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KitKat · **02-21-2014, 08:24 AM**

If this game is so terrible, why do you people keep logging in to play it?

No Longer Exists · **02-21-2014, 09:01 AM**

Bring the gloves up, people! (That's boxing talk for remember the rules of engagement!) Let's not attack each other, the conversation's been pretty amazing thus far and everyone has lots of good ideas/input. Some tensions seem to running high, so let's try to remember that this is a community. We're all friends here (relatively speaking).

Cheers!

-Black Hat

synaesthetic · **02-21-2014, 05:40 PM**

(02-21-2014, 08:24 AM)TheCurls Wrote: If this game is so terrible, why do you people keep logging in to play it?

I get asked this question a lot when I criticize game design. I'll answer your question with another question: Why would I bother trying to convey all of this to the developers if I didn't care about the game?

The game isn't terrible and I enjoy it quite a lot. I'm not complaining because it's terrible and not worth playing; I'm complaining because I know the developers can do better and I want to push them to try harder and be more awesome.

As customers, we have a responsibility to make sure companies stay on their toes and don't get complacent. We have to stay smart and informed and let them know when we don't feel like we're getting our money's worth.

I really like FFXIV and I really want this game to do well. To that end, when I feel that the developers are doing something that boggles the mind and defies any known form of common sense, I willÂ call them out on it. To that end, if I feel the developers need to add or adjust something to make the game better, I will let them know.

KitKat · **02-21-2014, 11:23 PM**

(02-21-2014, 05:40 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:
(02-21-2014, 08:24 AM)TheCurls Wrote: If this game is so terrible, why do you people keep logging in to play it?

I get asked this question a lot when I criticize game design. I'll answer your question with another question: Why would I bother trying to convey all of this to the developers if I didn't care about the game?

The game isn't terrible and I enjoy it quite a lot. I'm not complaining because it's terrible and not worth playing; I'm complaining because I know the developers can do better and I want to push them to try harder and be more awesome.

As customers, we have a responsibility to make sure companies stay on their toes and don't get complacent. We have to stay smart and informed and let them know when we don't feel like we're getting our money's worth.

I really like FFXIV and I really want this game to do well. To that end, when I feel that the developers are doing something that boggles the mind and defies any known form of common sense, I willÂ call them out on it. To that end, if I feel the developers need to add or adjust something to make the game better, I will let them know.

I suspect you get asked the question a lot because you do an awful lot of complaining about the game and not very much praising it.

Ildur · **02-22-2014, 02:32 PM**

You say that as if there was as much praising to be done as there is complaining. The reason for the disparity is that praising only gets you a smug and complacent developer who will not improve his projects because they are "good enough". You don't praise the developer when there's so much to improve.
It is akin to praising a rocket engineer because the tip of his rocket is very nice, even though he forgot to put a working engine on it. You don't do that until he fixes the main mistakes.

And there's also a difference between plain old complaining and constructive criticism. One is as useless as praise; the other gives the developers a base to improve upon.

UltraFennec · **02-22-2014, 05:32 PM**

Making sure the devs know you actually like the product and aren't just bitching because ya hate it is kinda important too though. The former tends to make people more amenable to listening to the criticism, the latter gets people ignored.

synaesthetic · **02-22-2014, 05:38 PM**

I'm a writer. When I ask someone to read something I've written, whether it's a story or an essay or the novel I'm currently in the process of writing, I always ask for feedback.

What I want to hear is what's wrong with it. I don't want to hear about what's right with it--well, not really, anyway. You can tell me that a particular part or passage is good, but that's all you need to say. I would rather know what is problematic and what needs to be fixed.

My goal in writing is to write the best narrative I can possibly write. I rely heavily upon critical feedback from readers and my editor to tell me what needs to be improved, adjusted, removed or rewritten. These are the things I can't necessarily see myself due to personal bias; of course I'm going to assume my own writing is better than it actually is. That's human nature. I will always feel good when people praise my work as being impressive or innovative or otherwise standing out in a good way, but that's not useful for making sure my writing is the best it can possibly be.

Likewise, developers of any creative product (for example, this game) will always see their own work in a more favorable light. They need critical feedback from outside sources in order to make sure that their product is the best it can be. In a product like FFXIV, this will always be at odds with the profit motive, because improving the game costs money, and they will be expected to balance improvements with return on investmentÂ (ROI). Will these improvements make more money than they use up? That's what developers are always being asked by publishers.

Customers can affect the ROI of decisions made by design teams by being hard to please. It may seem like I'm ungrateful, and I'll let you in on a secret: I am ungrateful. Final Fantasy XIV is not a gift. I am not receiving it freely from Square-Enix. It is a productÂ that I pay for. Gratitude is not only unnecessary but completely irrelevant and inapplicable.

I am not grateful for anything a business does. This is a transaction. They are providing a product and service in exchange for remuneration. If their product and service fill my needs, and the negatives are outweighed by the positives, then I will continue to pay them. However, this doesn't mean I will not let them know what those negatives are.Â

I will continue to push Square-Enix to produce a superior product. If they listen to me, then I will be far more likely and willing to spend money on their products. If they don't, then I will be less likely to do so. If the negatives outpace the positives, then I will likely stop doing business with them entirely.

synaesthetic · **02-22-2014, 05:39 PM**

(02-22-2014, 05:32 PM)UltraFennec Wrote: Making sure the devs know you actually like the product and aren't just bitching because ya hate it is kinda important too though. The former tends to make people more amenable to listening to the criticism, the latter gets people ignored.

Why do I need to tell them I like the product? Doesn't my money tell them that already? If I didn't like it at all, why would I be paying for it?

This argument makes no sense whatsoever.

KitKat · **02-22-2014, 09:10 PM**

The problem isn't this so-called constructive criticism (I'd argue that putting the developers down like they're idiots is anything but constructive), it's the forum you use to "criticize". SE isn't reading these forums. SE isn't reading the in game chat for suggestions.

Naunet · **02-22-2014, 09:52 PM**

People need to chill out and probably get back on topic. >_>

I'm still with the person earlier in the thread who thinks SE has painted themselves into a corner with how they've designed the class-->job flow system. IMO, the whole concept of class vs job needs to be scrapped. Doesn't mean you have to remove the differences thematically as you level, but it would be a lot easier on SE if they could change abilities within a class for the to-be two specialties. The current system is a relic of 1.0 and as much as people might cling to it for novelty, it's unnecessarily unweildly and restrictive when it comes to design.

Asgarn · **02-22-2014, 10:05 PM**

(02-22-2014, 09:52 PM)Naunet Wrote: People need to chill out and probably get back on topic. >_>

I'm still with the person earlier in the thread who thinks SE has painted themselves into a corner with how they've designed the class-->job flow system. IMO, the whole concept of class vs job needs to be scrapped. Doesn't mean you have to remove the differences thematically as you level, but it would be a lot easier on SE if they could change abilities within a class for the to-be two specialties. The current system is a relic of 1.0 and as much as people might cling to it for novelty, it's unnecessarily unweildly and restrictive when it comes to design.

Seconded. Puff puff peace pipe?Â Moogle

synaesthetic · **02-23-2014, 03:06 AM**

(02-22-2014, 09:10 PM)TheCurls Wrote: The problem isn't this so-called constructive criticism (I'd argue that putting the developers down like they're idiots is anything but constructive), it's the forum you use to "criticize". SE isn't reading these forums. SE isn't reading the in game chat for suggestions.

Yeah, unfortunately they decided to permaban me for politely disagreeing with someone. I just discuss some of what I send them here, but I email SE quite often with my feedback. Whether it goes to anyone important I don't know, but I'd be remiss in my duties as an informed consumer if I didn't offer it.

Seriphyn · **02-23-2014, 07:03 PM**

I don't really understand why you need Advanced Jobs...what's the point of classes, then?

You might as well just start with jobs, in which case...but there must be something I'm missing? I would prefer to see every class have two jobs, and leave it at that.

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