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Berrod Armstrong · **03-28-2015, 05:46 AM**

(03-28-2015, 04:39 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
(03-27-2015, 10:21 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Way I see it :

- I'm flagged as a RPer in Examine > Search info (Immediately mention I'm a RPer, and then a couple of words that mention basic themes with my character). I've gotten tells from people finding my character sexy (and one of them subsequently going pls hump your character's crotch against mine), but not anywhere near RPing.Â

- I have a Wiki, it's not linked in my search info because my experience from just having one linked in my sig nobody gives a shit. I also have a problem with integrating out-of-game stuff with in-game personally so that doesn't help.

- I've posted lots of character stuff and have heard ALMOST nary a peep from anyone (Jaques made some awesome fanart of a Bulletin Board entry I put up and that is ALL I've heard of it without actively going READ THIS THING in a LS and even then it was as an example of how much an idiot I am).

- Walking around has never worked. Like seriously. I do not know what these people who just walk around and get RP actually do but I've tried walking around and getting RP, with a grand total of jack and shit for my troubles. It'd be more efficient getting RP in a goddamn Duty Roulette than walking around.

Yes I'm frustrated. Not because I'm not getting RP (I could stand to get more personally but if things are hopping I can get my share) but because every single thing that was posted I have tried and with negative results and more personally because I'm tired of busting my ass to do something and then just not getting feedback or interest from it. Surprisingly enough because I'm heated on the forums, I am a pretty chill dude in-game. I can roll with pretty much everything.

I don't know where you people with actual "ins" are, but you aren't where I am.

The only thing that did work was complaining OOC on the forums about how much I'm trash at PvE which landed me in a LS and allowed me access to the inner workings of a group of people, which allowed me access to various contacts. Even then there's still a struggle because I'm not affiliated with anyone's plot or FC.

Speakin' of, any of you have experience bartering with tonberries?
I'm gonna be the 'badguy' here and point a few things out. See the bolded stuff? That general...manner of presenting oneself tends to turn people away. No one will say anything, but they'll likely remember and decide not to interact with you based on that alone -- ESPECIALLY the ones who are a bit more shy.Â

I'm not coming down on you or anything like that, but I feel that it is very, very important how a player presents themselves ooc. I personally read that post and found it unappealing. I personally questioned if I would want to RP with you based on the presentation of it and twisted my mouth and went 'eh'. Again, I have nothing against you as a person/player/toon/character but you're not selling anything to me there. That's just -me-, the guy who roleplays with almost anyone. Imagine for people who are more picky.

Presentation and attitude go a long, LONG way and a lot of people who may not be getting RP should perhaps examine themselves and determine if that is part of their block.

I'm quoting myself here so that we can see exactly what I said without having to scroll up. I am lazy.

My post points out the consequences of a certain type of presentation, using my own impression as an example. Everyone is entitled to their impression. It IS an issue, it IS a reason why some people avoid interacting with others, based on either experience or personal shyness. I decided to bring it up because it's one of the touchy subjects that has yet gone untouched -- despite how important it is! It happens -- so let's address it.Â

I didn't outright tell him to change his behavior, nope. I simply used it to bring up presentation as a topic. A very relevant, real topic. Ostracize is a very strong word too, because I referred to a single, personal decision, be it from me, or another player.Â

I implore you not to read more into my words than what was said.

Ilwe'ran · **03-28-2015, 05:50 AM**

(03-27-2015, 10:21 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Way I see it :

- I'm flagged as a RPer in Examine > Search info (Immediately mention I'm a RPer, and then a couple of words that mention basic themes with my character). I've gotten tells from people finding my character sexy (and one of them subsequently going pls hump your character's crotch against mine), but not anywhere near RPing.Â

- I have a Wiki, it's not linked in my search info because my experience from just having one linked in my sig nobody gives a shit. I also have a problem with integrating out-of-game stuff with in-game personally so that doesn't help.

- I've posted lots of character stuff and have heard ALMOST nary a peep from anyone (Jaques made some awesome fanart of a Bulletin Board entry I put up and that is ALL I've heard of it without actively going READ THIS THING in a LS and even then it was as an example of how much an idiot I am).

- Walking around has never worked. Like seriously. I do not know what these people who just walk around and get RP actually do but I've tried walking around and getting RP, with a grand total of jack and shit for my troubles. It'd be more efficient getting RP in a goddamn Duty Roulette than walking around.

Yes I'm frustrated. Not because I'm not getting RP (I could stand to get more personally but if things are hopping I can get my share) but because every single thing that was posted I have tried and with negative results and more personally because I'm tired of busting my ass to do something and then just not getting feedback or interest from it. Surprisingly enough because I'm heated on the forums, I am a pretty chill dude in-game. I can roll with pretty much everything.

I don't know where you people with actual "ins" are, but you aren't where I am.

The only thing that did work was complaining OOC on the forums about how much I'm trash at PvE which landed me in a LS and allowed me access to the inner workings of a group of people, which allowed me access to various contacts. Even then there's still a struggle because I'm not affiliated with anyone's plot or FC.

Speakin' of, any of you have experience bartering with tonberries?

You are quoting a lot of stuff I randomly talked about to "how to get a RPer to give the opportunity to RP with you" but you completely forgot the next part I explained which was "How to use those informations to create some new connections".
What you describe here is the first step if you want people to connect with you. Not you to connect with someone. You forgot the most important thing : Be active yourself.

- You have to link your wiki in game because not everybody is on the forum. Don't assume that because you are using the forum, everybody is and so it's not necessary.

- Walking will give to the other person the information that you are a RPer and IC. But it's the same for you if you see someone doing the same : Approach them and do something if you want a new connection. You are only indicating that you are open for RP, you aren't engaging any RP if you walk.

What you describe is mostly a passive way to obtain RP, I'm sure you did some other things, but you cannot expect to only do the step 1 and wait for others to engage some RP with you. There have to be someone who will engage it and never expect the others to do it.

How do most of people met and got close to each others ?
- FC / LS
- Events.
- Friends.
- Common plots.

Just read this and get the problem : Most of people have an occasion to meet, something that make the link and when they don't ? They create it themselves (cf. Tiergan and his offer of a free round of drinks).
Never expect the RP to come to you, go and make it possible.
While all I described on my very first post and you quoted are some things that will definitely help you and will help the people you will engage to have a positive reaction toward you, expecting this to be enough is a mistake. You have to do the rest of the job, you have to create some occasions, you have to include the other people in your character's life in a way or another and after some time, you will meet more and more some people who will know you while you never met them : People talk OOC, they will talk about you too, about how you engage others IC, about the fun they had with you and all those sorts of things. And that's when this thing happen, when that balance change between "that guy who walk near the QS and never talk" and "I met Kellach, he included my character in his plot" that the people will naturally get curious and come to you by themselves, because you, yourself and your character BECAME the bait, and when this happens ? Congratulation, people will seek for you or when you will engage them they will be all "I know you, I know what you did". That's how those some people like to call "popular" did, they actually worked hard in a way or another to get the attention of the other people, they didn't wait and expect everything to come at them.

ArmachiA · **03-28-2015, 05:51 AM**

(03-28-2015, 05:46 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: I'm quoting myself here so that we can see exactly what I said without having to scroll up. I am lazy.

My post points out the consequences of a certain type of presentation, using my own impression as an example. Everyone is entitled to their impression. It IS an issue, it IS a reason why some people avoid interacting with others, based on either experience or personal shyness. I decided to bring it up because it's one of the touchy subjects that has yet gone untouched -- despite how important it is! It happens -- so let's address it.Â

I didn't outright tell him to change his behavior, nope. I simply used it to bring up presentation as a topic. A very relevant, real topic. Ostracize is a very strong word too, because I referred to a single, personal decision, be it from me, or another player.Â

I implore you not to read more into my words than what was said.

But I made sure to use the qualifiers "Should change" not "To change" and "Can be seen as ostracizing" not "Is ostracizing"

Ostracizing is "to exclude from a group by common consent" it's not really a strong word at all. It's exactly what you said might happen. I even went through a dictionary to make sure I picked the right one.
So I'll ask you not also not read into my words anything more that's there either.

I was careful in my word choice, people tend to pick apart the smallest thing here.

If you want to talk about it, then we should all be free to discuss it. My opinion on that is - anyone who judges people based on forum posts when all we talk about is how communicative we all need to be is not really a reason for the other person to change their tone, because they aren't doing anything wrong here.

Kellach's words weren't really offensive or racist or homophobic in the slightest. They were words of frustration, which he shouldn't be judged so harshly for (Which I am not saying you ARE Berrod, but the people who would judge him based on forum activity)

Cato · **03-28-2015, 05:56 AM**

I think most people are well aware that if they want role-play they need to make an effort themselves. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but it seems like posters like Kellach are implying that they are putting effort into seeking out role-play only to meet no success at all on numerous separate occasions.

I'm in the same boat whenever I reach out to people beyond the FC I'm currently in. It's easy to brush it all off as being the fault of the person seeking role-play but in reality it isn't in every case.

It seems like a lot of people just want to move the goal posts and avoid acknowledging that the in-game community - and certain social circles on this very site - can be very frigid and difficult to interact with.

Cliques exist and are natural, I doubt anyone will contest that but there's good cliques and there's bad cliques.

To use a loose example, threads like this feel like they're the only place I can post in-depth sometimes on this site. A lot of the 'post about your character here' seem to essentially just revolve around the same group of people pointing how awesome all their friends are. It may not be intentional but a lot of threads do come off as pretty circle-jerky at times and unwelcoming to those who aren't involved in certain crowds in-game.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-28-2015, 05:56 AM**

(03-28-2015, 05:51 AM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(03-28-2015, 05:46 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: I'm quoting myself here so that we can see exactly what I said without having to scroll up. I am lazy.

My post points out the consequences of a certain type of presentation, using my own impression as an example. Everyone is entitled to their impression. It IS an issue, it IS a reason why some people avoid interacting with others, based on either experience or personal shyness. I decided to bring it up because it's one of the touchy subjects that has yet gone untouched -- despite how important it is! It happens -- so let's address it.Â

I didn't outright tell him to change his behavior, nope. I simply used it to bring up presentation as a topic. A very relevant, real topic. Ostracize is a very strong word too, because I referred to a single, personal decision, be it from me, or another player.Â

I implore you not to read more into my words than what was said.

But I made sure to use the qualifiers "Should change" not "To change" and "Can be seen as ostracizing" not "Is ostracizing"

Ostracizing is "to exclude from a group by common consent" it's not really a strong word at all. It's exactly what you said might happen. I even went through a dictionary to make sure I picked the right one.
So I'll ask you not also not read into my words anything more that's there either.

I was careful in my word choice, people tend to pick apart the smallest thing here.

Fair!

However, the issue remains. It's a thing. An unfortunate, unfair thing perhaps -- though people are entitled to their opinions and their decisions based on what they see...but still a thing. I don't think anyone was going to address it, even I didn't want to for some time, but since this is a thread of solutions, I brought it up.

What can be done about it though, therein is where the true discussion lies!

Cato · **03-28-2015, 06:01 AM**

I think the best route to solve any potential misunderstands is really to just get in touch with people in-game or shoot them a private message. I mean, a lot of people parrot the phrase 'communication is important' but that should apply across the board rather than just in regards to IC affairs in my opinion!

I just feel like it's more beneficial to do that and come to some sort of compromise/informed opinion of someone through direct interaction rather than reading into people's posts or relying on what other people say about someone.

Open minds and all that!

Domri Blackblade · **03-28-2015, 06:16 AM**

(03-28-2015, 05:42 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: But as I've pointed out before some of the people who lace their words with sugar on this site are among the most spiteful and manipulative individuals in-game and are massive drama magnets. Despite that, their popularity and perceived status as 'gud rp' tends to protect them from any direct criticism.

On the other hand, quite a few of the 'blunt' posters who may put forth controversial and unpopular opinions have, in fact, turned out to be some of the friendliest and coolest people I've met thus far.

(03-28-2015, 06:01 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I think the best route to solve any potential misunderstands is really to just get in touch with people in-game or shoot them a private message. I mean, a lot of people parrot the phrase 'communication is important' but that should apply across the board rather than just in regards to IC affairs in my opinion!

I just feel like it's more beneficial to do that and come to some sort of compromise/informed opinion of someone through direct interaction rather than reading into people's posts or relying on what other people say about someone.

Open minds and all that!

I really don't feel I understand your stance at all. You seem to contradict yourself in a few of the points you make. Forgive me because it's 6AM and I've a fever I could cook eggs on, so I'm not going to defend the capability of my thinking parts.

However, I feel you have this huge chip on your shoulder about popularity and people who see a lot of RP. Are you not judging them based off of things like forum posts or have you spoken to every person who is 'popular' on some sort of personal level? Maybe you have specifics in mind, but the way I read your posts, it could apply to people you don't mean it to apply to. Frankly, I don't know if your words are taking a jab at me due to how vague this underlying problem you have is, but that's neither here nor there. I'd just be careful about the complaining about groups in such a vague manner cause people might not know who you are applying it to.

On the other hand I think the notion of "just talk to them" is pretty much the root of everything. Take the risk, break out of your shell, challenge your shyness, and just talk to people and you will find RP. Will it work 100% of the time? No. But like Aaliyah said, "If at first you don't succeed, pick yourself up and try again."

Ilwe'ran · **03-28-2015, 06:25 AM**

(03-28-2015, 05:56 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I think most people are well aware that if they want role-play they need to make an effort themselves. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but it seems like posters like Kellach are implying that they are putting effort into seeking out role-play only to meet no success at all on numerous separate occasions.

We can't know about this, we can only assume with their answer and even there it's clear that we don't know everything. The best we can do is to actually try to answer to them and to be relevant to the topic title by giving some advices.
Kellach answered to a part of the advices I confusedly gave before and the part he picked is the most passive one, I cannot know what else he did so I can only answer to what he wrote (and thus, to talk about the part of the advices he didn't talk about).

I do agree that being new not easy and all, that there are some clique and that to break into the community isn't a simple thing to do. But there are some people who manage to do it and some others who don't. The main point of the topic is to understand why and to give some "how to" accordingly. Following this idea, many people gave some advices which are now.. Melted among the colossal amount of "around the topic" and "I answer to something someone said" messages.

Also. What I'll say will probably hurt. But stating that "it's the community fault, it's hard to break through it" and thus stating that you, yourself, did everything you could isn't the best way to solve the problem. Keep in mind that you cannot change the others, only yourself so if something doesn't work, you need to find another way to make it work. I know it's unfair, but it's how it is everywhere ^^" .

ArmachiA · **03-28-2015, 06:34 AM**

Saying "The community could stand to be a little more open." However isn't so bad.

Newbies should make an effort, absolutely. BUT this thread is about Established people helping non-established ones and you know saying "What can we do to be more open and make things easier?" iiisss kind of the point of this thread? I mean the thread does start with "How to help..." after all.

There's been some pretty good ideas around here beyond "Get out there and do it." which is absolutely 100% true advice but also something that everyone seems to know and becomes incredibly annoying to hear when you've felt you tried and it hasn't worked.

One of the issues I'm struggling with helping at all is "shy" rpers, I'm not sure there's much advice beyond "Change your entire personality" and and that's frustrating for ME. How can I help someone who's shy that isn't essentially having to hand hold them into RP or telling them to change their personality so they aren't shy anymore?

Domri Blackblade · **03-28-2015, 06:37 AM**

(03-28-2015, 06:34 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: One of the issues I'm struggling with helping at all is "shy" rpers, I'm not sure there's much advice beyond "Change your entire personality" and and that's frustrating for ME. How can I help someone who's shy that isn't essentially having to hand hold them into RP or telling them to change their personality so they aren't shy anymore?

It's not really change your personality. I'm an extremely shy person. I'm very nervous when it comes to talking to people. Hell, I've admitted to numerous people I'm intimidated by them, but the way I break out of that is tell myself, "What's the worst that could happen?"

The community has been very open and in the past month I have had little to no issue breaking into it. Every person I have spoken to has been extremely kind and very welcoming, so I guess I'm just not looking in the right areas where this supposed closed-offness is? Though, I've only been here for a month, so I can't really speak on the community as a whole, just from what I have seen as a new person diving in.

ArmachiA · **03-28-2015, 06:43 AM**

It really depends on the person. There's been a lot of threads about frustration about not being able to get into RP at all and, to the communities merit, they do attempt to help, but this really isn't about the people who succeed, this is about the ones who fail. It's great you were able to get into RP! That just isn't true for others and this thread is for helping those people.

For example: I have a Guildie who will not be around more than 4 people in an RP. This makes their RP EXTREMELY limited. They are extremely shy and saying "You just need to do it." Never seems to help. They know, obviously, they need to do it, but can't seem to muster up the courage to try. That's why I'm saying I struggle with shy people when it comes to getting them into RP, it can be fairly difficult depending on shyness and I want to help but I don't know HOW beyond two things: Saying "Go do it." or holding their hand which I don't have time for.

Domri Blackblade · **03-28-2015, 06:49 AM**

If in all honest to goodness you do as much as you can to help that person, I don't really think you are at fault. No one really should feel obligated to hold anyone's hand. I'd say just being open to the opportunity is more than enough. If someone only wants to be around the same four people, that's fine. Some people prefer closed circles. However, the problem then arises if they lay that on the community as if it is the community's shortcoming.

I'm speaking as an RPer new to the community, and with the completely subjective opinion, that I don't find it closed off. I don't think the levels of an individual's shyness can really be helped by any community. All I can do is my part and do my best to reach out to people so they can find some sort of comfort in interacting with me on an IC and OOC level.

I think that is really the best a community can offer really when it comes to the extreme side of introversion. It'd be idealistic that everyone reaches out, but the handful, and large handful, that put themselves out there that do it are doing that side of it.

I guess I don't see another side to change besides in the individual. That's just me, however.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-28-2015, 06:51 AM**

(03-28-2015, 06:34 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Saying "The community could stand to be a little more open." However isn't so bad.

Newbies should make an effort, absolutely. BUT this thread is about Established people helping non-established ones and you know saying "What can we do to be more open and make things easier?" iiisss kind of the point of this thread? I mean the thread does start with "How to help..." after all.

There's been some pretty good ideas around here beyond "Get out there and do it." which is absolutely 100% true advice but also something that everyone seems to know and becomes incredibly annoying to hear when you've felt you tried and it hasn't worked.

One of the issues I'm struggling with helping at all is "shy" rpers, I'm not sure there's much advice beyond "Change your entire personality" and and that's frustrating for ME. How can I help someone who's shy that isn't essentially having to hand hold them into RP or telling them to change their personality so they aren't shy anymore?

I admit that I occasionally handhold a shy person or two when time allows.

...well more like grasp violently and bungee jump with them in my MEATY ARMS. While yelling loudly.

At the end of the jump however, I DO let them go (they don't die, they just fall helplessly into a sea of contacts [and maybe bears]), and it's up to them to continue with what we've established. It's really all that can be done at that point.Â

Most of the time I take the 'try to grin and bear it and see what happens' approach, if only because I don't have the time or resources to help them myself at the time.Â

Other than that, I try to rumor-swap on the wiki if they have one posted up, or link them with someone else with the same issue who I know has similar interests.

Ilwe'ran · **03-28-2015, 07:04 AM**

(03-28-2015, 06:34 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Saying "The community could stand to be a little more open." However isn't so bad.

Newbies should make an effort, absolutely. BUT this thread is about Established people helping non-established ones and you know saying "What can we do to be more open and make things easier?" iiisss kind of the point of this thread? I mean the thread does start with "How to help..." after all.

There's been some pretty good ideas around here beyond "Get out there and do it." which is absolutely 100% true advice but also something that everyone seems to know and becomes incredibly annoying to hear when you've felt you tried and it hasn't worked.

One of the issues I'm struggling with helping at all is "shy" rpers, I'm not sure there's much advice beyond "Change your entire personality" and and that's frustrating for ME. How can I help someone who's shy that isn't essentially having to hand hold them into RP or telling them to change their personality so they aren't shy anymore?

Well, I came here and I primarily answered to this how to question because I thought it was important to not break through the topic without giving something people can actually do and try. Saying that the community should be more open is a thing and maybe a part of those who wrote here heard your complaints, but that topic isn't all the community, so while it might change 2 or 3 people attitude, I believe that most of those who actually came there to write and to help are also those who are already willing to include new RPer to their circle.

Now..

I'm a shy RPer. Really shy. And as bonus I'm not native english and the list of people who did hurt me with that fact along those pasts 10 years I played MMO is colossal. So I have to overcome my shyness, my fear to be judged for my english, my fear to see myself being judged because my character is a male and I'm myself a girl RPing her first male, etc. Lets say that as some other people, I have to overcome a lot of stuff that might just disrupt any attempt of RP on my side.
Also, if you read in my profile on the game, you will not read a "walk-up RP welcome" because I'm not always open for random RP and so I don't want to brush anybody who would come to me while I'm not in the mood for a reason or another (though I don't think it ever happened).

Now why do I have some connections and how do I manage to get some more : I meet the people OOC and if that click I shyly offer them to find a way to RP together (or they do, because they know I'm shy I suppose). I'm a part of some LS, I try to be at least a little active on the forum and on tumblr where I post some RP stuff from time to time. The only way I found to overcome my shyness and to make sure that the people won't become judgemental over my english is to actually know them and to make sure they know about how this english stuff is a hurtful topic for me.
And I create some occasions.
While I'm shy, I try as much as I can to include the people I would like to meet in the stories of my character when it's relevant and might lead our character to grow closer. But I always know those people OOC or - if they walk-up to me, which happen - will try to know them at some point. That's the only way I managed to get some more connections and it fits to my personality. I don't force myself to go to the QS (not native english + wall of text = panic), I go to some events and when I RP there it's mostly in party (or at least I invite the people I RP with in party so we can copy / paste there and go through the wall of text), to sum up, I try to follow my own pace and if I'm frustrated I take it on me and my own shyness.
Of course, the way I'm doing is a really slow process. But someone shy probably don't want to meet 15 persons during the week to RP with them, so maybe the best advice I can give to those is to have a character who are themselves more confident and to prepare some plots / situations that will lead you to reach out in a way or another because your character will need someone else help. Then to water this relationship the best way you can.

Also, as we are at it, this is how I help other shy RPer to meet some people they starve to meet : I drag them with me in a way or another and make them meeting that person, most of time OOC or I pm that person for them and make it happen. Helping 2 people to meet and communicate is the only thing you can do when they are just too shy to do it themselves, the rest, they have to do it, you cannot be responsible of someone else shyness if they don't take the hand you are reaching to them.

ArmachiA · **03-28-2015, 07:06 AM**

(03-28-2015, 06:49 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: If in all honest to goodness you do as much as you can to help that person, I don't really think you are at fault. No one really should feel obligated to hold anyone's hand. I'd say just being open to the opportunity is more than enough. If someone only wants to be around the same four people, that's fine. Some people prefer closed circles. However, the problem then arises if they lay that on the community as if it is the community's shortcoming.

I'm speaking as an RPer new to the community, and with the completely subjective opinion, that I don't find it closed off. I don't think the levels of an individual's shyness can really be helped by any community. All I can do is my part and do my best to reach out to people so they can find some sort of comfort in interacting with me on an IC and OOC level.

I think that is really the best a community can offer really when it comes to the extreme side of introversion. It'd be idealistic that everyone reaches out, but the handful, and large handful, that put themselves out there that do it are doing that side of it.

I guess I don't see another side to change besides in the individual. That's just me, however.

If nothing needs to change, then nothing needs to change. However the point of this thread is to discuss possible changes.

on both sides

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