell out of me too, but like I said- pretty sure it's the model itself being a problem.

I know there is probably a really good reason for it, but I miss being able to go bare foot. Â I would love to see a pair of shoes in the game that lets you appear to be barefoot, but I don't know if that's possible.

Mercer · **04-29-2015, 12:29 PM**

Criticism of parts of a game doesn't mean you dislike the game. There are always ways for games to improve, and criticism is the examination on what could be improved.

I'd love to see FFXIV have a better character creator. It's the one thing that's missing from a fantastic game. I'd like to see some more options, body sliders, power customization, etc and so on. That doesn't take away from the fact that they push out content more reliably than any other MMO developer with a consistent patch cycle that delivers content on every front, from PvP to endgame to casual play to roleplay.

Do I wish the Au Ra had some more diversity to their height and body choices? Sure, it'd give some more diversity to the roleplayers. At the same time though, I understand the restrictions that Square has with the PS3 and PS4.

Let's just keep it civil and remember that criticism to a fantastic game should not be regarded as a personal attack. It's a game, made by a developer for profit, mind that FFXIV has a lot more developer love than most. It's nothing personal, we'd just like to see some things improved, even if it is just a pipedream.

FreelanceWizard · **04-29-2015, 12:30 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:19 PM)Hyrist Wrote: Are you unhappy about it on principle, or because the result wound up being something that does not appeal to you? Granted, it's ok to be both.

Mostly, it bothers me on principle. Artists, in my mind, shouldn't be kowtowing to financiers; doing so is basically throwing art under the bus in favor of making money. We already give those with capital far too much control over our society, IMO. But that's a discussion for a different thread. Smile

With that said, I actually like the appearance of the race -- there's actually not a single race in XIV I don't like the looks of. Smile

Whether I like it in general or enough to play one depends on the lore. I'm still waiting for the explanation of the extreme sexual dimorphism.

Also, yes to being able to go barefoot. I really don't like that we can't do that.

Now with that said, work time:

<magicAdminHat>
One initiative I'd like to get back to is not zapping posts out of the threads. I will, however, request that those discussing genderqueer issues in games in general either take it to PM or another thread over in Off-Topic. Thanks.
</magicAdminHat>

Gegenji · **04-29-2015, 12:30 PM**

It was mentioned that money/resources isn't a valid arguing point (or something akin to it), but I'd have to argue that it very much does. Especially with a Triple-A title, it shouldn't be all that surprising that situation like the hated "focus group data" event that led to the Au Ra would occur. It looks like a cash grab because that's what it is - they want to sell as many copies of Heavensward as possible.

And you can't say it hasn't worked: even here on the RPC, we have plenty of excitement for it. Some people came back specifically for it. That's what they are going for. You could say the same thing about the new classes - tons of people are clamoring for DRK and MCH.

With that in mind, it is an unfortunate truth that the minority's voice will likely be left unheard. Beastly and/or burly females won't be added or able to be made beyond what already exists because too few of the player base plays them to make it look like a sound investment on SE's part. Of course, they wouldn't know how well a more monstrous or or brawny race might do, but it's a two-way street: just as Â it could do well, it could just as likely be ignored by all but a few niche players.

Niche markets are not as profitable. The best I believe they can provide is the small nods here and there that they've done so far. And if there is generally positive reactions to these nods, by enough of the player base, then it starts looking more and more like a net gain for the company to invest into it more.

The issue is how to translate that into people wanting a more robust character creation system? I agree that it's lacking in several areas (where's my fat heroes?), but I am unsure of a "safe" method for them to test the waters. Especially considering the only way to adjust a character's overall shape and appearance outside of character creation is with a store-bought item.

The best I can see happening is that they add a new face or two and see how many people Fantasia into using them. I just can't see the implementation of ass sliders and the like without a very public and widespread demand for them.

So, as regrettable as it may be, we are stuck working with what we have and letting our imaginations cover for the rest. I'd really enjoy a muscle slider for Chachan, but I still somehow manage to portray that burl that doesn't actually exist on his model. And I'm content enough wit that until some large movement takes place to let SE know that the majority of the player base is wanting - and willing to pay for - a more robust character creation system.

Because I would be totally willing to add my signature to the pile.

Wymsical · **04-29-2015, 12:32 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:22 PM)Blue Wrote: Really, the best way to make happy both those who wanted short females and feminine males (like me) and those who want rough horned women and tall Au Ra men would've been to make two physically different clans, with different emotes and customizations. I'm still annoyed that only Hyurs got that candy. You'd think that in two years they could've designed two clans separated by something more than scale color.

Because it's essentially making two different races. Wholly new meshes, faces, features, the way armor and clothing fits on them, ect. It's a lot of work and they did it once; sadly, there's very few people playing the second half of that race. Given how much else they were doing with HW, I understand why they probably considered it but were unable to justify that amount of work for what might've very well been another 40% of a 6%.

Zhavi · **04-29-2015, 12:32 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:20 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:18 PM)Zhavi Wrote: Hahahaha.

Okay, for an example, the troll female faces besides the pretty one (pre the graphics update, I don't know what they look like now), could easily qualify for rugged.

Weathered, lined, rough-around-the-edges, a little fierce: you can achieve this with roe to a degree, but with the Au Ra, with the horns and the scales -- I was just hoping for something taller and meaner and maybe a little less of the typical beauty.

(I'm starting to realize from these discussions that what I want to see is a very narrow aesthetic -- but, I dunno, I'd be okay with fifth face options for races that go a little outside of the box for that race, which lets the devs have their target audience while still filling for the niche lovers)

I think an easy middle ground would be to provide options within the race selections to add or discard characteristics like hair, or more chiseled/rugged features. Â I'd love to see them add things like that in addition to hairstyles (which I think someone else suggested, too?).

Yeah. I wouldn't mind if for the next expansion they didn't add a new race and instead upgraded customization of current races. That way you're not cutting out time necessary for new gear and emotes and stuff (as the time/people who would be doing the customization would be doing that instead of building stuff for a new race), while still giving people something new to play with.

That would tick off all the boxes of things that would make me happy.

Harmonixer · **04-29-2015, 12:32 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:24 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:20 PM)Harmonixer Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:18 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 12:16 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: One of the reasons as to why I stopped playing a Highlander, personally. I figured I might as well go down the 'classically handsome' route instead since it's just as satisfying to me as 'rough and rugged' but it's actually possible to reflect it in-game.

It's truly a crime. Â More hair options would be amazing.

I'm still trying to figure out why we wear sandals everywhere Â tho. Â xD

If this was ment in any seriousness, I think it's something to do with how the models are rigged. They are always in some kind of 'shoe' and unable to be rendered otherwise. The texture would stretch out and look weird over a foot mesh.

It bugs the hell out of me too, but like I said- pretty sure it's the model itself being a problem.

I know there is probably a really good reason for it, but I miss being able to go bare foot. Â I would love to see a pair of shoes in the game that lets you appear to be barefoot, but I don't know if that's possible.

Technically, there is. It's possible to make a 'barefoot' shoe. The problem is, it would have to equipable. Then you couldn't wear anything on the bottom, plus possible stretching textures and seams where the 'shoe' ends.

I strongly believe it's easier for the modelers to have a 'shoe' on at all times because of (coming full circle now) PS3. It's part shortcut, part hardware.

Unrelated, but related. I have reason to believe the Au Ra males use male Miqote bones for their rigging. It's eerily similar in the videos I've seen. I hope it changes, it's the only thing I don't like. Very bouncy and sort of out of place considering their frame is so large. If it is, again it would be a shortcut because they wouldn't have to build a new model completely.

At this rate, they are just really burly stretched out cats for the males. But I like to think there's some more than that. We'll see though.

Mercer · **04-29-2015, 12:44 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:30 PM)Gegenji Wrote: It was mentioned that money/resources isn't a valid arguing point (or something akin to it), but I'd have to argue that it very much does. Especially with a Triple-A title, it shouldn't be all that surprising that situation like the hated "focus group data" event that led to the Au Ra would occur. It looks like a cash grab because that's what it is - they want to sell as many copies of Heavensward as possible.

And you can't say it hasn't worked: even here on the RPC, we have plenty of excitement for it. Some people came back specifically for it. That's what they are going for. You could say the same thing about the new classes - tons of people are clamoring for DRK and MCH.

With that in mind, it is an unfortunate truth that the minority's voice will likely be left unheard. Beastly and/or burly females won't be added or able to be made beyond what already exists because too few of the player base plays them to make it look like a sound investment on SE's part. Of course, they wouldn't know how well a more monstrous or or brawny race might do, but it's a two-way street: just as Â it could do well, it could just as likely be ignored by all but a few niche players.

Niche markets are not as profitable. The best I believe they can provide is the small nods here and there that they've done so far. And if there is generally positive reactions to these nods, by enough of the player base, then it starts looking more and more like a net gain for the company to invest into it more.

The issue is how to translate that into people wanting a more robust character creation system? I agree that it's lacking in several areas (where's my fat heroes?), but I am unsure of a "safe" method for them to test the waters. Especially considering the only way to adjust a character's overall shape and appearance outside of character creation is with a store-bought item.

The best I can see happening is that they add a new face or two and see how many people Fantasia into using them. I just can't see the implementation of ass sliders and the like without a very public and widespread demand for them.

So, as regrettable as it may be, we are stuck working with what we have and letting our imaginations cover for the rest. I'd really enjoy a muscle slider for Chachan, but I still somehow manage to portray that burl that doesn't actually exist on his model. And I'm content enough wit that until some large movement takes place to let SE know that the majority of the player base is wanting - and willing to pay for - a more robust character creation system.

Because I would be totally willing to add my signature to the pile.

Hi there, welcome to AAA game design where everything is about profit and trying not to drown in a sea of crap.

In all seriousness, I'd like to retread on something about FFXIV. The fact that this is a series on a second chance. Heavensward is really the first content we've seen since ARR was first developed. Yoshi-P has said that voice recording for the full 2.0 patch cycle was done before 2.1 launched. Features, ideas, story have all been done before the re-launch two years ago.Â

This is the first content shown that has been developed with the idea that FFXIV may be profitable. Even then, the plans and designs for Ishgard have been building since 1.0, five years ago. That is something that I think people lose track of during a game development cycle, all this plans and creations have been in place literally for years before they are shown.

To be blunt, game design is rarely on the same timeline as current events. It can take up to three years of real time for game development to catch up. All the concept and story work for this expansion is done, it's in production. Concepts for classes and races for the expansion after that are what are being developed now or might even already be done. MMO design is not a cut and dry process, it takes literal years to move from concept to production to launch. With as structured and consistent of a patching environment as XIV has, it's guaranteed that if Square does want to expand on it's race availability it's years out.

Hyrist · **04-29-2015, 12:51 PM**

(04-29-2015, 12:30 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Mostly, it bothers me on principle. Artists, in my mind, shouldn't be kowtowing to financiers; doing so is basically throwing art under the bus in favor of making money. We already give those with capital far too much control over our society, IMO. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

With that said, I actually like the appearance of the race -- there's actually not a single race in XIV I don't like the looks of. Whether I like it in general or enough to play one depends on the lore. I'm still waiting for the explanation of the extreme sexual dimorphism.

Also, yes to being able to go barefoot. I really don't like that we can't do that.

Now with that said, work time:

<magicAdminHat>
One initiative I'd like to get back to is not zapping posts out of the threads. I will, however, request that those discussing genderqueer issues in games in general either take it to PM or another thread over in Off-Topic. Thanks.
</magicAdminHat>

I can't fault that logic - that's the very reason why I did not go into Graphic Design. But regardless of whether or not you or I agree on the matter, it is the sad reality that as much 'artistic' as a game can feel, it falls far more into the field of Graphic Design, than Fine Arts.

And the unspoken devil of Graphic Design is that you are, in reality, selling out your artistic talent to the customer. It's not your baby, it's just your work. Gaming often wags back and forth across that line frequently.

As far as the Lore of the Race is concerned - I maneuvered myself to have my character in a situation in which her own race is Foreign to her. While I had not yet made the decision for a race change, the character long ago made foreshadowing that she was not as she appeared to be, and that even she did not understand it (and, in fact, feared it and tried to flee from the truth.) The fact that she's not even the same Race she was raised to believe is only the beginning of her journey of self discovery - in many ways.

It's actually working out very well and I'm excited to lead into this twist in her story.

Sidenote: I don't envy you, your hat. *pat pat*

Blue · **04-29-2015, 12:56 PM**

If the races design is truly profit-driven, and as such strongly based on demand, are we to imagine the next one will be Viera? People have been crying for it since that very first misfortunately worded poll back in 1.0...

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Character Creation: Assessment and Critique

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes