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Flashhelix · **08-02-2015, 01:42 AM**

(08-02-2015, 12:03 AM)Akos Wrote: The setting from my point of view has very little racial tension or actual racism in it. It's implied that it's there, but it isn't a strong part of most of the world. Gridania is xenophobic, Ul'dah is socioeconomic, Ishgard is class and religion based, but racial issues are pretty light, so I don't feel it's something I have to worry about rping. Honestly most of the tension seems to come from what city state you're aligned to, or in Ishguard's case your class and if you're considered a heretic or not.

Gridania's pretty racist against both Duskwights and against Keepers, each are mentioned in Gridanian/Shroud questlines, the former is a crucial story detail of the Lancer's Guild storyline. The reason that the world, as we see it, doesn't have much racism is because the character we play going through the quests isn't a downtrodden citizen of the shitty world that Eorzea is, they're a legendary hero blessed by a goddess who regularly does battle with evil nature-gods, dark wizards, and ancient robots. Of course, from what we, the players, are able to get from quests and miscellaneous lore sources, is limited when it comes to it because of the player character's viewpoint.

Not to mention that a lot of potential dialogue that could revolve around race is stifled by the fact that player races can be chosen, meaning that quests and other ingame material tends to completely ignore the player's chosen race. (At least from what I've seen)

As it's been said multiple times before in the thread. Not wanting to RP something because it disturbs or otherwise makes you uncomfortable is 100% fine, but don't try to act as if it doesn't exist in the setting. People don't come to a game or roleplay community, say "Man, I'd like to play a /huge dickbag racist/" and then go at it. They play the game or read into the lore, see things like that, and decide to give their characters flaws that are stated to be real problems in Eorzea.

I don't know what more proof people want. This argument should've ended a page ago with

Koji Fox Wrote:Most of the races donâ€™t really like each other

Shoshopu · **08-02-2015, 02:07 AM**

(08-02-2015, 01:42 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: As it's been said multiple times before in the thread. Not wanting to RP something because it disturbs or otherwise makes you uncomfortable is 100% fine, but don't try to act as if it doesn't exist in the setting. People don't come to a game or roleplay community, say "Man, I'd like to play a /huge dickbag racist/" and then go at it. They play the game or read into the lore, see things like that, and decide to give their characters flaws that are stated to be real problems in Eorzea.

I don't know what more proof people want. This argument should've ended a page ago with

Koji Fox Wrote:Most of the races donâ€™t really like each other

He's literally not saying it doesn't exist, though. He's just explaining his perspective and experiences as they relate to this sort of RP. He even said "from my point of view". That's not arguing. He's just saying they're lightly touched upon, relatively, compared to other themes- and I'm sure it seems especially so relative to his own life. (And argue about the IC/OOC separation stuff all you want, but there's a real human behind every RP character and their lives do effect their RP, even if the degree of it varies from person to person.) If you'd never played lancer you wouldn't be exposed to that plotline, for example. There's lots of ways you could miss it, the game honestly does gloss over it most of the time. It's mentioned, it exists, but it's not in your face or directed towards you most of the time.

edit: Sorry to come off like the tone police, I just feel like this thread (not you specifically) is coming off as overly argumentative, bordering on being a little hostile, on this particularly sensitive subject. It's very subjective and personal to a lot of people, and that too needs to be acknowledged just as much as the oft-stated fact racism exists in this setting. Which it does, and I don't think anybody's really trying to argue about it at this point.

LiadansWhisper · **08-02-2015, 02:30 AM**

(08-02-2015, 02:07 AM)Shoshopu Wrote: He's literally not saying it doesn't exist, though. He's just explaining his perspective and experiences as they relate to this sort of RP. He even said "from my point of view". That's not arguing. He's just saying they're lightly touched upon, relatively, compared to other themes- and I'm sure it seems especially so relative to his own life. (And argue about the IC/OOC separation stuff all you want, but there's a real human behind every RP character and their lives do effect their RP, even if the degree of it varies from person to person.) If you'd never played lancer you wouldn't be exposed to that plotline, for example. There's lots of ways you could miss it, the game honestly does gloss over it most of the time. It's mentioned, it exists, but it's not in your face or directed towards you most of the time.

Well, it did actually come across to me as him saying that the racism doesn't exist because he doesn't want to deal with it. Â He doesn't see it, so it's not there.

I understand that there's a real human being behind every player, but a setting is a setting. Â If a setting is upsetting enough for you that you feel the need to just ignore a rather important part of it (and, sorry, but in my opinion, the fact that we have these races living together that refuse to intermarry or interbreed on a regular basis, in which subraces often hate and revile each other is kind of a Big Deal ™), then maybe you shouldn't play in that setting?

I'll give you an example. Â Once upon a time, I played in a Forgotten Realms setting in Neverwinter Nights. Â Now, originally I'd planned on playing a slightly-damaged, kind and open-minded Elven character. Â But as I started playing, I noticed the strangest thing. Â We were in Cormyr, and there, in the middle of Arabel, were some Drow. Â Openly. Â Advertising their presence. Â But don't worry, they assured us, they weren't the bad Drow. Â They were good Drow. Â And 90% of the population played right along, complete with hugging of the Drow, petting of the Drow, oh, the Drow are so awesome, etc.

And I thought that was really weird, to be frank. Â Because in the setting, Drow are the people who murder your family while you're sleeping and hang their skinned corpses from the ceiling to greet you when you wake up. Â They're the stuff of absolute nightmares to most people, to the point that many Elves refuse to even believe their good deity - Elistraee - exists at all. Â Because the Drow are so evil, how could there possibly be good ones?

So, well, I'm a damn stickler for Lore. Â So my slightly-damaged, mostly open-minded Sun Elf morphed into a revenge-seeking former slave-turned-Arcane Archer who followed Shevarash and regularly delivered dozens of ears to his altar as her offering. Â And she never missed an opportunity to remind people that Drow were evil, Drow would lie to you, make friends with you, and murder you the moment they had the opportunity. Â Because Drow are evil. Â They are evil and you shouldn't be hugging them in the middle of the damn town square.

She was racist as fuck. Â Because that was the setting. Â That's what the setting said was the default reaction, but everyone was so worried about hurting people's feelings OOC that they didn't want to play that reaction out. Â "I don't want to upset this person OOC, so I'm going to ignore the setting and hug the Drow." Â And that wasn't fair to the other players, and it, quite frankly, wasn't fair to the Drow players, because they didn't get an authentic experience. Â So I made the character I originally envisoned as a sweet, kind character into a bit of a monster (she slid so fast from Neutral Good to Chaotic Neutral it wasn't even funny) because no one else was willing to uphold the setting. Â Someone had to do it. Â Might as well be me (especially given that Sun Elves were known to be extremely racist anyway).

But, see, lots of people can't separate OOC from IC. Â And even though I had 0 problems with any of the Drow players OOC, and was, in fact, good friends with several of them, I got the most amazing OOC hate for my character being such a hardliner. Â People would get so angry at me because of things my character said and did. Â People knew the setting stated that Drow were basically persona non grata (cuz who invites a serial killer to lunch, srsly?), but they didn't want to play it out because god forbid we hurt someone's feelings OOC by what we do IC.

Seriously - do you want to play the setting? Â Because either you do, or you don't. Â If you do, you need to accept that the society in this setting is flawed. Â Deeply, profoundly flawed. Â There is inequality. Â There is religious fanaticism. Â And there is deeply ingrained racism floating just beneath the surface that pops into plain view here and there (check the Lancer quests if you want to see a great example, or the poor Duskwight NPC outside the building). Â There is sexism, and what amounts to all but coming out and saying, "Hey, by the way, we have sex slaves." Â It isn't for the faint of heart, but it's there. Â Either you want to play in the setting, or you don't. Â I mean, ultimately it's fine if you really don't want to play anything but a super nice character who isn't mean or racist or sexist. Â That's fine. Â But I sincerely hope people will stop having a problem with the people who try to adhere a bit closer to the setting at the cost of their characters engaging in behavior that the players probably find repugnant.

Quote:edit: Sorry to come off like the tone police, I just feel like this thread (not you specifically) is coming off as overly argumentative, bordering on being a little hostile, on this particularly sensitive subject.

It's a discussion. Â I haven't seen anyone get mean or nasty. Â Disagreement != argument. Â It means we're discussing and debating back and forth. Â Not really sure what you're getting at, tbh.

Flashhelix · **08-02-2015, 02:31 AM**

(08-02-2015, 02:07 AM)Shoshopu Wrote:
(08-02-2015, 01:42 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: As it's been said multiple times before in the thread. Not wanting to RP something because it disturbs or otherwise makes you uncomfortable is 100% fine, but don't try to act as if it doesn't exist in the setting. People don't come to a game or roleplay community, say "Man, I'd like to play a /huge dickbag racist/" and then go at it. They play the game or read into the lore, see things like that, and decide to give their characters flaws that are stated to be real problems in Eorzea.

I don't know what more proof people want. This argument should've ended a page ago with

Koji Fox Wrote:Most of the races donâ€™t really like each other

He's literally not saying it doesn't exist, though. He's just explaining his perspective and experiences as they relate to this sort of RP. He even said "from my point of view". That's not arguing. He's just saying they're lightly touched upon, relatively, compared to other themes- and I'm sure it seems especially so relative to his own life. (And argue about the IC/OOC separation stuff all you want, but there's a real human behind every RP character and their lives do effect their RP, even if the degree of it varies from person to person.) If you'd never played lancer you wouldn't be exposed to that plotline, for example. There's lots of ways you could miss it, the game honestly does gloss over it most of the time. It's mentioned, it exists, but it's not in your face or directed towards you most of the time.

edit: Sorry to come off like the tone police, I just feel like this thread (not you specifically) is coming off as overly argumentative, bordering on being a little hostile, on this particularly sensitive subject. It's very subjective and personal to a lot of people, and that too needs to be acknowledged just as much as the oft-stated fact racism exists in this setting. Which it does, and I don't think anybody's really trying to argue about it at this point.

Actually, he said

(08-02-2015, 12:03 AM)Akos Wrote: The setting from my point of view has very little racial tension or actual racism in it.

Which is wrong. The setting has plenty of racism. If he'd said that the racism in the game's setting was not a main focus on the storyline, then he might have something, but to say it just doesn't have it is simply wrong.

If somebody doesn't have knowledge of the setting, then maybe it's not best to come into a thread and say "X doesn't exist in the setting." That's a recipe for disaster. We've been over the subjective part multiple times and people seem to get it. It's completely alright to not be comfortable with mature or dark themes in RP. The objective part, that racism and prejudice between the races is prevalent in the setting, is the part that people seem to be having trouble with.

Shoshopu · **08-02-2015, 02:52 AM**

(08-02-2015, 02:30 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Well, it did actually come across to me as him saying that the racism doesn't exist because he doesn't want to deal with it. Â He doesn't see it, so it's not there.

That isn't what he said, though.

(08-02-2015, 02:30 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: <big ol' snip>

But, see, lots of people can't separate OOC from IC. Â And even though I had 0 problems with any of the Drow players OOC, and was, in fact, good friends with several of them, I got the most amazing OOC hate for my character being such a hardliner. Â People would get so angry at me because of things my character said and did. Â People knew the setting stated that Drow were basically persona non grata (cuz who invites a serial killer to lunch, srsly?), but they didn't want to play it out because god forbid we hurt someone's feelings OOC by what we do IC.

Well, that sucks and that was wrong of them to be angry at you, but I don't see anybody actually doing that in this thread. In fact, the people posting who say they're uncomfortable RPing these themes themselves have asserted several times that they're fine with other people RPing it and would politely ask others not to RP it with them if someone tried to. I fail to see why everyone's still being so defensive on this point in this thread. (Please don't read that in a condescending tone, I don't mean for it to be.)

(08-02-2015, 02:30 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Seriously - do you want to play the setting? Â Because either you do, or you don't. Â If you do, you need to accept that the society in this setting is flawed. Â Deeply, profoundly flawed.

Nobody's arguing that the setting isn't flawed- at least as not as strongly as you're arguing it is. People have argued it's progressive in other aspects, like sexual freedoms, or that it's inaccurate to use progressive/conservative to describe the setting and try to relate it to our world, but I'm pretty sure nobody's arguing that it's without flaw or has no racism.

(08-02-2015, 02:30 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: It's a discussion. Â I haven't seen anyone get mean or nasty. Â Disagreement != argument. Â It means we're discussing and debating back and forth. Â Not really sure what you're getting at, tbh.

The language people are using in this thread is honestly on the curt side, and there's a little bit of putting-words-into-peoples'-mouths going on, although I'm not inclined to point at specific people and examples for the sake of not instigating drama. (EDIT: The word "argument" was specifically used, and that is what I was referring to. That's part of why I posted in the first place.)

(08-02-2015, 02:31 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: Actually, he said

(08-02-2015, 12:03 AM)A'kos Wrote: The setting from my point of view has very little racial tension or actual racism in it.
Which is wrong. The setting has plenty of racism. If he'd said that the racism in the game's setting was not a main focus on the storyline, then he might have something, but to say it just doesn't have it is simply wrong.

If somebody doesn't have knowledge of the setting, then maybe it's not best to come into a thread and say "X doesn't exist in the setting." That's a recipe for disaster. We've been over the subjective part multiple times and people seem to get it. It's completely alright to not be comfortable with mature or dark themes in RP. The objective part, that racism and prejudice between the races is prevalent in the setting, is the part that people seem to be having trouble with.

"Very little" doesn't mean "none". He didn't say it doesn't exist. To me it seemed he was speaking in a relative sense. We all acknowledge it's there and it exists, but what we really seem to be disagreeing on is how relevant it should be to the individual player.

And as you said- it's been pointed out multiple times. You probably don't need to point it out again to the guy who's just trying to share his perspective and how this RP relates to him and his feelings.

edit: It's late and I feel things might be getting a bit off topic this point, and for that I apologize, so I personally am going to leave it. The point I'm trying to make is- this is a sensitive subject for many and I feel like perhaps the tone of the thread has gotten a bit smarmy, to the detriment of the discussion.

A'kos Saiyal · **08-02-2015, 02:59 AM**

(08-02-2015, 02:07 AM)Shoshopu Wrote:
(08-02-2015, 01:42 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: As it's been said multiple times before in the thread. Not wanting to RP something because it disturbs or otherwise makes you uncomfortable is 100% fine, but don't try to act as if it doesn't exist in the setting. People don't come to a game or roleplay community, say "Man, I'd like to play a /huge dickbag racist/" and then go at it. They play the game or read into the lore, see things like that, and decide to give their characters flaws that are stated to be real problems in Eorzea.

I don't know what more proof people want. This argument should've ended a page ago with

Koji Fox Wrote:Most of the races donâ€™t really like each other

He's literally not saying it doesn't exist, though. He's just explaining his perspective and experiences as they relate to this sort of RP. He even said "from my point of view". That's not arguing. He's just saying they're lightly touched upon, relatively, compared to other themes- and I'm sure it seems especially so relative to his own life. (And argue about the IC/OOC separation stuff all you want, but there's a real human behind every RP character and their lives do effect their RP, even if the degree of it varies from person to person.) If you'd never played lancer you wouldn't be exposed to that plotline, for example. There's lots of ways you could miss it, the game honestly does gloss over it most of the time. It's mentioned, it exists, but it's not in your face or directed towards you most of the time.

edit: Sorry to come off like the tone police, I just feel like this thread (not you specifically) is coming off as overly argumentative, bordering on being a little hostile, on this particularly sensitive subject.

Thank you for your understanding Smile

I don't know how much more clear I could make it. Others playing it up is cool with me, I don't think the player is any less of a person or anything because the character is racist. Taking ERP as an example, some people hate it and want nothing to do with it, some people think it's great and embrace it (I spent two hours reading and and going through links of a courtesan guide today, I have to say a great thank you for posting that, if the poster happens to read this). Is either of them wrong or less of a player for their stance? Does that mean they're somehow less of an rp'er if they do or do not participate in erotic themes?

I find the insinuation that I only like happy go lucky rp with where everything is great is insulting and honestly just stupid. Especially if someone hasn't rp'd with me. There's so much more to focus on if a focus is needed, and many other angles. If I don't like torture scenes rp'd in exacting detail, I then only want to play happy light stuff? That's ridiculous, but hey, torture happens in game world probably every time someone is 'questioned' off screen.

I'm not even saying it's not there, but having lived it, and living with it, I look at its depiction in game and see it as lightly done, this game isn't setting out to be super gritty and dark, even when it brings up a dark plot point or has a harsh moment.

If anyone needs another example, I could watch a movie based around the Vietnam war with my father, a veteran of that war. What I see might be greatly disturbing, what he could see is how much lighter the movie makes events out to be, and how it glosses over some aspects that to this day haunt him.

This is just a fact of story telling and the audience. Not all aspects are going to affect everyone in the same way. What one person sees as deep and poignant, another will look at it as fluff for any number of reasons. I don't make racist characters, or join in on that aspect, but I'm still down for other dark and gritty things. Out of character however, I absolutely want to keep things happy go lucky between players, I make no apologies for that. Because despite what some people think, there's a person on the other side of that screen typing, playing and interacting with us. Just because we're using electronic devices, doesn't mean it's not human interaction.

Fox · **08-02-2015, 03:00 AM**

Racism does exist within the game, we know this. Lore has given snippets and Koji Fox himself has said that it exists. I don't think anyone is arguing this. We know it, some people enjoy rping it, others don't. I'm of the opinion that; do it but don't over do it. Otherwise it becomes an over-hyped cliche.

Though my bigger issue is mostly this thread in general because of the fact that this comes off as another; OP posting something to incite. Even if this isn't the intent, it comes off that way. I don't see the point of posting threads of the same concept by the same OP. There have been a number of threads of 'racism' that have been addressed already and in the end they always boil back down to this point that's already been discussed before by this same person.

We know OP dislikes au ra, miqo'te, <insert race> he's expressed this before. And we -get- it. We know he dislikes them, we know he enjoys rping racial tension, etc. Don't get me wrong, that is fine. I have characters that dislike X race. However-we've had threads like this before from this exact OP. Even posts where he has posted in other threads.

Do we really need to go over the same exact issues that have been brought up a number of times already by the OP. We know what the camps are already on this topic. "People who like rping X" and "People who dislike rping Y" when it comes to racism. In the end all it does is end up with a locked thread because things get out of hand.

Flashhelix · **08-02-2015, 03:01 AM**

(08-02-2015, 02:52 AM)Shoshopu Wrote: "Very little" doesn't mean "none". He didn't say it doesn't exist. To me it seemed he was speaking in a relative sense. We all acknowledge it's there and it exists, but what we really seem to be disagreeing on is how relevant it should be to the individual player.

"The setting has very little racism" does not mean the same thing as "The setting's racism isn't relevant to my roleplay." That's all I'm going to say on the matter since this is going nowhere fast.

Moonlit · **08-02-2015, 03:13 AM**

(08-02-2015, 12:48 AM)abnormalnomad Wrote: I don't know.Â

If you don't want to RP racist characters or themes, that's absolutely fine, and in fact, I have characters for the sole purpose of being 'happy-go-lucky/friend-of-everyone' that are a blast. Eorzea's racism never affects their lives or ever even comes up, and for all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist for them because of how they've lived their lives. Nobody is forcing you to RP stuff like this.

But, in the same vein, racism does exist in this game and this world and the lore we're steeped in. Whether it's the physical differences and beliefs between the Auri peoples, cultural differences between Wildwood and Duskwight Elezen, a general dislike for Hyurans after your character being stiffed on a deal, general Garlean hatred (or adoration), whatever reason anyone 'needs' to be racist, it's out there, and some people will also choose to RP it and have it be a part of their character. You can't close your eyes and say, "It doesn't exist, because I don't like it." That's not how things work.

It would honestly be better to bring up specific examples of all the races working together (such as at Carteneau/adventure groups/etc.), and making the IC claim that 'hey, we can all coexist, just look at x,y,z', than it would to take it OOC and say, 'as a player, this offends me and i want you to change you/your character/your stories/etc.'. That's not how it works, either.

If none of that works or suits your fancy? Politely excuse yourself from the RP. Nobody is going to chase you down and make you do anything you don't want to. You have free choice and agency for a reason, after all. You just need to use it.

It's really that simple, in my opinion.

(08-02-2015, 03:00 AM)Foxberry Wrote: Racism does exist within the game, we know this. Lore has given snippets and Koji Fox himself has said that it exists. I don't think anyone is arguing this. We know it, some people enjoy rping it, others don't. I'm of the opinion that; do it but don't over do it. Otherwise it becomes an overhyped cliche.

Though my bigger issue is mostly this thread in general because of the fact that this comes off as another; OP posting something to incite. Even if this isn't the intent, it comes off that way. I don't see the issue of posting threads of the same concept by the same OP. There have been numbers of thread of 'racial topics' that have been addressed already and in the end they always boil back down to this point that's already been discussed before.

We know OP dislikes au ra, miqo'te, <insert race> he's expressed this before. And we -get- it. We know he dislikes them, we know he enjoys rping racial tension, etc. Don't get me wrong, that is fine. I have characters that dislike X race. However-we've had threads like this before from this exact OP. Even posts where he has posted in other threads.

Do we really need to go over the same exact issues that have been brought up a number of times already by the OP.

We know what the camps are already on this topic. "People who like rping X" and "People who dislike rping Y" when it comes to racism.

Pretty much this is how I feel about this thread. These discussions have happened enough it just sort of feels like we're at the, "Kicking the dead horse," stage? They're not even hard to find when you search for them.

That being said, some of the posts I've read have really given off the vibe of, "For shame, how dareÂ you don't roleplay in <this particular way>." Whereas that's not necessarily their intention I believe we all play characters the way we do for a reason.

And that's okay. It's one of those, "Live and let live," situations. I, also, can't honestly speak for how much of a problem this is out of my own experience. From what I've witnessed, people have accepted conservative and liberal characters in my social circles. There's never been a problem of, "How dare you RP a racist!"

Though, I have heard about these situations. I've heard about IC and OOC lines being crossed on bothÂ sides of this playing field (in other games, mind you, so I get where the fear stems from?). My only suggestion with this is:
If you don't want to roleplay a conservative character then don't.
If you don't want to roleplay with conservative characters then don't.
If you encounter a conservative player through public RP and don't want to be involved in it, leave, don't suddenly get OOC offended because they're not playing according to your sandbox. You went to the public sandbox. You can go back to yours and play with your toys and friends.

This goes for the liberal side, too:
Â If you don't want to roleplay a liberal character then don't.
If you don't want to roleplay withÂ liberalÂ characters then don't.
If you encounter aÂ liberalÂ player through public RP and don't want to be involved in it, leave, don't suddenly get OOCÂ offended because they're not playing according to your sandbox. You went to the public sandbox. You can go back to yours and play with your toys and friends.

IC =/= OOC
IG =/= RL

It's never going to be fully accepted by roleplay communites. There's always going to be "them apples," but the most you can do is strive to not be one of them. I play liberal characters. I'm comfortable with liberal characters. That isn't to say that I disapprove of conservative characters because enjoying liberal characters doesn't instantly make me some conservative hater. That's not how that works. I encourage players to tell their stories, how they want to be told, with the people they desire to tell them with.Â

Blahblah, I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess my point is:
Play what you want to.Â You can encourage people to play various different archtypes and flaws but don't discourage people from playing in a fashion they're comfortable with.

*disclaimer: this is not directed to any one person. There's just some vibes I'm getting from this thread where it feels like it has gone or will go in that direction. Try to dodge it. You're all beautiful.Â â™¥

Cato · **08-02-2015, 03:14 AM**

I wonder how much of this has to do with role-players being prone to escapism? There's no easy way to state this without being controversial but if there's one thing I've realised during my time playing numerous MMO's it's that a lot of the players who flock to them - particularly within the role-playing community - use role-play as a means of escapism.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing though it can and does sometimes go too far - especially when there's implications that someone is 'racist' or 'bad' in the real world because they happen to play a character who isn't politically correct.

We also live in a society that is currently going through a phase where if somebody doesn't like something then they can (and often do) kick and scream about being 'triggered' or 'offended' by it to the point where things end up getting censored and/or changed to avoid bad PR and to appease vocal individuals delicate sensibilities.

I'm not saying that this is what is going on within this thread but it's interesting to discuss and may explain why, in turn, people aren't all that keen on the idea of such themes being ignored, mitigated or shunned altogether.

If someone is 'triggered' by mature themes then it may be for the best that they avoid investing in stuff like The Witcher, Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead. They're also quite clearly labelled as having 'mature themes' (at least here in England) and the same can be said of FFXIV as far as I can tell.

Otherwise, where do we draw the line? If you cut 'racism' out of The Witcher, Game of Thrones or FFXIV then entire sub-plots and important characters would need to be completely rewritten. It serves only to limit creativity and in turn lead to stories becoming very bland.

Again, nobody is obligated to do anything they don't wish to do - and from what I can tell the OP isn't trying to demand that anybody does anything they don't want to do. Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but he seems to simply want to incite and interesting debate about a particular aspect of Eorzean society that isn't well represented within role-play.

Marisa · **08-02-2015, 03:15 AM**

It's times like these I often wish I'd stuck with Barrett as my main RP character. God he was awesome... he loved to tell everyone their race sucked, and he wasn't afraid to punch a gnome for having a stupid face.Â
You know what they say. The only good elf is a dead elf. Or the one who sells me that sweet Valenwood opium. Dwarves are cool, too. Everyone else can die in a ditch.

TheLastCandle · **08-02-2015, 08:49 AM**

I find it interesting when a character is shaped by his/her experiences. The xenophobic nationalism common to places like Ishgard is a good example of this. When I first started playing Yvelont, he had plenty of misgivings about the more unfamiliar races - Miqo'te in particular, as after he came to Gridania, everything he heard about the local Keepers painted them as poachers and brigands. Over time, his outlook began to change as he began working with and even befriending these heretofore unfamiliar peoples. He even took on one of these "poachers" as an apprentice, to teach her to better defend and hunt for her clan.

In roleplay, I love coming across more traditional Ishgardian characters just for the contrast.

Kellach Woods · **08-02-2015, 09:07 AM**

it's hard for me to take this thread seriously because of the title.

Gridanian Racism
to give you an idea : we give more of a shit about this than Square does - Amounts of time it's been brought up since the 2.0 quests? Zero. It's not even brought up if your character is a duskwight. I'd not be surprised if they were like "uh who gives a shit about Gridania anyway go grind some more."

Ul'dah is a bunch of douchebags part 234087234982384
nothing new under the bridge here. this has been covered extensively throughout the MSQ that Ul'dah is a piece of shit city and anyone living in it should set themselves on fire for penance of living there.

-signed, Sil'dih.

Overall racism
if racism was as overt as some of y'all are saying it'd be part of the quests a whole lot more than in that one Lancer (and Archer questlines - remember the Keeper gal says she had some problems fitting in) questline. hell most of the racist questlines lie in ONE place - Gridania.

Ishgard is religious fanaticism, and not racism (else the hyur, though they have a rawer deal than the elezen for the most part, would have been a lot more present in the Brume) - though the hatred of interracial relationships is part of every culture (Wanderer's Palace Hard unlock quest confirms it in Limsa, and MSQ in Ishgard).

Blue · **08-02-2015, 11:52 AM**

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I don't think this should much of an "be racist!" "don't be racist!" argument. I think it's more of giving some care to people who do choose certain targeted races/jobs/statues/whatchamacallit. I chose a Duskwight because I wanted to be ICly targeted with discrimination, and I didn't get any. I chose Au Ra because I wanted to be treated like an intruder, someone unknown and to be mistrusted, and I didn't get any. It's a sort of mistreatment, in a way, though obviously not intended.

But it's not much like refusing to acknowledge that a Miqo'te has a tail or that a Lalafell is small. People choose their characters based on what they want to RP, and refusing to acknowledge how the setting treats a certain character's race (again, race being an example), is not too far from refusing to acknowledge what the player wanted their character to be.

Or at least, that is the way I see it. I'm sure there are Au Ra or Duskwight RPers out there who don't want to be ICly mistreated despite the world's settings. And I'm glad they're getting what they want. At the same time, I'm upset I am not getting what I want.

Cato · **08-02-2015, 11:57 AM**

I think one of my biggest issues with the lack of racism within role-play is that it's all too easy for many of the playable races to literally come across as 'hyur-with-long-ears'. It's something that always rubbed me the wrong way about many blood elves back when I role-played in WoW.

I adored the race and their lore and yet the bulk of role-players ignored all that in favour of just portraying them as if they were humans adhering to real world modern day values and morality.

Discrimination (when done tastefully) adds an immense amount of depth to a character be they victim or perpetrator. I really hope that this discussion encourages more role-players to indulge!

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Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism

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