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V'aleera · **04-17-2015, 02:41 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:38 PM)Ryoko Wrote: But Aya, this entire premise rests on the idea that religious zealotry is inherently racist. But the thing of it is, Ishgard really gives 0 shits what size or color you are, or whether or not you have a tail. What we currently know of Ishgard is this: They see the world as two categories of people: Believers and Unbelievers. Anything else is a minor detail.

I don't think it's realistic to presume that Ishgard is not racist at all. Everyone's racist. No matter who you are, no matter where you are. I think it would be more feasible to argue that race as a factor is simply not AS prominent in Ishgardian society as it is in places like Gridania.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 02:42 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:35 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Nobles in Ishgard are likely most or all Elezen. The four High Nobles Houses are made up of 3 Wildwood families and 1 Dudkwight. Per lore, the 4 High Noble Houses came to be because they were the friends of Haldrath, the first Azure Dragoon, and the man who defeated Nidhogg.

Other, lesser Noble Houses exist, but all of the few we've seen so far have been Elezen. Why no Hyur? Because Hyur did not integrate into Ishgardian society until roughly 450-500 years ago.

Remember Hyur came to Eorzea in three great migratory waves starting 1000 years ago. These first settlers were the Highlanders, who brought war to the Elezen. They conquered Gyr Abania from the Elezen and tried to conquer Belah'dia to the south. The first wave of Midlanders started showing up between 500-800 years ago. Now, while the Hyur and Elezen waged war across the rest of Eorzea, the Elezen of Gelmorra made peace with the Hyur who also wished to live in the Twelveswood. Â This act would later make the founding of Gridania possible. But this was the first time Hyur and Elezen had come to peace in Eorzea.

So the peace between Ishgardian Elezen and Hyur would have come later. Its possible these new Hyuran Ishgardians could have become nobility, as the lower houses and military seem to follow a meritorious system. ALord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean. So about anything seems possible in Ishgard.

These seem like reasonable conclusions based on information we actually DO have.

Sounsyy · **04-17-2015, 02:43 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:37 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:35 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Lord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn
This I didn't know. Do you recall where this is referenced?

MSQ, end of 2.5 story. I'm at work so can't look up exact quest cutscene, but Aymeric tells Alphinaud straight up that he's lowborn and worked his way into his position.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 02:45 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.
You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.

Aya · **04-17-2015, 02:46 PM**

I definitely agree that Ishgard does provide an in for those who do not meet the usual requirements to earn a position in the stratified hierarchy, in the military in particular, and likely through earning favor within an existing Elezen House.

In a sense theirÂ religious nature, and the common cause of the war against the Dravanians, will serve as a crucible in which racist tendencies are tested and broken down.Â But it does not take much to infer that in a society where power is held firmly in the hands of a racial and class elite, that they view the rest of their people through a racist lens.Â How far does this racist lens percolate down?Â That's hard to say - does the common Elezen street vendor find more in common with his Elezen House Lords or with the Hyur down the street?Â There's really no way to conjecture.

What I think is more obvious is that non-Elezen have a harder time earning their place in this society, and are met with an eye of greater judgement from Elezen officialdom.Â I am not suggesting that this is strictly the case, only that it is a natural and logical inference from the things that we do know about Ishgard.Â I think drawing the opposite conclusion would fly in the face of what we know.

Aya · **04-17-2015, 02:48 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote: And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.

Of course there isn't any evidence, if there were we wouldn't even be talking about this.Â The whole point is that this is a game that takes place in a lore-light world and we're just trying to fill in the gaps.

Marisa · **04-17-2015, 02:49 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Aya Wrote: world where racism is the norm.

And where Ishgard is the least normal of the city states. They aren't just arbitrary zealots, they are religious zealots. The NPC dialogue shows that they only care about whether or not you follow their religion.Â

This is in stark contrast to the other 3 states, where we absolutely have concrete, indisputable examples of racism. Ishgard is the only one which has thus not partaken in that.

Sounsyy · **04-17-2015, 02:49 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:35 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: ...and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean.

To my knowledge and recollection, this was not implied or confirmed anywhere, merely speculated due to appearance. Did I miss a lore drop somewhere? I probably did. :<

(Almost missed this.) Lucia has a Garlean third eye identical in appearance to Cid and Nael's. Why give her that facial model if she's not Garlean? It's not like there aren't plenty of normal Hyur models they could've used? I think SE didn't count on a Lalafellin player looking up under her circlet.

Kage · **04-17-2015, 02:50 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.
You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.

Did you miss how -none- of the lore answer ever, ever mentions a difficulty in biology? It -clearly states, AND I BOLDED FOR YOU, -cultural- differences. CULTURAL. It can't be any clearer. They even make a point of MAKING A 3.0 QUEST, IMPLYING ISHGARDIAN ISSUE, about a cross-racial couple.

You mean, how elezen and hyur have been in bloody racial wars?

What is more proof than Lore answers from lore peoples?

(04-17-2015, 02:34 PM)Kage Wrote:
Quote:Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?
-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

Quote:Cross-racial?
-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more â€œprogressive.â€ Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesnâ€™t happen a lot. Itâ€™s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.

Taken from this thread answered almost 4 years ago

Quote:Can different races crossbreed?

Answer: Yes, but it is rare...and often difficult due to cultural differences, etc. which is why you don't see it often. The lore team has informed me that there will be future quests/events that touch on this and other issues, such as love and marriage.

Edit: I'm truly not understanding the walling about it. Is this, "well that's a mainly Eorzean case, I'm talking about Ishgard."

If it's Ishgard, where I assume these issues have come about, isn't this supportive? Isn't the fact that Fern has made a point, that the dev team has made a quest in 3.0 about cross-racial couples being an issue, supportive? Not to mention the fact that they've said in these answers that it's cultural.

Marisa · **04-17-2015, 02:51 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:38 PM)Ryoko Wrote: But Aya, this entire premise rests on the idea that religious zealotry is inherently racist. But the thing of it is, Ishgard really gives 0 shits what size or color you are, or whether or not you have a tail. What we currently know of Ishgard is this: They see the world as two categories of people: Believers and Unbelievers. Anything else is a minor detail.
I don't think it's realistic to presume that Ishgard is not racist at all. Everyone's racist. No matter who you are, no matter where you are. I think it would be more feasible to argue that race as a factor is simply not AS prominent in Ishgardian society as it is in places like Gridania.

Well I'm honestly not arguing against there being any racism. I play my own character as being hated for being a half-breed.Â

However, the claim was made that Ishgard practices extreme and systematic racism, which is absurd.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 02:53 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.
You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

No, the statements straight up say that crossbreeds are possible... but don't happen all that often because interracial couples are rare. Not due to the difficulty in conception, but because the races do not like each other. There is bad blood between the races. This is being directly stated in the quotes, which Kage has actually bolded for emphasis.

EDIT: Man, getting beaten to the punch time and time again here.

Aya · **04-17-2015, 02:54 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:51 PM)Ryoko Wrote: Well I'm honestly not arguing against there being any racism. I play my own character as being hated for being a half-breed.Â

However, the claim was made that Ishgard practices extreme and systematic racism, which is absurd.

It is not absurd at all.Â It is entirely reasonable given the environment of the world, and what we know about Ishgard.Â It fits the rubric.Â Because of the focus upon religion and the war against the Dravanians there are routes to earn positions of respect and authority within the military, but the firm grip of Elezen upon the levers of power does not seem to be threatened.

Warren Castille · **04-17-2015, 02:56 PM**

For the sake of making this not drag on for thirty pages, let's just all agree to autocorrect "racism" to "discrimination."

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:01 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:46 PM)Aya Wrote: I definitely agree that Ishgard does provide an in for those who do not meet the usual requirements to earn a position in the stratified hierarchy, in the military in particular, and likely through earning favor within an existing Elezen House.

In a sense theirÂ religious nature, and the common cause of the war against the Dravanians, will serve as a crucible in which racist tendencies are tested and broken down.Â But it does not take much to infer that in a society where power is held firmly in the hands of a racial and class elite, that they view the rest of their people through a racist lens.Â How far does this racist lens percolate down?Â That's hard to say - does the common Elezen street vendor find more in common with his Elezen House Lords or with the Hyur down the street?Â There's really no way to conjecture.

What I think is more obvious is that non-Elezen have a harder time earning their place in this society, and are met with an eye of greater judgement from Elezen officialdom.Â I am not suggesting that this is strictly the case, only that it is a natural and logical inference from the things that we do know about Ishgard.Â I think drawing the opposite conclusion would fly in the face of what we know.

Based on?

We can go around and around about this all day, honestly, but in the end you're asserting an awful lot with little-to-no information to back up anything you've said. Are some of your assertions -plausible-? ...Maybe. I don't think they are likely in the way that you are putting them, though.

For example:Â

Quote:I definitely agree that Ishgard does provide anÂ inÂ for those who do not meet the usual requirements to earn a position in the stratified hierarchy, in the military in particular, and likely through earning favor within an existing Elezen House.

We don't know for sure that all the houses in Ishgard are Elezen and/or that only Elezen are part of the aristocracy. What we DO know is that Elezen are the majority population, thus increasing the chances that they will reach 'station' by population density alone.

Quote:In a sense theirÂ religious nature, and the common cause of the war against the Dravanians, will serve as a crucible in which racist tendencies are tested and broken down.Â Â ButÂ it does not take much to infer that in a society where power is held firmly in the hands of a racial and class elite, that they view the rest of their people through a racist lens.Â How far does this racist lens percolate down?Â That's hard to say - does the common Elezen street vendor find more in common with his Elezen House Lords or with the Hyur down the street?Â There's really no way to conjecture.

This is a romantic notion but that's all it is. There's no evidence of any cultural racism within Ishgard.

Quote:What I think is more obvious is that non-Elezen have a harder time earning their place in this society, and are met with an eye of greater judgement from Elezen officialdom.Â I am not suggesting that this is strictly the case, only that it is a natural and logical inference from the things that weÂ doÂ know about Ishgard.Â I think drawing the opposite conclusion would fly in the face of what we know.

It only flies in the face of what we know if we accept the very little we do know as the 'end all; be all'. Luckily that would be irrational and something that most people would avoid doing. Does your opinion that "It is likely that non-Elezen may have a harder time advancing in society" a possible and probable one? Yes, if not just from population density then from cultural examples of the Elezen seeming to be primarily the ones in positions of power. Is that evidence of racism? Still no. It MIGHT be argued that there is a class-privilege issue, though, but I won't back that horse without some more data.

Quote:Of course there isn't anyÂ evidence, if there were we wouldn't even be talking about this.Â The whole point is that this is a game that takes place in a lore-light world and we're just trying to fill in the gaps.

We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun.

So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.

Marisa · **04-17-2015, 03:05 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:54 PM)Aya Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:51 PM)Ryoko Wrote: Well I'm honestly not arguing against there being any racism. I play my own character as being hated for being a half-breed.Â

However, the claim was made that Ishgard practices extreme and systematic racism, which is absurd.
It is not absurd at all.Â It is entirely reasonable given the environment of the world, and what we know about Ishgard.Â It fits the rubric.Â Because of the focus upon religion and the war against the Dravanians there are routes to earn positions of respect and authority within the military, but the firm grip of Elezen upon the levers of power does not seem to be threatened.

And it's certainly possible, because we absolutely don't have the full picture. So, as you said, all we can do is speculate.Â

My problem is that a lot of folks are taking what is essentially just a theory, and declaring it to be the set-in-stone truth.Â

And even if that theory turns out to be true in the future, "extreme and systematic" would be an exaggeration. At most, being a non-elezen in Ishgard would be more similar to being an Arab American post-9/11. The Elezen are not conducting their own holocaust.

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Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

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