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OttoVann · **10-08-2014, 11:56 AM**

(10-08-2014, 10:47 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: [quote='OttoVann' pid='114323' dateline='1412779524']
Interesting points Warren. I wish I had more for you m8 but maybe the only thing I can offer is...not fight Lalas? I know I wouldn't at least hand to hand. If that makes me an awful Roleplayer well...I am indeed an awful one so it wouldn't be wrong.

Warren's fought midlander (and highlander) women in the Grindstone. He doesn't strike them and just tries to disarm or knock them off balance.

I did deadlift suplex Anelia last time, though. Feel a little guilty about that.

No way m8. I don't see how I glossed over this before but you should totally hit a woman as if you would any man. At least thats my mentality. If Anelia-chan and I fought you best believe she'd hit me square in the jaw with all her power so I'm definitely going to hit her in the ribs as hard as I reasonably can if my rolls are good and I connect (or her face why not). I'd treat her as my equal and hit her with equal force know what I mean m8?

(side rant forgive me)

Kage · **10-08-2014, 11:56 AM**

The biggest issue I have is that we're applying the rules of physics as we know them (reasonably so) to a world in which... we don't know what the rules are. We don't know what the physics laws are in Hydaelyn or all of FFXIV universe.

Make this a question I'm asking in the lore thread.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **10-08-2014, 11:58 AM**

(10-08-2014, 11:39 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Alright, let's study a little scenario here.

Berrod and Example Ample the Lalafell face off in Otto's fighting ring. Both are wearing hempen shorts, fighting bareknuckled. Berrod moves to deliver a low lick from his left, lots of power. Example Ample tries to stop it. Does he:

1) Catch Berrod's leg in both hands and somehow remain firmly planted on the floor while absorbing the force of the blow?

2) Catch Berrod's leg in both hands and ends up being yanked off the floor while still holding on to Berrod's leg?

3) Block Berrod's kick with a guard and remain firmly planted on the floor after absorbing the brunt of the blow?

4) Go flying despite the guard?

---------
A few exhanges later, Berrod ends up in an unfortunate position where the Example Ample can take a clear, unarmed shot at his jaw. Example fires his fist and it connects! Does it:

1) Hit Berrod so hard that he goes toppling over, gets a broken jaw and is knocked out?

2) Hit Berrod hard enough to damage and daze him, but not enough to knock him down for the count?

3) Provide only a glancing blow that is little more than an annoyance to the larger, sturdier brawler?

4) Hurt Example Ample more than it does Berrod? His face is hard!

Which of the outcomes do you guys think are more likely, and why?

Example 1)
I would want to say 2 or 4. If we're to assume gravity works similarly in this world, the kick of a buff Highlander likely has more force than whatever a Lalafell could weigh. Even more so if it's a Highlander that actively is working out and training. Unless that Lala's gone to sumo practice or something, gravity would get in the way of defense.Â

Example 2)
2 or 3, although 1 and 4 could be possible -and hilarious- It'd come down to how coordinated the hit was and Example's skill at throwing a hit. Anyone with kids knows a five year old can hit pretty hard during a temper tantrum. If it aligned well -or didn't-, would make the difference between a good hit and a bad hit.

Enteris · **10-08-2014, 12:03 PM**

Example 1: 2 or 4

-New- Example 2: 3 or 4

To address the Brass Blade (and other) examples where lalas are sitting/standing right next to other races, wearing the same uniform and gear... I think that falls under their being nimble.

Unless I've misread somewhere, this topic isn't about their fighting prowess (with or without weapons), but rather their sheer, physical strength. Lalafell could easily gain rank and stand among the other races in the Brass Blades through physical means by doing what they do best: being short and quick. The other races would play to their strengths as well, miqo'te being stronger than lala and fairly quick as well, midlander being likely fairly well rounded, highlander/roe being the stone walls.

It's not a matter of "lala's can't fight," but rather they can't hit -as hard- as the bigger races. They earned their ranks, no doubt, but only because they adapted to being physically weaker and considerably quicker (and apparently with more endurance as well).

Sophia_Grave · **10-08-2014, 12:06 PM**

I've always went with the 'strong enough' explanation. There's plenty of Lalafell fighter NPCs in game. There wouldn't be if they weren't capable of it, right? I'd never say they were as strong as the other races; they weigh next to nothing after all. However, they must have some sort of ultra efficient muscle structure or some such that, when coupled with their size and speed, allow them to compete on some scale.

Aya · **10-08-2014, 12:20 PM**

I am with Warren in one sense: I think if you wish to play a Lalafel, but also wish to fully mitigate the physical disadvantages that come with being a Lalafel, you're kind of missing the point, and an opportunity for interesting character development.Â If you want to be as strong and quick as a Highlander, play a Highlander.Â If you want to have to rely on willpower, cleverness, and efficient use of resources and less obvious advantages, then Lalafel may provide some interesting opportunities Smile

Kinono · **10-08-2014, 12:21 PM**

I honestly don't get the hang-up. I mean, I could see it if this game were based at all on realistic fiction, but it's not. It's Final Fantasy. It's anime fantasy at the absolute best. Watching a little girl punch a huge buff dude and he rolls backwards into a wall isn't that uncommon in this genre. I understand the want for realism, but looking for it in Final Fantasy? You're gonna have a bad time.

Even then, there are so many examples of "short" strong races. Dwarves aren't always portrayed as muscle-bound, but the label nearly always removes any doubt of strength. Halfling fighters aren't unheard of. Nobody raises their eyebrows at gnome warriors.

I'm going to take a "strong Lalafell" way more seriously than I take "mary-jane whitemage" any day of the week.

Ants are super strong. Why not just think of them like big, humanoid ants.

Gaspard · **10-08-2014, 12:22 PM**

Technically, if you go by the notion of size/speed/strength/mass/weight etc, A Well trained highlander kicking a lalafell would, probably, kill it. If we really would go 100 percent by our physics, think of it as if a 1,90 Giant would fight a 4 year old kid with an old mans consciousness. You kick that kid hard enough and it wont just 'flop back', or be able to 'block it'. Chances are you will break it's hands, forearms, face, skull, w/e if you know what you're doing and you're aiming for actual damage.

At the same time..

Time to pull the argument of arguments.

[Image: 12349910481732.jpg]

The Concept of a Lalafell in itself is comedical. It's a short, scrawny, cute, puffy cheeked version of a Dwarf wobbling around. I don't really think that, in the creation of Lalafells, Physics, logic or 'plausibility' mattered. They are pretty much 'style over substance'.

Aya · **10-08-2014, 12:24 PM**

(10-08-2014, 12:21 PM)Kinono Wrote: Halfling fighters aren't unheard of. Nobody raises their eyebrows at gnome warriors.

Both are true, but they're examples that are interesting in large part for their ability to overcome deficiencies of strength and stature.Â What's being suggested here is that Lalafel do not possess such deficiencies, or else that they're thoroughly mitigated aetherically to render them moot.Â I don't think even Warren is against the idea of a "slight, but well-trained Lalafel warrior wreaking havoc upon unexpecting foes with his well trained sword-arm."Â What he is hesitant about, and I think with good reason, is the concept that every Lalafel has the strength of a Highlander (plus the quick mind of a Lalafel) buried within provided he can tap into the aether to produce it.

Warren Castille · **10-08-2014, 12:30 PM**

(10-08-2014, 12:21 PM)Kinono Wrote: I honestly don't get the hang-up. I mean, I could see it if this game were based at all on realistic fiction, but it's not. It's Final Fantasy. It's anime fantasy at the absolute best. Watching a little girl punch a huge buff dude and he rolls backwards into a wall isn't that uncommon in this genre. I understand the want for realism, but looking for it in Final Fantasy? You're gonna have a bad time.

Even then, there are so many examples of "short" strong races. Dwarves aren't always portrayed as muscle-bound, but the label nearly always removes any doubt of strength. Halfling fighters aren't unheard of. Nobody raises their eyebrows at gnome warriors.

If we weren't in a grim setting rife with trying to survive one near-apocalypse, I'd agree with you. Eorzea's a serious place, and while the comedic aside is alright from time to time, there's not a single part of the main story that's cartoonish (that isn't fetch quests).

Maybe it's my fault for being overly serious, but it's impossible for me to consider lalafell on the level of pure physical strength. Halfling fighters exist (as do their strength penalty and AC bonus due to size difference, which reflects exactly what I'm talking about here). Dwarves are short but incredibly stocky and muscular (though I'm open to seeing one where they aren't, but are strong like they are regardless if you've got a source). Gnome warriors are similar to the halfling one: Sure, you can clas into it, but you're preternaturally at a "handicap" because you're trading damage for dodge.

Calling it anime fantasy seems a little off to me. The only FF I can think of that's overtly anime-styled is FF7, and even then only AFTER the Advent Children nightmare that completely <opinions here>.

It also hurts my brain when people say physics don't apply as we know them. Everything else does, gravity does, elements do, but this one point which unravels my argument doesn't.

Kinono · **10-08-2014, 12:36 PM**

(10-08-2014, 12:24 PM)Aya Wrote: Â What he is hesitant about, and I think with good reason, is the concept that every Lalafel has the strength of a Highlander (plus the quick mind of a Lalafel) buried within provided he can tap into the aether to produce it.

Not everyone plays Lalafell as quick-witted or even smart, though! Automatically placing made-up stats on a character because of their race is akin to god-modding, to me. If I play a Roegadyn (and I do!), I should be free to make her weak but smart. People would buy that, despite her size. Same exact reaction if I play a highlander. People would more than likely find the dichotomy interesting!

Assuming personality traits to be automatically true about a character based on race in any context besides in-character is just... really, really bad!

Gaspard · **10-08-2014, 12:36 PM**

That's more or less because we have canon evidence that Physics don't apply to Lala's, case in point that 1.0 Video. We can't force our physics on things if the established lore clearly denies them in this particular subject.

Kinono · **10-08-2014, 12:40 PM**

(10-08-2014, 12:30 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: If we weren't in a grim setting rife with trying to survive one near-apocalypse, I'd agree with you. Eorzea's a serious place, and while the comedic aside is alright from time to time, there's not a single part of the main story that's cartoonish (that isn't fetch quests).

I could shoot a Garlean fortress from the dock Costa Del Sol with a handgun. That an invading force just up and plopped a major stronghold there is extremely cartoonish.

Aya · **10-08-2014, 12:40 PM**

(10-08-2014, 12:36 PM)Kinono Wrote: Assuming personality traits to be automatically true about a character based on race in any context besides in-character is just... really, really bad!

So a playful little aside is being taken as the main content of my post? Okay ^_^

I don't have anything further to add!

Warren Castille · **10-08-2014, 12:40 PM**

(10-08-2014, 12:36 PM)Kinono Wrote:
(10-08-2014, 12:24 PM)Aya Wrote: Â What he is hesitant about, and I think with good reason, is the concept that every Lalafel has the strength of a Highlander (plus the quick mind of a Lalafel) buried within provided he can tap into the aether to produce it.

Not everyone plays Lalafell as quick-witted or even smart, though! Automatically placing made-up stats on a character because of their race is akin to god-modding, to me. If I play a Roegadyn (and I do!), I should be free to make her weak but smart. People would buy that, despite her size. Same exact reaction if I play a highlander. People would more than likely find the dichotomy interesting!

Assuming personality traits to be automatically true about a character based on race in any context besides in-character is just... really, really bad!

I only wish this was what everyone did, but what you're calling "personality" traits are in fact racial traits! There's nothing wrong with expecting someone to adhere to the standards that SE's put forth regarding the stereotypes (and I don't use that word negatively, but in the sense that "all roegadyn are huge" is a sterotype).

To call again to my example earlier: Fine, lalafell work really hard and can punch just as hard as a roe can. We're wrong for assuming they shouldn't ever be able to, in fact!

How serious would you take a roegadyn who trained really, really hard to be as hard a target to hit as a lalafell? I mean outright bodily-unable-to-fight-easily-because-he's-dodging-so-good. In fact, you can only hit him in a lalafell-sized shape near his knees because he's just that good and also physics don't work as we know them so it's totally cool.

This is an impossible concept. No one would ever agree to fight it. (Universal) you picked a teensy race intentionally, you do not get to just handwave away their implied racial penalties.

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Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal.

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