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Blue · **08-02-2015, 12:03 PM**

(08-02-2015, 11:57 AM)Graeham Wrote: I think one of my biggest issues with the lack of racism within role-play is that it's all too easy for many of the playable races to literally come across as 'hyur-with-long-ears'. It's something that always rubbed me the wrong way about many blood elves back when I role-played in WoW.

I adored the race and their lore and yet the bulk of role-players ignored all that in favour of just portraying them as if they were humans adhering to real world modern day values and morality.

Discrimination (when done tastefully) adds an immense amount of depth to a character be they victim or perpetrator. I really hope that this discussion encourages more role-players to indulge!

Specifically about Hyurs and ears, it was brought to my attention that in Eorzea's settings, it's actually Hyurs (and Roes, I guess?) who are told to have "strange, short, round ears". So I think they're the ones who should get mocked at about them in this.

At least, my characters do often make comments about Hyurs' weak and weird ears, much to the IC discontent (and OOC amusement) of my Hyur friends.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **08-02-2015, 12:15 PM**

[[Takes out the mod device]]

This is gonna be the final public plea/warning to please do the following:

1) Keep the thread on topic
2) Be courteous to other posters
3) Stay level-headed or not post

Off-topic posts that could be salvaged into a thread have been moved here:
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=12801

Off-topic posts containing information on the 3.0 MSQ have been removed, with the parts that could not be clipped out being put under a spoiler tag.

Let's keep this thread alive as a discussion and on-topic. The next general round of mod-work will result in a lock.

[[]]

Flickering Ember · **08-02-2015, 12:46 PM**

(08-01-2015, 01:56 PM)tortles Wrote: The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.
Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.

It's fine if other people do it, and I wouldn't scold anyone for doing it. It's built into the lore and in most games, anyway. I find it tiring after a while, and just prefer to move on to other themes that I'm more interested in, rather than emulating something I would prefer didn't exist.

(08-01-2015, 02:05 PM)Virella Douront Wrote:
(08-01-2015, 01:56 PM)tortles Wrote: The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.
Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.
It may just be me, but I find that these type of posts indicate what I was pointing out before; the good old IC is not OOC confusion.
I ask you, if you do not feel comfortable with these themes in the setting, why does one roleplay in FFXIV and not jump to another game, setting or anything, where these topics do not come up?
It just seems strange to me to stay willingly in a setting if you can not set apart IC and OOC if these topics get onto your nerves.

I am going to have to agree with tortles on this. Plus, wanting to avoid certain themes and styles of RP is very different from mixing IC and OOC. I have roleplayed as a racist/prejudiced jerk before so I totally know how it is when people get mad at you for RPing that. However, getting messaged from a friend that "X is upset that you don't like him because you were mean to his character" is much different from "I am sorry, but I am going to bow out of this RP."

I can completely understand why some folks really don't want racism in their RP or fantasy entertainment. I often feel the same way about sexism. "Oh look, another medieval fantasy where women are bargaining chips and breeders. How....original?" So just because it's a fantasy you have to shoehorn sexism in somewhere to a magical place that isn't earth nor has any of earth's history? Well, okay then. So I can empathize with tortles on this.Â

Plus, it's actually really refreshing to not have to deal with these themes in RP as they are certainly much overused.Â

Aside from that though, I think folks are really reaching for how much racism there is in this game. There are certainly prejudices, but not really that much in the form of racism. There is a little bit of racism and sexism on a subtle level that is similar to what we experience irl. (All of the Syndicate in a melting pot city being lalafell, most races/clans practicing patriarchal lineages)

The two areas being mentioned are Gridania and Ishgard. Gridania has really been toned down since 1.0, I hear. Ishgard is not necessarily racist but classist and xenophobic. (Note, there is a difference between racism and xenophobia.)

IfÂ Gridania and Ishgard are meant to be racist, or any other city-states for that matter, then I am going to just have to flat out say that Square Enix does not do a good job of it showing it.Â

I've seen a lot of other former WoW-players around here so I am going to use a WoW example. In WoW, there was racism all the time due to many of the playable races not getting along. The lore of the game gave you lots of fodder if you wanted to play a racist jerk. Orcs and goblins destroying your forest? Weird, reclusive aliens bringing a race of demons to your planet that inevitably corrupts and destroys it? Attempted genocide? Multiple wars? A vast array of races that both look different but have extremely varying customs as well?Â

Outside of WoW, I've also been in TOR and GW2, both of which show racism more effectively than FFXIV does. (Twi'leks, charr)

I have been roleplaying in this game working on 2 years now and I couldn't tell you a specific example of how Gridania is racist outside of the Elementals not healing a group of Ala Mhigans. I know there must be more to it than that but the fact I have been in this game for that long and still don't know a single example, says something. All of the playable races look very similar with most blending together in cities and sharing the same customs. (IMO, city miqo'te are the norm, not the exception) No recent wars aside from with Garlemald that I am aware of. This is where I go back to "there is not much fodder to play a racist jerk" with.Â

"Show, don't tell."
Until then, I'm of the mindset that racism in Eorzea is subdued at best.

Naunet · **08-02-2015, 01:06 PM**

(08-02-2015, 12:46 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: I have been roleplaying in this game working on 2 years now and I couldn't tell you a specific example of how Gridania is racist outside of the Elementals not healing a group of Ala Mhigans.

Duskwight elezen are not treated well at all in Gridania, something scene in both the lancer quest and in idle NPC interaction in the city.

That said, I agree that if someone doesn't want to RP a racist... okay? It's not like every Wildwood character has to be derisive of Duskwights. I'm not entirely sure why people are getting so up in arms against people who don't feel like RPing a character that utilizes a completely optional aspect of the world.

Flickering Ember · **08-02-2015, 01:30 PM**

(08-02-2015, 03:14 AM)Graeham Wrote: I wonder how much of this has to do with role-players being prone to escapism? There's no easy way to state this without being controversial but if there's one thing I've realised during my time playing numerous MMO's it's that a lot of the players who flock to them - particularly within the role-playing community - use role-play as a means of escapism.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing though it can and does sometimes go too far - especially when there's implications that someone is 'racist' or 'bad' in the real world because they happen to play a character who isn't politically correct.

We also live in a society that is currently going through a phase where if somebody doesn't like something then they can (and often do) kick and scream about being 'triggered' or 'offended' by it to the point where things end up getting censored and/or changed to avoid bad PR and to appease vocal individuals delicate sensibilities.

I'm not saying that this is what is going on within this thread but it's interesting to discuss and may explain why, in turn, people aren't all that keen on the idea of such themes being ignored, mitigated or shunned altogether.

If someone is 'triggered' by mature themes then it may be for the best that they avoid investing in stuff like The Witcher, Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead. They're also quite clearly labelled as having 'mature themes' (at least here in England) and the same can be said of FFXIV as far as I can tell.

Otherwise, where do we draw the line? If you cut 'racism' out of The Witcher, Game of Thrones or FFXIV then entire sub-plots and important characters would need to be completely rewritten. It serves only to limit creativity and in turn lead to stories becoming very bland.

Again, nobody is obligated to do anything they don't wish to do - and from what I can tell the OP isn't trying to demand that anybody does anything they don't want to do. Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but he seems to simply want to incite and interesting debate about a particular aspect of Eorzean society that isn't well represented within role-play.

Oh, I absolutely do use roleplay as a form of escapism. That's not to say that I don't also do it for fun and it's not a 100% conscious decision anyway. I will shamelessly admit, though, that I do happily get escapism from roleplaying. Though, it's really a lot more complex than not wanting to deal with certain themes. RP-wise, I am actually pretty open about what or who I RP with. It's my outlook on the RP and settings that change, especially since lore is mostly interpretative and not as objective as folks think it is.

I would not use FFXIV as a comparison though, to things like Game of Thrones and The Witcher. FFXIV is pretty clean, like Guild Wars 2 level of clean. Mind you, I haven't beaten HW content yet, but the story hasn't seemed as dark as folks have been claiming it to be?
I love gritty stuff like Game of Thrones though because it does not attempt to excuse or glorify these themes. It outright villainizes them.

If a fantasy introduces racist/sexist elements and then sweeps them under the rug where they don't hold much importance to the story or world, other than to just exist--that is when I get disgruntled.Â

I definitely understand the call to arms for more people to RP as racists. I understand the want to have RP match more closely to the lore. I was actually going to respond to your post in the previous thread about mixed fantasy races.

It's just...for me personally...the game lore does a pretty poor job of giving good reasons to be a IC racist. (See my previous post in this thread for a fantasy world that does quite well in excelling at this--Warcraft)

Flickering Ember · **08-02-2015, 01:38 PM**

(08-02-2015, 01:06 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-02-2015, 12:46 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: I have been roleplaying in this game working on 2 years now and I couldn't tell you a specific example of how Gridania is racist outside of the Elementals not healing a group of Ala Mhigans.

Duskwight elezen are not treated well at all in Gridania, something scene in both the lancer quest and in idle NPC interaction in the city.

That said, I agree that if someone doesn't want to RP a racist... okay? It's not like every Wildwood character has to be derisive of Duskwights. I'm not entirely sure why people are getting so up in arms against people who don't feel like RPing a character that utilizes a completely optional aspect of the world.

Oh, I wasn't doubting that there were examples I missed. And in hindsight, I am sad I forgot about the Duskwights. (Though I still don't even know why they are persecuted against to begin with?) What I mean is that it should be absolutely clear and not hidden in any way that there is racism in Eorzea. (But it seems they do this for most of their lore too, meh) As a player, I find this extremely irritating. The fact that I completely forgot about Duskwights to begin with shows there is a problem with SE's world building.

It's the equivalent of....if Harry Potter were to "establish there is prejudice against muggles" and then never go into further detail or show it being an issue.

FreelanceWizard · **08-02-2015, 01:45 PM**

(08-02-2015, 01:30 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: It's just...for me personally...the game lore does a pretty poor job of giving good reasons to be a IC racist. (See my previous post in this thread for a fantasy world that does quite well in excelling at this--Warcraft)

Part of the problem is that, outside of Gridania's well-known dislike for keepers (poachers) and duskwights (knaves and thieves), and Ishgard's well-known nationalism that tends to appear as racist, we don't see a whole lot in the city-states. That's because, I speculate, the city-states are the cosmopolitan melting pots, given all the adventurers that live and work there. Fernehalwes's already noted that adventurers are a more open-minded, educated lot as a whole, and RL history will tell you that people tend to eventually habituate to "others" when they live in the same place long enough. The most accepting places around are likely those adventurer towns, Revenant's Toll (home the adventurers' guild) and Idyllshire.

Personally, I view the city-states as a lot like, say, Gangs of New York in feel. There's some awful bigotry and a fair amount of prejudice (duskwights are thieves, seekers are whores, lalafell are rich bastards, roegadyn are dumb cutthroats, etc.), but you don't usually have blood in the streets.

Usually.

The further away you get from the city-states, the less you have sneering pronouncements and the more you have outright, explicit, sometimes violent racism. Eorzea's a pretty dangerous place, though, so sometimes you have to band together with those you hate so that the big morbol doesn't eat you all. That probably makes exile the more likely consequence for getting on the ugly side of racism (as we see in the WP HM unlock quest line).

So what does this mean for a character? If you're an adventurer, I'd argue you have a lot of reasons to not be particularly racist. You're exposed to lots of different people and cultures, which tends to blunt prejudices. You also have lots of reasons you might be, including family history, hundreds if not thousands of years of culture, dislike of refugees trying to Take Your Jobs, or simply thinking those short, round ears are just plain gross. If you're not an adventurer, you're probably more likely to be racist, but who knows? Maybe you think other races are cute. Maybe a duskwight adventurer saved your life.

The long and short of it, IMO, is that the setting is open enough for people to put as much or as little prejudice in their characters as they like.

Flashhelix · **08-02-2015, 02:01 PM**

(08-02-2015, 01:45 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(08-02-2015, 01:30 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: It's just...for me personally...the game lore does a pretty poor job of giving good reasons to be a IC racist. (See my previous post in this thread for a fantasy world that does quite well in excelling at this--Warcraft)

Part of the problem is that, outside of Gridania's well-known dislike for keepers (poachers) and duskwights (knaves and thieves), and Ishgard's well-known nationalism that tends to appear as racist, we don't see a whole lot in the city-states. That's because, I speculate, the city-states are the cosmopolitan melting pots, given all the adventurers that live and work there. Fernehalwes's already noted that adventurers are a more open-minded, educated lot as a whole, and RL history will tell you that people tend to eventually habituate to "others" when they live in the same place long enough. The most accepting places around are likely those adventurer towns, Revenant's Toll (home the adventurers' guild) and Idyllshire.

Personally, I view the city-states as a lot like, say, Gangs of New York in feel. There's some awful bigotry and a fair amount of prejudice (duskwights are thieves, seekers are whores, lalafell are rich bastards, roegadyn are dumb cutthroats, etc.), but you don't usually have blood in the streets.

Usually.

The further away you get from the city-states, the less you have sneering pronouncements and the more you have outright, explicit, sometimes violent racism. Eorzea's a pretty dangerous place, though, so sometimes you have to band together with those you hate so that the big morbol doesn't eat you all. That probably makes exile the more likely consequence for getting on the ugly side of racism (as we see in the WP HM unlock quest line).

So what does this mean for a character? If you're an adventurer, I'd argue you have a lot of reasons to not be particularly racist. You're exposed to lots of different people and cultures, which tends to blunt prejudices. You also have lots of reasons you might be, including family history, hundreds if not thousands of years of culture, dislike of refugees trying to Take Your Jobs, or simply thinking those short, round ears are just plain gross. If you're not an adventurer, you're probably more likely to be racist, but who knows? Maybe you think other races are cute. Maybe a duskwight adventurer saved your life.

The long and short of it, IMO, is that the setting is open enough for people to put as much or as little prejudice in their characters as they like.

^This whole post. Nobody's saying playing a non-racist character is impossible. It's just as possible as playing a racist character. One of the cruxes of Idyllshire quests is the lack of prejudice and how everybody gets along. It's the same reason the Doman refugees settled down in Mor Dhona.

Caspar · **08-02-2015, 02:10 PM**

Again, the problem with this sort of discussion is that there is no reason why the majority of rpers need to play that element of the setting. It is not "avoiding the setting" or refusing to play in it as some people in the thread have said, and I question whether that even has value to the discussion at all. Just because the majority of rp characters are not racist does not mean that in fact they are arguing by their very refusal to rp racism that there is none in setting. I think the whole "it's fine if you want to play that, I just won't play with you," is too often being used as an excuse to shame players for playing differently. If you write a character, and find there is no room for Eorzean xenophobia, it is what it is. Granted, I can understand being disappointed if not many pcs discriminate against yours, and you want it to happen. (I do too.) The player base can be considered to be a small portion of the actual in setting population, with the rest of the setting being less accepting. That said, I still believe the xenophobia is being overstated, and that this is another instance of "gritty" rpers taking their own perception of the setting as canon, much as they do with politics and combat physics. It sounds pretty vague to me, and I disagree that the previously linked dev post argued that Eorzea was either a melting pot or a racist hive of lynching and hatred. It only argued that virulent racism does exist in every culture in the setting, and may be something you have to deal with when getting friendly with someone who is an "other." The races interact with one another every day in this world, and every race is present in every region, even if not equally dominant. They have to be able to put on a polite face to hide their disdain for one another, at the very least, so they can work together. And don't forget, the universal adversary of Garlemald tends to distract people from old hatreds, while directing it with extreme force in another direction.

Kellach Woods · **08-02-2015, 02:33 PM**

also i'd wager adventurers would be the least racist of all because they actively depend on others for their living. it's hard to shit on others when you need their gil.

and a good portion play adventurers.

Flickering Ember · **08-02-2015, 02:34 PM**

Hm. I am going to make a bullet point post to sum up my points. Admittedly, I kinda feel like the points in my previous posts might be hard to understand.

Issue 1: The game writers take a "Tell" instead of "Show" stance to their in game lore.Â

1. Sin linked a very informative post from the writers that tells us how the world is supposed to be. A lot of Koji Fox's words, in my opinion, clash harshly from what we see in game. (I would never in a million years have gotten the vibe that all these different races hang out with each other but dislike each other?

2. There are a couple of side quests that deal with racism, as well as some ambient dialogues from NPCs. Both of these are extremely easy to miss and I have never come across any of these examples.

3. "Eorzea is a terrible place to live." There are implications in this thread that Eorzea is dangerous and harsh. I don't see how FFXIV is even the tiniest bit of a gritty fantasy though. (See: Berserk and Attack on Titan for comparisons) City states, and the world as a whole for that matter, are clean and pretty. We see mixed races regularly not only getting along, but befriending each other, in the majority of quests available to us in FFXIV. Suffering is implied, rather than shown. (If Eorzea is so dangerous, why don't we see more people dying during quests?)

Conclusion: More roleplayers don't acknowledge racism in their RP because it just isn't obvious. Point 1 requires you to look for sources outside the game. Point 2 are obscure sources in game that are hard to find. Point 3 shows how certain lore elements in game conflict with the idea of suffering and racism being widespread.

Therefore: Presumably, few people RP these elements because they are simply not known.

Issue 2: Some people don't like RPing elements of racism

1. This has nothing to do with mixing IC and OOC. Folks who don't want to RP racism aren't getting personally insulted over it, they just don't enjoy those themes. I don't force my friends and family who dislike horror movies to sit down and watch a horror movie and then explain: "Why do you dislike horror movies? It's not like this is happening to real people. It's not like it's happening to you."

2. It's honestly pretty over done with most fantasy universes already featuring it in spades. Some folks actually find races getting along to be more interesting than racism because we almost never get to see it. Strife may be an essential part of story-telling and RP but it can be gained elsewhere.

3. Way more examples of races positively interacting each other on a friendship based level, not just 'tolerating' each other like Koji Fox's post states. This conflict in what we see in lore gives those people who don't want to RP elements of racism equally valid reasons to not RP racists.

Conclusion: Racism is not an integral experience to FFXIV. It is there. How common it is is debatable, given Issue 1. As Freelance states above, there is strong merit to go either way with your RP. Plenty of wiggle room to RP a racist or to not RP a racist. If you choose to not RP a racist, you are not writing an unbelievable RP character. Additionally, people can RP what they want and shouldn't be accused of mixing IC and OOC for it. I have little desire to RP the MSQ or ERP or any number of themes (see: Warren's post on page #2). You can RP those things. I won't think less of you for it. Let's respect each other's likes and dislikes and acknowledge that we don't have to RP with each other if we don't get along.

Flickering Ember · **08-02-2015, 02:42 PM**

(08-02-2015, 02:10 PM)Caspar Wrote: Again, the problem with this sort of discussion is that there is no reason why the majority of rpers need to play that element of the setting. It is not "avoiding the setting" or refusing to play in it as some people in the thread have said, and I question whether that even has value to the discussion at all. Just because the majority of rp characters are not racist does not mean that in fact they are arguing by their very refusal to rp racism that there is none in setting. I think the whole "it's fine if you want to play that, I just won't play with you," is too often being used as an excuse to shame players for playing differently. If you write a character, and find there is no room for Eorzean xenophobia, it is what it is. Granted, I can understand being disappointed if not many pcs discriminate against yours, and you want it to happen. (I do too.) The player base can be considered to be a small portion of the actual in setting population, with the rest of the setting being less accepting. That said, I still believe the xenophobia is being overstated, and that this is another instance of "gritty" rpers taking their own perception of the setting as canon, much as they do with politics and combat physics. It sounds pretty vague to me, and I disagree that the previously linked dev post argued that Eorzea was either a melting pot or a racist hive of lynching and hatred. It only argued that virulent racism does exist in every culture in the setting, and may be something you have to deal with when getting friendly with someone who is an "other." The races interact with one another every day in this world, and every race is present in every region, even if not equally dominant. They have to be able to put on a polite face to hide their disdain for one another, at the very least, so they can work together. And don't forget, the universal adversary of Garlemald tends to distract people from old hatreds, while directing it with extreme force in another direction.

I am just going to quote this for emphasis. I truly and 100% agree with every word spoken in this post. Virara makes some amazing points that I have thought myself but never had the guts to say in a thread before.

Yssen · **08-02-2015, 03:24 PM**

It is worth pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a miqo as far as this issue goes. People can be justifiably uncomfortable with portraying a character's possible racism and prejudice, but it is also equally possible to portray the effects of racism and prejudice on your own character. The world is not filled with only PCs and their actions, and it is probably easier to explore this particular topic by expanding on how NPCs treat your character, rather than expecting everyone to be okay with portraying it with their characters. Discussing personal examples of prejudice and discrimination your character has faced ICly, as well as portraying how incidents of the same have affected your character's attitudes/behavior are probably easier ways to explore this subject. Heck, probably the best way to explore most touchy subjects. Yar.

Blue · **08-02-2015, 03:28 PM**

(08-02-2015, 03:24 PM)Yssen Wrote: It is worth pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a miqo as far as this issue goes. People can be justifiably uncomfortable with portraying a character's possible racism and prejudice, but it is also equally possible to portray the effects of racism and prejudice on your own character. The world is not filled with only PCs and their actions, and it is probably easier to explore this particular topic by expanding on how NPCs treat your character, rather than expecting everyone to be okay with portraying it with their characters. Discussing personal examples of prejudice and discrimination your character has faced ICly, as well as portraying how incidents of the same have affected your character's attitudes/behavior are probably easier ways to explore this subject. Heck, probably the best way to explore most touchy subjects. Yar.

Yeah, it's what I've been doing with the characters I want to be discriminated so far. It just gets depressing when, as I ICly discuss this with some other RPer, I get the "Oh, I'd never do that!/I've never seen that happen around here!" rigmarole. Especially as I try to portrait my Au Ra getting discriminated and unable to find a job or roof to stay at, it's a bitter spoonful to be ICly told that everything is merry and happy. The extensive amount of mixed couples who openly exhibit affection in public is just another version of that, as well. There's sooo many of them.

Nadine Marteau · **08-02-2015, 03:28 PM**

I was struggling to think if I should reply to this thread because I was worried I was going to go off on an angry tangent. The original post here is framed in a way that is pretty presumptuous about people's politics. I'm not even going to get into the statement that most of the internet is "liberal". Moreover, there is the stated notion that prejudice is a "conservative" notion. That's frustratingly simplistic and naive. I don't want to start a huge argument over this, but trying to frame this argument while drawing comparison to modern politics (modern western-centered politics, at that) is a recipe for disaster.

Anyway, on to the subject at hand. Eorzea as a setting is full of bigotry, hatred, and hardship. These things exist and are very real. They do in fact tend to be the norm, for varying reasons depending on the specific instance in question.Â Should this necessarily be reflected in people's characters? No, not necessarily. Adventurers are often defiant of norms. That said, I feel the darkness of the setting should not be ignored.

So perhaps your Ishgardian isn't especially wary around the Au Ra, or perhaps your character feels the mistrust of Duskwight is wrong. That is perfectly fine. However, as a writer one should ask "why?". What makes this character different? What about their experiences or beliefs causes this deviation from the norm? This can help build a further understanding of your character and make them more alive.

Similarly, players of commonly persecuted characters should consider that public opinion may well be against them. Perhaps your Duskwight is becoming rather prominent within the Conjurer's guild. Is she making any rivals? Are the common folk rallying against her promotion?Â These sorts of things can also enrich a character and their ongoing experience. These are not, of course, mandatory, but it can exist to add some conflict to a story that might otherwise not be there.

In closing, prejudice certainly exists and there are cultural norms. A player need not necessarily have their character embrace them, but should be aware of them and may wish to think about the role they play in their life.

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