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Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 05:31 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:24 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: Do you have the same problems if it does't get "just scrapped". If it dies organically ICly is that a problem still if its death wouldn't have happened without the third party's intervention?

Let me ask you, do you think the third party intentionally directed the IC behavior in order to facilitate the breakdown for an OOC reason?

I mean, if this was all organic and natural between the characters, it's just a matter of letting everyone know that it's nothing personal and maybe broadening your character pool. Â The problem's going to become bad when it goes beyond that, when people are essentially inflicting their characters like fire axes to get what they want OOC.

If you're getting anywhere into that latter area, disregard what I said about organic character reactions, because organic character reactions might already be out the window as a solution.

Again, I don't have the details, just going from what you're telling me and my experience as a roleplayer. Â Be very careful as you examine what's going on OOCly.

As long as you don't think there's a problem, just go with what your character would do. Â That's just how it is.

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 05:33 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:28 PM)Caspar Wrote: If it dies icly, I'm not sure what the problem is? You don't have to execute your storyline with those people specifically. Everyone needs to be on board. This is how things turned out, and if you're dissatisfied with the result, maybe try a simlar plot later with different collaborators or next time include flexibility so as to be able to accommodate different styles and disparate rp goals as the need arises.

There is no problem, just making sure.

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 05:35 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:33 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:28 PM)Caspar Wrote: If it dies icly, I'm not sure what the problem is? You don't have to execute your storyline with those people specifically. Everyone needs to be on board. This is how things turned out, and if you're dissatisfied with the result, maybe try a simlar plot later with different collaborators or next time include flexibility so as to be able to accommodate different styles and disparate rp goals as the need arises.

There is no problem, just making sure.

Then I figure everything is cool. The impression I was getting was you were concerned of leaving someone out or being unable to coordinate the two players together so that everyone is happy. Which is a legitimate concern for any considerate player and not at all an issue of bleed without some pretty severe stretches of the imagination, in my opinion.

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 05:37 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:26 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: I mean you're allowed to be incorrect with your speculation. I come from an RTS background where one of the best ways to play is generally discuss the game. I still think some Starcraft 2 builds and strategies would have never been discovered if not for people talking about them.

Having a problem and being involved in it, and knowing of these kinds of problems and being willing to discuss and talk about them aren't the same thing.

But you're right for me those would immediately be a huge red flag. Anytime someone draws a line super arbitrarily like that that basically says "My way or the high way." You're about to run out of road really fast.

I say this as a roleplayer who's made the mistake before a few times, so believe me, I'm not getting judgmental. Â Someone had to teach me this stuff, too. Â And, again, like I said, it's sometimes difficult to spot because so much can be hidden in the IC interactions.

But man do you not want this kind of thing to blow up in your face. Â I've been on hand for quite a few spectacular RP meltdowns when someone's OOC plans, OOC feelings, and OOC issues suddenly exploded and took a chunk of the block with them.

I don't know how bad the ones you've seen so far have been, but believe me when I say it's worth the caution.

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 05:39 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:37 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:26 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: I mean you're allowed to be incorrect with your speculation. I come from an RTS background where one of the best ways to play is generally discuss the game. I still think some Starcraft 2 builds and strategies would have never been discovered if not for people talking about them.

Having a problem and being involved in it, and knowing of these kinds of problems and being willing to discuss and talk about them aren't the same thing.

But you're right for me those would immediately be a huge red flag. Anytime someone draws a line super arbitrarily like that that basically says "My way or the high way." You're about to run out of road really fast.

I say this as a roleplayer who's made the mistake before a few times, so believe me, I'm not getting judgmental. Â Someone had to teach me this stuff, too. Â And, again, like I said, it's sometimes difficult to spot because so much can be hidden in the IC interactions.

But man do you not want this kind of thing to blow up in your face. Â I've been on hand for quite a few spectacular RP meltdowns when someone's OOC plans, OOC feelings, and OOC issues suddenly exploded and took a chunk of the block with them.

I don't know how bad the ones you've seen so far have been, but believe me when I say it's worth the caution.

I will concede there are some RPers that I am aware of who are in this quagmire or just recently went through it which is why it's fresh in my mind, and yeah, they're not friends anymore. Its really sad.

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 05:42 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:39 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: I will concede there are some RPers that I am aware of who are in this quagmire or just recently went through it which is why it's fresh in my mind, and yeah, they're not friends anymore. Its really sad.

Be lucky it's sad; these can be scary. Â The last really big implosion tried to torpedo my IRL marriage. Â My wife learned a LOT about recognizing bleed early that day. Â Luckily, we keep chatlogs.

Diskwrite · **09-15-2015, 05:44 PM**

I've certainly seen (and experienced the fallout of) that sort of bleed. But in my experience, the real problem happens when someone tries to change the IC situation for OOC reasons- and not all parties are on the same OOCÂ page.

If all parties are in agreement OOC about what they want out of the situation, then is there a problem?

Different styles can create this kind of conflict themselves, because the players aren't in agreement on what they want out of it and how they approach IC interaction.

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 05:44 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:35 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:33 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:28 PM)Caspar Wrote: If it dies icly, I'm not sure what the problem is? You don't have to execute your storyline with those people specifically. Everyone needs to be on board. This is how things turned out, and if you're dissatisfied with the result, maybe try a simlar plot later with different collaborators or next time include flexibility so as to be able to accommodate different styles and disparate rp goals as the need arises.

There is no problem, just making sure.

Then I figure everything is cool. The impression I was getting was you were concerned of leaving someone out or being unable to coordinate the two players together so that everyone is happy. Which is a legitimate concern for any considerate player and not at all an issue of bleed without some pretty severe stretches of the imagination, in my opinion.

I wouldn't say the situations I had in mind were due to bleed but just bad communication and some people being stubborn. Not everyone is as reasonable as everyone here and if you do end up being the middle man, the older RPer in the provided examples, or the newer RPer what do you do in those responses and I think we can safely conclude that:

If you're the older RPer, don't change your story to meet the other two, but if you can do something and it keep to your character you should do it.

If you're the middle ground you shouldn't cut out your older friends/other stories for a new one especially if it damages or lessens their experience. You shouldn't change your character's attitudes either, but if the older or newer RPer do something significant that would affect your character, even if it wasn't in the original plan you should react to it.Â

And if you're the newer RPer, it might suck you maybe didn't know what you signed on for, but if there's some old history coming around you want no part in, you've got the least to lose don't stick around and cause drama. That said you can't ignore that history because its not something you like or thought would happen either. RPers are connected, a lot of what we do in game affects a LOT of other people, you can't just dictate what does and doesn't happen based on your feelings, and if you do, you're a bad RPer.

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 05:53 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:44 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:35 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:33 PM)SaintEaon Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 05:28 PM)Caspar Wrote: If it dies icly, I'm not sure what the problem is? You don't have to execute your storyline with those people specifically. Everyone needs to be on board. This is how things turned out, and if you're dissatisfied with the result, maybe try a simlar plot later with different collaborators or next time include flexibility so as to be able to accommodate different styles and disparate rp goals as the need arises.

There is no problem, just making sure.

Then I figure everything is cool. The impression I was getting was you were concerned of leaving someone out or being unable to coordinate the two players together so that everyone is happy. Which is a legitimate concern for any considerate player and not at all an issue of bleed without some pretty severe stretches of the imagination, in my opinion.

I wouldn't say the situations I had in mind were due to bleed but just bad communication and some people being stubborn. Not everyone is as reasonable as everyone here and if you do end up being the middle man, the older RPer in the provided examples, or the newer RPer what do you do in those responses and I think we can safely conclude that:

If you're the older RPer, don't change your story to meet the other two, but if you can do something and it keep to your character you should do it.

If you're the middle ground you shouldn't cut out your older friends/other stories for a new one especially if it damages or lessens their experience. You shouldn't change your character's attitudes either, but if the older or newer RPer do something significant that would affect your character, even if it wasn't in the original plan you should react to it.Â

And if you're the newer RPer, it might suck you maybe didn't know what you signed on for, but if there's some old history coming around you want no part in, you've got the least to lose don't stick around and cause drama. That said you can't ignore that history because its not something you like or thought would happen either. RPers are connected, a lot of what we do in game affects a LOT of other people, you can't just dictate what does and doesn't happen based on your feelings, and if you do, you're a bad RPer.

I'm pretty pessimistic and even I think the bleed fear is really stifling. There's a huge difference to me between being sad a cool opportunity was lost and being mad your character didn't get to do something. If a person is a mature adult, disappointment and ill-feeling fades. For those who have a weak grip on reality, the issue is a lot more volatile. But yes I do think in these situations, you've already sort of have a good thing going, and it sucks for the person joining late, but ideally you have enough flex room to include their story. I definitely think just ret-conning it is not something you should do on a whim, just for example, because you're salty things didn't progress in a way you wanted to.

Allister Dedrick · **09-16-2015, 09:13 AM**

Well, it wouldn't really take me much to change the plot because the plot is always changing. That's kind of the thing about RP; it's all improv--or at least, it should be in my opinion. This has happened a few times in the past couple months for Allister, and I kinda just rolled with it. It's roleplay, it's meant to be fun.

I agree with Ignacius about taking extra care to look out for OOC bleed. I've become a bit more cautious recently because of a similar situation. Someone's character developed a crush on Allister; her crush apparently bled OOC and I didn't even notice until it was too late.

Long story short, it was nuclear and couldn't have blown up any worse than it did.

So yeah, be /really/ careful. Far too many players seem to incorporate OOC feelings into IC and vice versa, and it can seriously damage people if left to fester unchecked or overlooked.

Vyce · **09-16-2015, 09:22 AM**

(09-15-2015, 02:12 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: For instance suppose you're deciding to take a character in a newer direction, the status quo's been the same for awhile and you meet some new RPers and start making a plot with them. At some point something happens, it could be from your old RP having some change, it could be something new you learn (be it true or false ICly), how big would it have to be in order to make you change your new plot and plans?

I guess it's as easy as asking me the same question IRL. The answer is "life". Life happens, makes changes, and suddenly plans you had don't seem to be the best idea anymore. It's a bad idea to try to steer yourself toward a goal when everything else is telling you there is something better.

Jean L · **09-22-2015, 11:29 PM**

Honestly, I'm really laid back when it comes to changing stuff. As long as people aren't forcing me to change something about my character I'm pretty open to changing plots.

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