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Freyar · **10-10-2010, 08:41 AM**

This is really meant as a general warning. I've been watching and listening in the various makets (primarily the Gridanian Ebon and Rosewood stalls) and have noticed a trend of people stealing cash and materials from others that are looking to get work done.

Here's how it happens:

Party A seeks an Armorsmith to make a suit of chainmail.
Armorsmith responds, offers his services for a fee + material components.
Party A trades materials and gil to Armorsmith.
Armorsmith either finishes the job, botches it, or makes an HQ item.[/list:u]

If the synth succeeds, the Armorsmith in the case of a scam simply states he will sell it himself to whoever pays his asking price via his Bazaar. If the synth fails, the Amorsmith makes no attempts to reconcile losses (though admittedly, there is no real unwritten "norm" for the community as of yet). If the synth generates an HQ result, the Armorsmith tries to extort additional fees for the quality of the item, or sells it via his Bazaar at his asking price.
-------

Either way, a number of these are becoming problematic as the more unscrupulous are using the system to try and get away with materials and fees, or in some cases just the materials themselves.

Here's what you can do to reduce losses due to theft like this:
- Buy finished pieces in the market or bazaars.
  - Yes, it is a pain to buy from the Market Wards as they are now, but this is the absolutely safest way to get what you want.[/list:u]
  - Work with your linkshell, a reputable linkshell (in the case of the RPC and Besaid), or a trustworthy friend for specific synth attempts.
    - Make sure you spell out what should happen in the case of a synth failure to prevent any future disagreements on how to proceed when that happens. (Yes, when.. not if.)[/list:u][/list:u]
      
      I am currently un-aware of SE's position on the more seedy behaviors. While I am an EvE veteran, I don't think FFXIV is the kind of game to support this kind of vehavior.

Ceadol · **10-10-2010, 11:20 AM**

If this happens to any of us, I think we should keep a list of scammers in order to protect our community. A consolidated list of Blacklisted names here or somewhere on these forums to let people know who to avoid and who is likely to rip you off.

Asyria · **10-10-2010, 11:43 AM**

This will always happen.
As I crafter, what I do is I make the time first, then exchange it for payment.
I generally only take mats from friends to make stuff with, not strangers, because with friends, if I fail, we can always get to an arrangement. I only stuff I already made or know without a doubt I can make for strangers.

Now the HQ item issue... there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with asking a significantly higher price. It IS significantly better and so is worth more. No scam there.
However!
The crafter, in all fairness, should always offer the option of making another item, without getting that Quality too high (Rapid spam) and sell it at the originally agreed price.

As for a scammer list... Meh, go for it if you want.
I personally don't care. Half of it would end up being slander and rumors sooner or later. I prefer to simply trade completed items for payment in one trade, it's pretty scam-proof.
If I am to give mats for someone to craft something with, I'll seek friends/shell-mates.

Trizzip · **10-10-2010, 11:48 AM**

In XI, anytime a got a hold of a crafter, all they would want is for me to buy the ingredients. If it HQ'd, I wouldn't get charged more. Even if it was a NQ, the crafter wouldn't ever ask for gil, however, I did always tip my crafters for the time they took to help me out.

Asyria · **10-10-2010, 11:50 AM**

Brin Ahlrine Wrote:In XI, anytime a got a hold of a crafter, all they would want is for me to buy the ingredients. If it HQ'd, I wouldn't get charged more. Even if it was a NQ, the crafter wouldn't ever ask for gil, however, I did always tip my crafters for the time they took to help me out.

That works if you have all the mats and only want something made with them.

A LOT of the transactions in FF XIV so far however are more on the "Buy [item] for gil" type.

Nira Muzyka · **10-10-2010, 12:01 PM**

Asyria, in all fairness, if it's using your mats, not the crafter's, then the crafter is completely in the wrong to try to bring up the price for the product you commissioned them to make, if it's with their mats, they can feel free to charge what they want, that's not the issue at hand though, the issue is if they are utilizing your mats to make something you commissioned them to make, there is absolutely everything wrong with going back on a trade agreement and taking someone else's money and materials and then trying to make them pay more for you basically getting lucky while crafting.

EDIT: Freyar, unless you paid them before hand, the loss would simply be the mats, in which case, it sucks, but you took the risk knowing the synth could fail, it's the same as doing it yourself, only difference being that if it succeeds you pay the person crafting it for you.

Volkai · **10-10-2010, 01:19 PM**

I'm pretty sure scamming is a violation of ToS and therefore merits a GM Call.

Chveya · **10-10-2010, 03:03 PM**

It is absolutely super important to have it in writing what is to be done in the event of a fail. Hell, it's super important just to have in writing the terms of the commission at all.

P1: So I give you mats + 5k, and you make <insert armor here> for me. Right?
P2: Right!

It's sort of annoying to do this every time, but -- and I know SE isn't Blizzard -- but in Blizz's case, spelling things out like this was often the only way to ensure there'd been a scam, and not just someone later regretting a gift. Considering you had to approve your trade request twice, it was pretty hard to later claim "Oh, I didn't mean to give them that much money / that many items / all of that!" but people did it, and it turned into big old he said - she said fights.

So spell it out, get it in writing, discuss what happens if the synth fails, and make sure the other person responds fully. TELL them why you're emphasizing it, if you must. If they suddenly balk, you probably didn't want to work with them anyway. If they're honest and decent people, they'll understand.

This gives you a leg to stand on if you need to go to SE and claim that someone stole your stuff.

Zeah · **10-10-2010, 04:03 PM**

Pretty much exactly what Chveya said.

I haven't had the chance to mingle in any crafting trade. I'm taking the game rather slow, honestly, so all I've been doing is leves when it comes to crafting. For the blacklist thing... It could be helpful, but there was something similar to that back in FFXI..it was a lot of rumors and you didn't know what was truth or lie from that.

For myself, I don't think I'll bother with handing over mats to make an item.. I'd rather dish out the money for a completed one. It's safer and I don't risk my mats being destroyed, or stolen, in this case. Also I don't like bartering with people. It's petty and I most often fold anyway. So likely if I ever ran into a scammer it would cost me a headache and a half and a lot more gil than I would have ended up paying if i had just bought the damn item from that bazaar a second ago lol.

Freyar · **10-10-2010, 05:11 PM**

Asyria Wrote:As I crafter, what I do is I make the time first, then exchange it for payment.

The problem here is that the materials themselves can have a high value anyway, even moreso if the end-item is something the scammer wants or could use on his main combat discipline.

Quote:
Quote:Now the HQ item issue... there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with asking a significantly higher price. It IS significantly better and so is worth more. No scam there.
However!
The crafter, in all fairness, should always offer the option of making another item, without getting that Quality too high (Rapid spam) and sell it at the originally agreed price.
Asyria, in all fairness, if it's using your mats, not the crafter's, then the crafter is completely in the wrong to try to bring up the price for the product you commissioned them to make, if it's with their mats, they can feel free to charge what they want, that's not the issue at hand though, the issue is if they are utilizing your mats to make something you commissioned them to make, there is absolutely everything wrong with going back on a trade agreement and taking someone else's money and materials and then trying to make them pay more for you basically getting lucky while crafting.

Consider it like this. You do an outstanding job at creating an item, someone will come back to you for custom. HQ results aren't just a random chance, they are directly effected by HOW a crafter does the synth and therefore it is inappropriate (in my eyes) to turn around and extort the situation for more gil.

Quote:I personally don't care. Half of it would end up being slander and rumors sooner or later. I prefer to simply trade completed items for payment in one trade, it's pretty scam-proof.
If I am to give mats for someone to craft something with, I'll seek friends/shell-mates.

I'm not sure if a list is a good idea either.

Nira Muzyka Wrote:EDIT: Freyar, unless you paid them before hand, the loss would simply be the mats, in which case, it sucks, but you took the risk knowing the synth could fail, it's the same as doing it yourself, only difference being that if it succeeds you pay the person crafting it for you.

While true, the loss of materials to scammers is an unnecessary loss. I can understand a failed synth, I've had it happen twice while getting myself pushed up the weapon chain in THM, which not only used my mats, but my mainhand as well. A linkshell member did it so it was absolutely no big deal, though.

In terms of business, the loss of these materials can result in a significant loss of time and gil in the long run, and will only become worse as more people pick up this trade.

Nira Muzyka · **10-10-2010, 05:22 PM**

Freyar Wrote:
Asyria Wrote:As I crafter, what I do is I make the time first, then exchange it for payment.
Quote:
Quote:Now the HQ item issue... there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with asking a significantly higher price. It IS significantly better and so is worth more. No scam there.
However!
The crafter, in all fairness, should always offer the option of making another item, without getting that Quality too high (Rapid spam) and sell it at the originally agreed price.
Asyria, in all fairness, if it's using your mats, not the crafter's, then the crafter is completely in the wrong to try to bring up the price for the product you commissioned them to make, if it's with their mats, they can feel free to charge what they want, that's not the issue at hand though, the issue is if they are utilizing your mats to make something you commissioned them to make, there is absolutely everything wrong with going back on a trade agreement and taking someone else's money and materials and then trying to make them pay more for you basically getting lucky while crafting.

Consider it like this. You do an outstanding job at creating an item, someone will come back to you for custom. HQ results aren't just a random chance, they are directly effected by HOW a crafter does the synth and therefore it is inappropriate (in my eyes) to turn around and extort the situation for more gil.

Was this aimed at me or Asyria? As maybe I wasn't clear enough, I said that the crafter has no right to increase the price simply because he got lucky enough to instead of blowing it up, craft it as a higher quality(though this becomes less and less chancy the higher you are above the crafted items requirements, in which case, higher quality more or less becomes the norm, so that devalues higher quality items).

Quote:
Nira Muzyka Wrote:EDIT: Freyar, unless you paid them before hand, the loss would simply be the mats, in which case, it sucks, but you took the risk knowing the synth could fail, it's the same as doing it yourself, only difference being that if it succeeds you pay the person crafting it for you.

While true, the loss of materials to scammers is an unnecessary loss. I can understand a failed synth, I've had it happen twice while getting myself pushed up the weapon chain in THM, which not only used my mats, but my mainhand as well. A linkshell member did it so it was absolutely no big deal, though.

In terms of business, the loss of these materials can result in a significant loss of time and gil in the long run, and will only become worse as more people pick up this trade.

Scamming is one thing, and yes, should be quickly taken care of, an honest failed synth is just the price of business.

Freyar · **10-10-2010, 05:44 PM**

Nira Muzyka Wrote:Was this aimed at me or Asyria?

It was aimed at Asryia, you were QFT.

Nira Muzyka · **10-10-2010, 05:46 PM**

Ah, ok, just wanted to make sure Smile

Asyria · **10-11-2010, 11:34 AM**

It all goes down to two situations... And I'm not sure which you're all talking about but I think you all misunderstood what I said.

Situation A: Crafter's mats. The buyer pays gil. The crafter makes the item. If the item IS better then itis WORTH more. Simple, reasonable, logical. Calling it a scam is BS. As I said above however, an honorable crafter will offer the HQ item for a higher price AND offer to make another non-HQ item at the agreed price. If they're out of mats, tough luck... Keep in mind the Crafter gains nothing if they don't make the sale due to the item becoming too expensive. And if they do make the sale, then the buuyer paid more but also GOT more.
Advice: If you want to avoid surprises, ask the crafter to not make it HQ (spamming rapid will avoid it).

Situation B: Buyer's mats. The buyer pays by providing the mats (usually +tip). The crafter makes the item.
- If the item is HQ, too bad for the crafter. He can make gil off his own stuff, but this item doesn't belong to him since the materials didn't.
- If the crafter fails, too bad for the buyer. The crafter gains nothing by failing voluntarily since the mats are spent, so calling it a scam is BS.
Advice: give the Tip once the item is completed.

It seems to me like you're disagreeing with what I said about Situation A when you have Situation B in mind.

Nira Muzyka · **10-11-2010, 11:47 AM**

Asyria Wrote:It all goes down to two situations... And I'm not sure which you're all talking about but I think you all misunderstood what I said.

Situation A: Crafter's mats. The buyer pays gil. The crafter makes the item. If the item IS better then itis WORTH more. Simple, reasonable, logical. Calling it a scam is BS. As I said above however, an honorable crafter will offer the HQ item for a higher price AND offer to make another non-HQ item at the agreed price.
Advice: If you want to avoid surprises, ask the crafter to not make it HQ (spamming rapid will avoid it).

Situation B: Buyer's mats. The buyer pays by providing the mats (usually +tip). The crafter makes the item.
- If the item is HQ, too bad for the crafter. He can make gil off his own stuff, but this item doesn't belong to him since the materials didn't.
- If the crafter fails, too bad for the buyer. The crafter gains nothing by failing voluntarily since the mats are spent, so calling it a scam is BS.
Advice: give the Tip once the item is completed.

It seems to me like you're disagreeing with what I said about Situation A when you have Situation B in mind.

We were not talking about Situation A though, you were the one that brought that up, and that situation is completely besides the point since generally you're just going to shop around rather than ask a crafter to make it for you on the spot with their mats, the matter at hand was situation B, which your first post basically ignored.

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Crafting Scammers

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