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ArmachiA · **03-27-2015, 11:56 AM**

Look, no one is saying that the populars didn't work hard. It was an attempt to realize there are failings on both sides, which people admit and then go right back to blaming the new rpers side. No one has even said "What can we do to seem more available?"

Quote:Gonna side with the folks who believe getting into a community is a two way street, partly because I fail at it, but is my own failing no one else is responsible.

At first I agreed then it went into how Nara'to failed and not... the other side of the community. No one in here has discussed the established part of the community without going "But, really, it's not us, it's them." I'm just asking for a bit of social awareness. If it really is a two way street, admit the failings of the OTHER side too, then maybe we can find some common ground and see if anything can be fixed.

It's really not much to ask to try to see BOTH sides of the argument, here.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-27-2015, 12:00 PM**

(03-27-2015, 11:56 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Look, no one is saying that the populars didn't work hard. It was an attempt to realize there are failings on both sides, which people admit and then go right back to blaming the new rpers side. No one has even said "What can we do to seem more available?"

Quote:Gonna side with the folks who believe getting into a community is a two way street, partly because I fail at it, but is my own failing no one else is responsible.

At first I agreed then it went into how Nara'to failed and not... the other side of the community. No one in here has discussed the established part of the community without going "But, really, it's not us, it's them." I'm just asking for a bit of social awareness. If it really is a two way street, admit the failings of the OTHER side too, then maybe we can find some common ground and see if anything can be fixed.

It's really not much to ask to try to see BOTH sides of the argument, here.

Think of it as less blame as a 'what to do/what not to do'. He did say he did not intend to demonize the guy, after all. I think his words have merit, given that he openly admits to being one of the people ON that side, even if he's siding with the other.

He's in the perfect position to see and speak about it, really.

Aya · **03-27-2015, 12:00 PM**

(03-27-2015, 11:56 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: It was an attempt to realize there are failings on both sides, which people admit and then go right back to blaming the new rpers side. No one has even said "What can we do to seem more available?"

Why are you so worried about who is to blame?Â Who cares?Â I certainly don't (to be honest, I don't think there even is anyone to be blamed for anything being discussed).Â The question is how can new RPers make connections.

ArmachiA · **03-27-2015, 12:02 PM**

It's not about who's to blame.

Gees I was just talking about maybe coming to a middle and finding failings on both sides that we could fix to make the connections a little easy and better for new rpers but you all are twisting it

Nevermind.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-27-2015, 12:08 PM**

(03-27-2015, 12:02 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: It's not about who's to blame.

Gees I was just talking about maybe coming to a middle and finding failings on both sides that we could fix to make the connections a little easy and better for new rpers but you all are twisting it

Nevermind.

Coming to a middle can be done after the failings of both sides are placed on the table. Tiergan identified the failings of one side, and Iex identified the failings of the other --Â

In fact, why are there even only two sides? ANYWAY. People are posting their own perspectives and observations for people to see, examine, understand, discuss and perhaps debate. I'm sorry if it's not amounting to some sort of middle ground as of yet, but there are some truly pertinent points posted here.Â

Everyone has been civil for the most part, discussion continues, and I'm sure people are learning a thing or two, I know I am. Not everything needs to end in hugging! In my humble opinion, this is fine.

Aya · **03-27-2015, 12:10 PM**

If anything is to blame its human nature which fills us with an irrational fear of failure and rejection.Â That's what makes engaging in social interaction so difficult.Â I don't think anyone suggesting that new players try to do just that is also suggesting that its easy.Â For many of us we've pointed out that its not, it really isn't easy at all.Â Its nonetheless the very best thing that any new RPer can do for meeting people.

There is no easy route, there is no panacea.Â One can simply hope that society and community will bend their way: that others will be willing to take the leap of faith that they are unwilling, or unable to take themselves.Â Some people will get lucky, they'll be in the right place at the right time, and that is exactly what will happen.Â But suggesting that people just sit there and hope is not very helpful.

My main goal is just to try to instill some hope and optimism.Â I want people who are new to realize that they are not alone in this, that they are not the first to face these problems, that many have come before, and many have succeeded in finding the sort of interactions and friends they're looking for.Â I want them to know that there is an entire community out there waiting to meet them.Â That there are dozens of potential friends waiting just on the other side of the screen.Â That there is reason for optimism, that there is reason for persistence, that there is reason to take that risk.Â To try to put away their anxiety and their fear, to know that if they can conquer it for just a few moments, a few times, there's a good chance that they will make some connections, some of which may be lasting.

There is literally no better advice I can offer, no better suggestion I can muster.Â There is no amount of finger-wagging or head-shaking toward the community that can do a fraction of the good as successfully encouraging just one individual to try to overcome their shyness and take that leap to meet new people.Â

There is no one to blame.Â There is no magic continuum from unpopular to popular to try to make meet in the middle.Â All there is of any real use is advice, and that's what we're doing our best to offer.

Warren Castille · **03-27-2015, 12:11 PM**

I'm not sure why there has to be a middle. It might just be my pride speaking as someone who entered the community without knowing nearly anyone and having seemed to have carved my niche out, but no one met me in the middle. Making connections is about making them. There's a lot of ways to do that, but the people who are speaking up about it are the ones who did it themselves.

There seem to be two camps at discussion here: The folks not meeting new people for some reason and the folks who met new people by going out and meeting new people.

If anything, my personal failing is that a lot of new people simply don't interest me. My stories tend to be fairly tight and poorly established to allow new names in. I can't do anything for them, they can't do anything for me, so besides advertising my event (That's The Grindstone, every Saturday night at 10PM EST at Fesca's Wash in Central Thanalan!) and helping clarify questions or lore or stuff, I don't have much to offer.

Nobody is going to climb the mountain for anyone else, and so far the only people speaking up are the ones who went out with their own picks.

Also, calling people "the populars" sounds like some high school clique shit.

Sophia_Grave · **03-27-2015, 12:11 PM**

I refer back to my other post in the other thread (which I still can't quote for some reason). Where we're at now is the community meeting newer people halfway (in my opinion). The RPC is here as an amazing resource. There's dozens of FCs all offering a huge variety of flavors and RP intensities. Lore and RP etiquette questions are answered quickly, nicely, and accurately by several people. There's a couple of public events which anyone can attend, and there is now a pretty large list of mentors/people who are open to being approached whenever they're playing by anyone. I'm not quite sure what else needs to be done, other than just more of what we have now.

Aya · **03-27-2015, 12:16 PM**

(03-27-2015, 12:11 PM)Apl_Juice Wrote: There's a couple of public events which anyone can attend, and there is now a pretty large list of mentors/people who are open to being approached whenever they're playing by anyone. I'm not quite sure what else needs to be done, other than just more of what we have now.

I definitely agree!Â There are things we can do to lower the perceived risk of rejection for new people looking to make connections.Â A list of people who are explicitly approachable and happy to meet new people is a way to minimize someone's concern about rejection.Â But, in the end, they're still going to have to take that first step, broach that interaction, and introduce themselves to someone.

ArmachiA · **03-27-2015, 12:17 PM**

I shortened "the popular crowd" to "the populars" for easy typing. No need to read anymore into it.

I just don't see a problem with established people making it easier to help pave the way once their established, making easier for the next generation of rpers to, as Aya put it, feel more confident about getting out there. If there is something we can do, I want to do it and I don't think "Just go do it" will help. They don't SEE your failures, they only see your successes, "Just go do it" can look very daunting and frustrating to people at times.

(03-27-2015, 12:11 PM)Apl_Juice Wrote: There's a couple of public events which anyone can attend, and there is now a pretty large list of mentors/people who are open to being approached whenever they're playing by anyone. I'm not quite sure what else needs to be done, other than just more of what we have now.

I agree, there is help going out, in a sense, though that still doesn't solve the too timid to actually approach the people they want to approach thing. I'm not saying we should be able to find anything, but if their IS a way, I'd like to see it. If there's not, hey at least there was a discussion.

Sophia_Grave · **03-27-2015, 12:22 PM**

(03-27-2015, 12:17 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I shortened "the popular crowd" to "the populars" for easy typing. No need to read anymore into it.

I just don't see a problem with established people making it easier to help pave the way once their established, making easier for the next generation of rpers to, as Aya put it, feel more confident about getting out there. If there is something we can do, I want to do it and I don't think "Just go do it" will help. They don't SEE your failures, they only see your successes, "Just go do it" can look very daunting and frustrating to people at times.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that. I think the issue is whether or not anything further actually needs to be done. Further, no one said 'just do it'. I haven't checked, but just about everyone has offered personal experience and advice on what to do and what hasn't worked for them.

FreelanceWizard · **03-27-2015, 12:24 PM**

I don't believe MyBB lets you cross-thread quote with buttons, alas. You'd need to construct the quote tags by hand.

I'm a sinner as well, insofar as I'll say "hey, you sound interesting, let's meet up!" in Making Connections but then not say what my availability is (for those curious: Wed-Friday 7p-11p Central, Saturday 12p-4p, Sunday any time after 1p; Monday is Static Night and Tuesday is Carbontwerking night). I also make a note of the person but tend to wait for them to send me the first tell -- which I realize is not helpful, but my mind says, "hey, they're probably busy with other RPers who are more interesting to them, so don't bug them."

There is a third group to all of this, which are those who'd like more RP but already have a group that they RP with regularly. I love meeting new people and chatting with them (*waves to Clio*), but my character has no really compelling reason to go seeking out new people at bars. Additionally, she has a group of people she can interact with regularly. So, she doesn't put herself out in public locations seeking other people to talk to. Those in this group aren't exactly popular, but they're also not hurting for RP, and they may be seeking more. I'd hazard most in RP FCs probably fall into this category. I wonder what possibilities can help there? They may be an untapped resource for RP.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-27-2015, 12:25 PM**

(03-27-2015, 12:17 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I shortened "the popular crowd" to "the populars" for easy typing. No need to read anymore into it.

I just don't see a problem with established people making it easier to help pave the way once their established, making easier for the next generation of rpers to, as Aya put it, feel more confident about getting out there. If there is something we can do, I want to do it and I don't think "Just go do it" will help. They don't SEE your failures, they only see your successes, "Just go do it" can look very daunting and frustrating to people at times.

(03-27-2015, 12:11 PM)Apl_Juice Wrote: There's a couple of public events which anyone can attend, and there is now a pretty large list of mentors/people who are open to being approached whenever they're playing by anyone. I'm not quite sure what else needs to be done, other than just more of what we have now.

I agree, there is help going out, in a sense, though that still doesn't solve the too timid to actually approach the people they want to approach thing. I'm not saying we should be able to find anything, but if their IS a way, I'd like to see it. If there's not, hey at least there was a discussion.

Except that 'just go do it' wasn't what they said -- they described methods and resources. Reaching out can also mean passing on knowledge or the results of experience to others. What is being done here is a big help. Advice! Lots of it! There's quite a bit of elaboration on what it takes to 'do it'.Â

Hell, I even went into ways for people who are too timid to approach to make connections with others in a previous post, via rumor swapping and Bulletin Board posts. The good stuff is all over this thread.

Warren Castille · **03-27-2015, 12:26 PM**

(03-27-2015, 12:17 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I shortened "the popular crowd" to "the populars" for easy typing. No need to read anymore into it.

I just don't see a problem with established people making it easier to help pave the way once their established, making easier for the next generation of rpers to, as Aya put it, feel more confident about getting out there. If there is something we can do, I want to do it and I don't think "Just go do it" will help. They don't SEE your failures, they only see your successes, "Just go do it" can look very daunting and frustrating to people at times.

You know as well as anyone else that when things get heated, niceties go out the window. If something can be read into it, it almost always will.

I see your point, but I also don't see any particular reason why the folks who've spent so much of their time have to then turn around and also "do the work" for new folks. It's character building. I learned a lot about the community while doing so. I learned what works, what doesn't. I learned how to approach people. There is a difference between holding someone's hand and giving them a push in the right direction.

If there's something I can do, I'll do it. However, the definition of "something" is going to vary wildly from person to person. Could I turn over my nights to helping people feel like a new free paladin and showing them the ropes? I could, at the cost of my own roleplay and evening. I believe, and have always believed, that roleplayers are selfish by nature. It's human. We all want to do well and be loved and have that acknowledged. I admit that not wanting to mentor or coach someone in need is selfish of me. I also feel content with the path I've walked, on my own, and the reaction and presence I've established while doing so.

Again, no one else can climb the mountain for someone. I can't make anyone feel comfortable roleplaying. Hell, I've had people tell me I'm too intimidating to approach, despite constant coaxing out of character. At a certain point, I stop investing because there's no return on that. I've only ever intended on telling people about what worked for me, specifically me, and how that might not work for other people. I don't know what works for other people. I'm not other people.

You want canon-lore-recommendations? I can help. You want to fight in the Grindstone (at Fesca's Wash, at 10PM EST)? I can help. You want advice on how to people well? Sorry, man, I can't help you there.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **03-27-2015, 12:27 PM**

(03-27-2015, 12:24 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I don't believe MyBB lets you cross-thread quote with buttons, alas. You'd need to construct the quote tags by hand.

While off-topic to the thread, here's my solution for this. A helpful way to quote it is to reply to your post, switch to theÂ bbcodeÂ editor, and copy that into theÂ different-threadÂ reply to quote.Â

@Apl_Juice, this one?

(03-26-2015, 06:02 PM)Apl_Juice Wrote: I feel like the bad guy saying this, but I feel like its up to the individual to break into RP themselves, rather than the community's job.

Don't get me wrong-- we certainly have to make people feel welcomed and comfortable enough to RP, but we already do that. We RP just about everywhere aside from moar donuts, and we have this great site and wiki as a resource that holds tons of open FCs to shop through and look at. Newbies come through all the time asking about lore and RP etiquette, and those threads always, always get diverse, encouraging, and constructive answers.

I suppose the issue I want to avoid is having to coordinate too much for others. Its an absolute pain trying to manage people who seem to want good RP handed to them. I see it all the time: here, in my FC, and hell, I fall into that trap myself more often then I care to admit. RP isn't something one just signs up for; its a team effort. Its hard and completely undo-able without putting forth the effort.

I think the best thing we can do, as individuals anyway, is to make a real effort to follow-up and be open to strangers or newer RPers. People like Faye, who responds warmly to nearly every single Welcome Desk thread, or Aya, who by this point is as much a part of the Quicksand as Momodi, come to mind. Events like the Grindstone too, that occur regularly and are completely open to anyone willing to give it a go.

If we had just a little more of that, I feel like we wouldn't need a whole mentorship thing.

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